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TheresaMary
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:33 am      Reply with quote
Also with the uglies, you can get them from skin remodellers like CPs and Retin A. I have seen my fair share of uglies with Retin A which I have used for over 30 years now and at different times and in different places, and thats part of the process sometimes too!
Nonie aka AD wrote:
So I concur with daler that uglies are not a necessary preamble to getting good results. One can get good results without having to go through the "ugly" phase. Maybe it depends on the program one does, but I know two that don't involve uglies.
daler
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:43 am      Reply with quote
Hi TheresaMary, you forgot to quote the IMO part of my comment!!! I dont claim to be know it all u know..lol...

"just pay attention to the changes in your face and if you dont like any, dont do exercises which pronounced that feature and do em less often... and pls dont believe in the " it gets ugly before better " thing as it's not the case when it comes to F exercises, IMO "

by the way I should have said that " it SHOULD not be the case " instead of " it is not the case...."

Also, I truly think that people should be able to avoid the uglies for everything, eg. retinA uglies can be avoided or at least kept to the minimum by using it sparingly in the beginning and starting at .025% n not .1% etc... again, it's only IMO...
TheresaMary
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:46 am      Reply with quote
Sorry Daler, you did put the IMO but when I think of myself, its rare when you are on the search that you read everything.

Actually with Retin A, and CPs etc, sometimes the uglies just canít be avoided because the skin is going through an adaptation mode. The only point I was trying to illustrate was that when we sometimes think things are getting worse its simply not the end result that is yet to come. If I think back to when I started using Retin A, I had flakiness etc the first few years, and sure enough as the years went on sometimes awkward things came up and sometimes they didnít but there was no consistent pattern. I used to drive my derm mad with questions and calls (but heís known me for a very long time so didnít seem to mind). Thatís the point I was illustrating.

Any program with facial exercises has the potential to deliver awkward results depending on the persons face, age, etc. So I think that it can be quite scary if you are reading something and see a comment like yours. If I was young now, and saw something like that I would run a mile but thatís just me personally.
daler wrote:
Hi TheresaMary, you forgot to quote the IMO part of my comment!!! I dont claim to be know it all u know..lol...

"just pay attention to the changes in your face and if you dont like any, dont do exercises which pronounced that feature and do em less often... and pls dont believe in the " it gets ugly before better " thing as it's not the case when it comes to F exercises, IMO "

by the way I should have said that " it SHOULD not be the case " instead of " it is not the case...."

Also, I truly think that people should be able to avoid the uglies for everything, eg. retinA uglies can be avoided or at least kept to the minimum by using it sparingly in the beginning and starting at .025% n not .1% etc... again, it's only IMO...
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:36 am      Reply with quote
no problem TheresaMary...

btw,i have been using it for like 4/5 months and get irritations/flakiness/redness and then I stop using it for a couple of days.. good to know that RetinA can cause irritation even for years as I was wondering why my skin is not get used to it already!
TheresaMary
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:36 am      Reply with quote
Well my derm has had me on gels, creams and microgels, and I am on microgel and I swear by that. Originally the gel used to make me flake all the time. I think I used to flake every couple of years so I wouldn't sweat it. Its all a sign its doing its thing! Even nowadays I have some periods where I get flaking.
daler wrote:
no problem TheresaMary...

btw,i have been using it for like 4/5 months and get irritations/flakiness/redness and then I stop using it for a couple of days.. good to know that RetinA can cause irritation even for years as I was wondering why my skin is not get used to it already!
Nonie aka AD
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:28 pm      Reply with quote
TheresaMary wrote:
Nonie

Daler says ÔŅĹdont do exercises which pronounced that feature and do em less often... and pls dont believe in the " it gets ugly before better " thing as it's not the case when it comes to F exercisesÔŅĹ ÔŅĹ now having had over 10 years worth of facial exercises and having started at a much older age than you are, I think its pretty important to reliterate what every program out there says which is to work all the muscle groups - not just ones you think is problematic. So to me, its easy to see how people would misinterpret that which is what I was addressing. Even TomÔŅĹs and CarolynÔŅĹs program which you follow aim to work all the muscle groups so IÔŅĹm a little surprised by your comment but hey they are only the program originators and perhaps you and Daler know much better than them. For me, Carolyn started at the same age as me and its harder for us oldies, and it might indeed be easier for people much younger like yourself.

I also got to commend Loulou here big time because she was one of the first to properly address why you want to less frequently work out some muscle groups (although she still suggests to work them) with proper theory behind it.

However, with the uglies, I think thatÔŅĹs already been proven thatÔŅĹs only your experience. IÔŅĹve read both TomÔŅĹs forum, and here and have found that the programs you follow have given others uglies and less favourable results ÔŅĹ and Eva FraserÔŅĹs program has had mixed reviews also. I started out with EvaÔŅĹs stuff and met the lady and think she is fantastic, but I donÔŅĹt think there is any one size fits all despite what you would try to have us believe.

Theresa


CORRECTION: I am not the only person who has not had uglies with face exercises. Daler is one example or she would not be of the opinion that face exercises DO NOT HAVE TO CAUSE UGLIES. Also with Tom's exercise, the only complaint I have heard about is Monkey Mouth which is also a complaint of people using the Facial Flex gadget. I do Tom's workout and I don't have monkey mouth (and I discovered the workout in 2005); neither does Tom; neither does that girl who posted a series of her progress pics. So again, Daler's words ring true: one does not have to have the uglies. IMO keeping in touch with the trainer makes a huge difference.

Actually, you tell an untruth when you say that every program that works all muscles is problematic. No, what is problematic is a program that AIMS to work all muscles but overworks some or works some incorrectly. I have already shared what I think of an eye exercise that has caused UGLIES for everyone who has done it and it is a bad program. So it's both a combo of bad exercise or exercises that work certain areas at the expense of others that can cause uglies. Also user error can be to blame, especially in the case where only ONE person has been known to have issues. You know clearly that is not the case with me. Which is why the phrase "awkward phase" was coined to explain the issue when it is part and parcel of a program where this happens.

About Eva's program, I have seen the mixed reviews, but don't try to twist them to give the impression that they mean people get uglies. What I have heard about Eva's program is it didn't give the results people wanted. Meaning, it didn't work for them. Not that it created uglies. People go to the program expecting certain changes, they don't get them, they stop the workout. I started it young at 20 and Eva started late in her 50's, we both have had good results as have all the others who like the program. Those that don't say they didn't because they either hit a plateau and wanted something more (Sean) or it just didn't work for them or they were just looking for more of a challenge.

Loulou talks about uglies because she encountered them at FE and so perhaps her program had a similar foundation and so uglies are part of the program, which is why she knows about them. You don't see Tom, Carolyn or Eva talking about them because they haven't encountered them EVEN THOUGH THE LADIES STARTED THE WORKING THEIR FACES LATE IN LIFE. So when one starts working the face has nothing to do with whether they will have uglies or not. Read the reviews on Carolyn's site. You will see many talking about how uglies they got elsewhere went away with CFF. And many of the reviewers are not young.

Also if you remember TheresaCats who is the only one I know who had problems with CFF, she wrote that Carolyn was shocked it happened to her because Carolyn had never come across that before. Another thing she also didn't do was return to Carolyn when things started to go south. It wasn't until I implored her to, which is what I would do, and what I did when one program gave me the uglies ie turn to the author, that she did. After Carolyn gave her new exercises, she initially seemed to like them but later shared she wasn't satisfied with their results. I don't know if she kept in touch with Carolyn or not after that. But do not make it sound like uglies are things everyone complains about in every workout because that is not the truth.

Ageless and FE have a lot of posts all over the Net so if uglies are part of the norm, then people like alabamagirl might come across their mention and believe that it is the case with all. It isn't. In fact, it should be made clear that working the whole face is the safest way to avoid uglies and that with some programs, even with one doing so, uglies may happen. BTW I've seen you advise people of the importance of doing complete programs not spot training (which is also my belief) so I'm not sure when it is you changed your tune and started sharing that it is doing that that will cause the uglies. Color newbies confused.
Nonie aka AD
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:52 pm      Reply with quote
TheresaMary wrote:
Also with the uglies, you can get them from skin remodellers like CPs and Retin A. I have seen my fair share of uglies with Retin A which I have used for over 30 years now and at different times and in different places, and thats part of the process sometimes too!


This is common knowledge that skin remodeling topical products can cause uglies. It is discussed ad nauseum and it is why I have never touched them and have decided to only do face exercises. Why? Because until I did FE, face exercises did not have to take me through the uglies as part of the journey. To me, that is not a trip I want to be on. So I do avoid anything that claims that to be a necessary part of the journey. I stick with face exercises because that is not the case.

If I had encountered uglies with CFF or Eva, I would have shared them and I would especially not have freaked out as I did a week into FE and through the 4 months when I called and called and emailed and PMed FE author and trainers asking for help because I was experiencing horrors I had never encountered in the 15 years I did Eva. In those 15 years, I never once contacted Eva because I had no issues whatsoever with her program. If I had believed (or experienced) that uglies are part of the journey with face exercises, I would have shared that if only to encourage others. But what I do share is what I know. That you can do a good program and get results w/o there ever being issues.

Now because I have had uglies from doing a face exercises program that I initially believed in; and because I even believed in the claim that this was just a phase I had to go through, so I stuck with it even as things got worse trying to give it a chance till I realized nothing came of it, I can admit that uglies can be found within the world of face exercises. My face was worse than it had ever been by the time I realized that this program was not going to deliver what it promised. And because of that experience, I now know that uglies are real and that there are programs that will give them. But I do believe that has more to do with the program than it being a rule for all.

I no longer believe that "working harder" will get you through the uglies as I was led to believe. I do believe that to keep doing the same thing expecting different results is madness. And I believe this because I lived it. I share this experience because it happened and because I have come out of it a winner and I want others who might experience this to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I share how I came out of that nightmare because my experience might help another. I do not claim ALL programs are void of uglies. I have done 4 programs with enough devotion to know them well and feel comfortable giving a review on them and one of those had uglies as the norm--and others have shared the same so I know it is a fact. But I maintain that uglies are not necessarily part of the process and should not be something people accept as being the norm in all face exercises.
alabamagirl
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:30 pm      Reply with quote
Hi everyone,

I so appreciate the responses and sorry it took so long to get back. I have spent HOURS every night looking at old EDS threads, trying to get up to speed. Got so wrapped up in that, I forgot to check new posts. Laughing

I started face exercises today, although my program may not be popular with other forum members. I am doing the video on you tube about "exercise from the neck up." (found link in an old EDS thread) Only a few scrunching kind of face movements but I've overcome my fear.

I also ordered a few face exercise books and a facial accupressure book from amazon. I've been doing the Tanaka massage, along with a few others, most days.

I'm 54 so I've waited rather late to start, but it was encouraging to see I'm not the only one to do so. (thanks TheresaMary)

If the dreaded uglies do come, I will back off doing them a few days and reassess what the problem might be.

Thank you so much to all posters for the knowledge you share!

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riverdance
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Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:07 pm      Reply with quote
Hi TM, I'm glad to see you've found the right program that has given you the best results!! Would you mind sharing which one you chose and why? Also, could you reviews of the others you've tried? I certainly don't want to enter into any FE program that gives me the uglies....I have enough of that going on before even starting Laughing
TheresaMary
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Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:27 am      Reply with quote
Ok sorry I stand correct Nonie. You and Daler speak for everyone!

As for telling untruths, I have emailed TheresaCats who I am hoping will come on board and tell the real truth not the half baked story you are trying to tell people. She did go to Carolyn when things went south, and was told to solider on (Iím paraphrasing here those werenít her exact words). I also want to point out that the eye exercise that you say has caused uglies for everyone actually doesnít appear to be doing so (not for me, nor half the people who use that program). Again though I forgot you can speak for everyone!

As for twisting Evaís program, ,this is where you and I need to get serious. Iím not twisting anything at all, one just has to read amazon to see things for what they are. Reviews are there go figure.

Actually Loulou doesnít describe the FE uglies, she talks about some muscles responding, and when they do they puff up like the forehead which is why she doesnít recommend them to be done regularly but only ocassionally. You need the book to understand it properly.

Iíve not changed my tune and resent you trying yet again to twist things completely out of proportion. Iím here to share my experiences, and everyone is entitled to that without the fear of getting a borage of attacks from bullies!
Nonie aka AD wrote:
CORRECTION: I am not the only person who has not had uglies with face exercises. Daler is one example or she would not be of the opinion that face exercises DO NOT HAVE TO CAUSE UGLIES. Also with Tom's exercise, the only complaint I have heard about is Monkey Mouth which is also a complaint of people using the Facial Flex gadget. I do Tom's workout and I don't have monkey mouth (and I discovered the workout in 2005); neither does Tom; neither does that girl who posted a series of her progress pics. So again, Daler's words ring true: one does not have to have the uglies. IMO keeping in touch with the trainer makes a huge difference.

Actually, you tell an untruth when you say that every program that works all muscles is problematic. No, what is problematic is a program that AIMS to work all muscles but overworks some or works some incorrectly. I have already shared what I think of an eye exercise that has caused UGLIES for everyone who has done it and it is a bad program. So it's both a combo of bad exercise or exercises that work certain areas at the expense of others that can cause uglies. Also user error can be to blame, especially in the case where only ONE person has been known to have issues. You know clearly that is not the case with me. Which is why the phrase "awkward phase" was coined to explain the issue when it is part and parcel of a program where this happens.

About Eva's program, I have seen the mixed reviews, but don't try to twist them to give the impression that they mean people get uglies. What I have heard about Eva's program is it didn't give the results people wanted. Meaning, it didn't work for them. Not that it created uglies. People go to the program expecting certain changes, they don't get them, they stop the workout. I started it young at 20 and Eva started late in her 50's, we both have had good results as have all the others who like the program. Those that don't say they didn't because they either hit a plateau and wanted something more (Sean) or it just didn't work for them or they were just looking for more of a challenge.

Loulou talks about uglies because she encountered them at FE and so perhaps her program had a similar foundation and so uglies are part of the program, which is why she knows about them. You don't see Tom, Carolyn or Eva talking about them because they haven't encountered them EVEN THOUGH THE LADIES STARTED THE WORKING THEIR FACES LATE IN LIFE. So when one starts working the face has nothing to do with whether they will have uglies or not. Read the reviews on Carolyn's site. You will see many talking about how uglies they got elsewhere went away with CFF. And many of the reviewers are not young.

Also if you remember TheresaCats who is the only one I know who had problems with CFF, she wrote that Carolyn was shocked it happened to her because Carolyn had never come across that before. Another thing she also didn't do was return to Carolyn when things started to go south. It wasn't until I implored her to, which is what I would do, and what I did when one program gave me the uglies ie turn to the author, that she did. After Carolyn gave her new exercises, she initially seemed to like them but later shared she wasn't satisfied with their results. I don't know if she kept in touch with Carolyn or not after that. But do not make it sound like uglies are things everyone complains about in every workout because that is not the truth.

Ageless and FE have a lot of posts all over the Net so if uglies are part of the norm, then people like alabamagirl might come across their mention and believe that it is the case with all. It isn't. In fact, it should be made clear that working the whole face is the safest way to avoid uglies and that with some programs, even with one doing so, uglies may happen. BTW I've seen you advise people of the importance of doing complete programs not spot training (which is also my belief) so I'm not sure when it is you changed your tune and started sharing that it is doing that that will cause the uglies. Color newbies confused.
TheresaMary
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Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:29 am      Reply with quote
Hey alabamagirl thats excellent. You are going to love what they can do for you!
alabamagirl wrote:
Hi everyone,

I so appreciate the responses and sorry it took so long to get back. I have spent HOURS every night looking at old EDS threads, trying to get up to speed. Got so wrapped up in that, I forgot to check new posts. Laughing

I started face exercises today, although my program may not be popular with other forum members. I am doing the video on you tube about "exercise from the neck up." (found link in an old EDS thread) Only a few scrunching kind of face movements but I've overcome my fear.

I also ordered a few face exercise books and a facial accupressure book from amazon. I've been doing the Tanaka massage, along with a few others, most days.

I'm 54 so I've waited rather late to start, but it was encouraging to see I'm not the only one to do so. (thanks TheresaMary)

If the dreaded uglies do come, I will back off doing them a few days and reassess what the problem might be.

Thank you so much to all posters for the knowledge you share!
TheresaMary
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Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:30 am      Reply with quote
Hi Riverdance

I donít do any one program in its entirety because I know my face really well, and also some exercises work well for me and some donít so I tend to do those that give me results and mix and match. Plus I like trying new things at times (Yamuna ball is a good example). As for reviews of other programs Iíve tried, I think Iíve probably tried the lot of them, but to write reviews is difficult for me, because theyíve all given me different results at different times.
Tessie
riverdance wrote:
Hi TM, I'm glad to see you've found the right program that has given you the best results!! Would you mind sharing which one you chose and why? Also, could you reviews of the others you've tried? I certainly don't want to enter into any FE program that gives me the uglies....I have enough of that going on before even starting Laughing
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Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:48 pm      Reply with quote
TheresaMary wrote:
Ok sorry I stand correct Nonie. You and Daler speak for everyone!


No actually we don't speak for everyone. I love how you switch up things and try to confuse matters. You said to me "However, with the uglies, I think thatís already been proven thatís only your experience." Meaning I am the only person who has not experienced uglies. I CORRECTED that claim by pointing out that I am not and mentioned Daler as another person who hasn't. Carolyn also hasn't. And I don't believe Tom has either. Nor do I think Eva has. In other words, I am not the only person who hasn't encountered uglies. In fact there are so many people that one would have to read all of CFF's 39 pages of reviews to see a lot of other people who have not had uglies. In fact, here are a few who had uglies from other programs but CFF didn't give them uglies:

See MJ's review here: http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/facial-exercises-reviews/page-3

See Anonymous' review here:
http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/facial-exercises-reviews/page-4

See Bernice H's review here:
http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/facial-exercises-reviews/page-7

And there are 39 pages of such awesome feedback with no uglies. So contrary to what you may have people think, not all programs give uglies. And when a program has such a smart and caring instructor who knows how to adjust the workout depending on the person's needs, and who is always doing research to improve her program, then people tend to avoid uglies--especially if they stay in touch and keep reporting back on what they are seeing or where they would like to see better improvement.

And just so you can see what I mean about Carolyn giving bonus exercises not to fix an ugly but rather to enhance the results people already have, here is Dakota who was so pleased with her progress she sent her photos to Carolyn for the before/after page: http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/dakota

And then just in recent months, she must have gotten some bonus exercises that made her so happy that she wrote the review shown at the bottom of this page:
http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/facial-exercises-reviews/page-2

So there you have it, not everyone gets uglies. Maybe we're just lucky. Smile

TheresaMary wrote:
As for telling untruths, I have emailed TheresaCats who I am hoping will come on board and tell the real truth not the half baked story you are trying to tell people. She did go to Carolyn when things went south, and was told to solider on (Iím paraphrasing here those werenít her exact words). I also want to point out that the eye exercise that you say has caused uglies for everyone actually doesnít appear to be doing so (not for me, nor half the people who use that program). Again though I forgot you can speak for everyone!


I am not telling half-baked stories about TheresaCats, and if I got anything wrong, it's not intentional as you seem to want to make people believe. It was a while back when I spoke to her and IIRC she had given up on contacting Carolyn because she felt Carolyn wasn't being helpful. I sent her a PM encouraging her to contact Carolyn and we exchanged a lot of emails and I distinctly remember her thanking me for imploring her to contact Carolyn because Carolyn gave her new exercises to try.

TheresaCats wrote:
Just wanted to say whilst things haven't improved just yet - I owe a huge thanks to Nonie aka AD. She sent me a really nice PM and has been really encouraging to me. We've exchanged emails and I feel much more positive in it. I've also had emails from Carolyn, so it does look like theres hope after all. I'll post on here when I start seeing developments but just had to say a big thank you to them both!


So unlike you who says stuff that you cannot back up, I don't. I may not be perfect and may make mistakes but I do try to stick to the truth, and my record on this forum has been I can back up everything I say. So yes, TheresaCats can come and correct me where I got it wrong. And if I did, I will stand corrected. But I have the PMs and emails--which I have not looked at since back then, which is why I'm open to correction coz I may have forgotten some details. Smile

TheresaMary wrote:
As for twisting Evaís program, ,this is where you and I need to get serious. Iím not twisting anything at all, one just has to read amazon to see things for what they are. Reviews are there go figure.


I will admit I had not looked at reviews on Amazon. I found review for her newer edition book 3 of those gave her 5 stars; 3 gave her 3 stars but none talked about getting uglies. You may all take a look and see:
http://www.amazon.com/Frasers-Facial-Workout-Penguin-Fitness/product-reviews/0140147136/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt_sr_3?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addThreeStar&showViewpoints=0

(Although it won't surprise me if there is suddenly a talk of "uglies" by phantom posters who suddenly remembered that they had some. Rolling Eyes

I looked up another posting of her book and again she gets 5 stars from one person and then gets two stars from someone who didn't understand the program:

http://www.amazon.com/Eva-Frasers-Facial-Workout-Fifteen/product-reviews/0380716143/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

So once again I have just proven that you tell a half-baked truth when you imply that people have talked of uglies with Eva's program by saying "However, with the uglies, I think thatís already been proven thatís only your experience. Iíve read both Tomís forum, and here and have found that the programs you follow have given others uglies and less favourable results Ė and Eva Fraserís program has had mixed reviews also." And by going to the website YOU suggested would show the mixed reviews that would show that I am wrong in claiming your are twisting things, I just proved that you were because I do tell the truth when I say that people who have done Eva and not liked it didn't get uglies, but rather they just didn't find it to give them what they wanted. Very different from your implication that uglies are found in the workout. And for someone who claims to know Eva, you really are a disappointment spreading stuff that isn't accurate. SMH

TheresaMary wrote:
Actually Loulou doesnít describe the FE uglies, she talks about some muscles responding, and when they do they puff up like the forehead which is why she doesnít recommend them to be done regularly but only ocassionally. You need the book to understand it properly.


And nobody said Loulou describes FE uglies NOW. But when she was on FE, she did talk about awkward stages. So my point was, uglies are something she is familiar with and she was a trainer on FE where uglies were part of the process and so she was one of those people trying to help those on FE who complained about them figure out how to fix them. So her being able to explain why uglies occur is because she has been around them long enough. That was my point. And when I say you changed your tune, I'm talking about this:

TheresaMary wrote:
Iíve not changed my tune and resent you trying yet again to twist things completely out of proportion. Iím here to share my experiences, and everyone is entitled to that without the fear of getting a borage of attacks from bullies!


Borage? You mean barrage. Do not make me laugh! I think everyone can see who's the pot and who's the kettle--the evidence is all over the forum so I'll just let those who don't know ask those who do or just take a look for themselves. If there's one thing I have HAD to do since I joined this forum is defend myself against a barrage of attacks that tried to prove me a liar but failed miserably because a liar I am not. So try another..., it might ring. Wink

As for you changing your tune, what I mean is on the one hand you give this advice:

TheresaMary wrote:
I definitely think you can enhance things, and build cheekbones where there are none and lots of youngens seem to do just that using the programs out there. The only thing I think I woudl add is that its important not to try to figure out it yourself. If you do a program, follow it through. When I first started out, the internet wasn't around much, and nor was it used heavily like it is today (and I was a complete technophobe in the beginning too), and so many of the things I share I kind of wish someone had told me when I started out because it would have saved me a lot of time!


...and this advice

TheresaMary wrote:
Mansi

If you are willing to do facial exercises then by far you want to do a program that hits all the facial muscles, not just target muscles. I know originally you mentioned hooded lids, and I kind of think they can be an exception because its just the lid itself you are talking about and perhaps the forehead, but when you start talking about cheeks, lips etc, because the muscles all are ribbon like and interwine round one another, yu need to exercise them all. I donít think you should attempt to target one area, as thatís what you will read a great deal about called spot training and is always a bad idea because it becomes uneven looking. Instead, work your whole face.


...which sounds to me like you are advising people that the right thing to do is a full program that targets all muscles to avoid getting bad results. And then in yesterday's post you wrote:

But then on the other hand, in disagreeing with Daler's suggestion that things don't have to get worse before they get better, you wrote:

TheresaMary wrote:
Nonie

Daler says ďdont do exercises which pronounced that feature and do em less often... and pls dont believe in the " it gets ugly before better " thing as it's not the case when it comes to F exercisesď Ė now having had over 10 years worth of facial exercises and having started at a much older age than you are, I think its pretty important to reliterate what every program out there says which is to work all the muscle groups - not just ones you think is problematic. So to me, its easy to see how people would misinterpret that which is what I was addressing. Even Tomís and Carolynís program which you follow aim to work all the muscle groups so Iím a little surprised by your comment but hey they are only the program originators and perhaps you and Daler know much better than them. For me, Carolyn started at the same age as me and its harder for us oldies, and it might indeed be easier for people much younger like yourself.

I also got to commend Loulou here big time because she was one of the first to properly address why you want to less frequently work out some muscle groups (although she still suggests to work them) with proper theory behind it.

However, with the uglies, I think thatís already been proven thatís only your experience. Iíve read both Tomís forum, and here and have found that the programs you follow have given others uglies and less favourable results Ė and Eva Fraserís program has had mixed reviews also. I started out with Evaís stuff and met the lady and think she is fantastic, but I donít think there is any one size fits all despite what you would try to have us believe.

Theresa


It's possible I'm not following your argument because I don't know what your line "I am surprised by your comment" is referring to. Actually I just realized I have no idea what your first paragraph was talking about. LOL

So yes, it is possible I got the wrong end of the stick. Feel free to clarify. Or not. Either way, it's fine by me.
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:10 am      Reply with quote
Nonie it never surprises me your responses, and the energy and efforts you go to. Its a shame as I do sometimes think you are a nice person, but then other times when I get an onslaught of things from you it just really puts me off you.

I've emailed Theresa. She did thank you, but the point I was making was that I know she contacted Carolyn originally when she had the results and was advised to continue and not given additional exercises. She sent me emails and the whole reason she came to EDS was due to the fact I emailed her back and forth encouraging her to get other opinions. My recollection (which is hazy so could be wrong but I'm hoping she will clarify) is that she didn't get the "new" exercises till after she wrote on EDS about her situation.

As for others not experiencing uglies with Eva Fraser, I persoanlly know people who like me had sessions and experienced uglies, or if you want to call it now awkward results then fine - they experienced awkward results.

I am never going to see eye to eye with you, and you seem to want to nitpick at all my posts which is fine - eat your heart out. TheresaCats responded to my email last night and says she is coming on the forum to respond and iron out the misunderstandings and she was surprised by some of your comments too. I'll let her clarify them and any misconceptions you are trying to make factual.
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Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:37 am      Reply with quote
Sorry for the delay in getting here. I got emailed from Therseamary so wanted to clear up confusion. For the record, since going public on EDS Iím now more convinced than ever that facial exercises are not for youngsters under 50 without any sagging etc. I have only done one program, and thought I had researched that enough myself in the beginning but since I went public with my experiences I have had numerous emails and messages from people who have done many different programs and not just the one I tried but this convinces me even moreso that facial exercises are not for everyone no matter what the owners try to tell people.

Nonie, Iím a little surprised at you saying that I didnít go to Carolyn, as we had emailed each other quite a bit when I came onto EDS. For the record - I went straight to Carolyn when I started getting results, and took photos and shared them with her alongside with my fears. I was told to continue on with the program and have faith and that there would be improvement. I stupidly followed that advice and things got progressively worse. At one point my boyfriend even made a comment which crushed me and I was almost suicidal at that time because I had created damage. Now when I first came onto EDS I was desperate looking for any sign of hope that I could undo what I had done. So I have to say a big thank you to TherseaMary who did help me out on another forum and persuaded me to post here. When I posted though, I had no way of knowing just how many people had been duped into believing that facial exercises were suitable if you had no problems. I certainly didnít have prior to facial exercises. Nonie too was helpful in pointing me towards Tom Haggertyís program which I started doing again desperate for results.

Carolyn did as Nonie says say she was surprised as that had never happened before, and kindly did offer me some exercises from a program she was creating for young people that didnít involve pulling/stretching of the skin (which Iím still not a believer is a good thing to do). I donít know if she ever did create that program, but I do know that when I first started out with those exercises I was trying to convince myself there was some improvement. What was equally surprising was that many people who owned that program began messaging me asking me for those exercises. At first I thought they might be competitors just trying to get hold of the ďnewerĒ exercises, and would suggest they emailed her directly. I even emailed Carolyn to say I had those messages and shared a few of the usernames who had messaged me, and she said to me that they had never been in contact.

Anyhow the good news I can say is that my eyes are now sorted. I went and spoke to a plastic surgeon nearer the time, and he gave me his views on what had happened which is that I had damaged the tissue underneath my eyes. Well Iíve had a lower eyelid lift. Iím not going to lie, it was the most painful procedure Iíve ever had in my entire life and not one that I would go through again in a hurry, but after the healing happened and the swelling went down my eyes are looking better than ever.

So really until we get real scientific proof that facial exercises will not create permanent damage I would suggest youngsters without issues who want to maintain what they have stay away from them. I started reading up on things, and facial exercises work by creating damage, although it is very small. If someone is wanting to age well, then damaging their faces and muscles is plain crazy. What is more is that you run the risk of creating damage that only surgery can repair.

Theresa
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Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:35 am      Reply with quote
Wow Theresacats - I am sooo sorry to hear that you were unable to reverse the damage from facial exercise. I do believe as I've shared before that certain skin types DO NOT respond well to stretching and pulling. I know my skin would not. In a post on Ageless if you Dare Forum, one of the long-time EDS members, Jasminerosey posted this about her experience with Ageless and I do feel this sums it up quite sucinctly. (By no means am I suggesting that you go back to facial exercise, I am just speaking about her explanation as to why it fails for some.):

Quote:
everyone's skin is different...in tradional medcine/skin care from india..everyone is classified into 3 dosas..vata, pitta and kapha (most people have a predominant dosa with some characteristics of another dosa as well)...vata has the thinnest, driest most easily wrinkled skin... kapha has the thickest most naturally lubricated skin...obviously what will work well for a kapha type skin..or even a pitta type skin will not work for a vata type skin..no matter what these other dosa type people will tell you.

so yes, especially if one is vata (and as we age we all become a liitle more vata..as aging itself can be classified as vata) it definetely is possible to get more wrinkles by doing facial exercises..and, no, they do not necessarily go away as you rebuild your muscle...although almost everyne will tell you that they will...so the trick, imo, is not to give up facial exercise but to adapt them to your own skin type.

i def got cheek wrinkles on my previously unwrinkled cheeks frm doing ageless..i began doing ageless at age 64....and no..they didn't come from anything else i was doing..and no, they did not go away as my cheek muscles built up..which they def have...and i could tell from the beginning..i could see those wrinkles were going to be permanent....


While no-one seemed to understand her posting, I believe her words spoke volumes. I too feel my skin has always been on the thin side. So I would have most certainly fit into the vata/pitta combination category even in my late 20s to early 30s. In fact, I remember an esthetician commenting to me about my skin being too delicate when I was in my twenties but at the time I didn't understand what she meant. SO I am 100% with you on this. I think what many people on this forum don't quite understand is that this forum is for sharing experiences with the intent to help others, and they let personal agendas get in the way. I'm sorry you had to experience that, as well as suffer thru the pain of surgery to reverse your under-eye issue. I do hope that you are able find something more natural that works for you going forward. Many members have decided to jump on the microcurrent band wagon as the skin is not pulled, stretched or stressed and in many instances responds quite well to this gentle form of returning the muscles to their natural position... That might be something for you to consider going forward. However, most plastic surgeons and dermatologists will not agree that it works, but I don't see any evidence of it being detrimental in any way. I am using a small portable unit that is working quite well for me and I do very little facial exercise now although I did not use a program that involved any manual pulling or stretching of the skin. All the best, Aprile Very Happy
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Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:44 am      Reply with quote
Thanks Aprile. I do think you are right, and the more people that speak up and share their experiences the sooner I think we can dispel this myth thatís being created which I do not believe at all.

I think Jasmineís post actually gives our own postings and experience even more proof. Especially if she had done them and nothing else and got cheek wrinkles and yet feels they got stronger. Thatís just further proof for me that facial exercises are not for everyone and especially if someone who takes care of themselves as Iím guessing Jasmine does has wrinkles because of a program Ė thatís something others may be getting and just thinking its them whereas its probably happening for everyone.

Thank you for speaking up Ė and let others now feel comfortable to share their experiences too as in my opinion thatís the only way we can get to the bottom of this. Facial exercises are not for everyone in my book for sure. Skin is not designed to be pulled and stretched on our faces and anyone who tells you otherwise needs to be able to back it up with scientific proof.
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Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:15 am      Reply with quote
TheresaCats wrote:
For the record, since going public on EDS Iím now more convinced than ever that facial exercises are not for youngsters under 50 without any sagging etc.


Hi TheresaCats, I m sorry that you didnt have a good experience with Facial E... however I dont agree with this statement, i guess it's case by case basis n not universally true... I am 35 n been very very happy with face exercises.. and you can imagine that at age 35 I didnt have many problems to begin with ie no major sagging or anything like that but face E have made my face look more toned & lifted, and healthier than before... I wont want other people on the younger side not to explore face exercises and their benefits, so just wanted to express my opinion.. one just has to be v careful n pay close attention to the changes in one's face before it's too late and thus I dont believe in " it gets ugly before better " thing when it comes to face E... just my humble opinion.. Also,I try my best to avoid wrinkling my skin during the exercises by placing my fingers strategically, no matter how many times n how many gurus try to convince me/us that it ll not causes permanent wrinkling.... and I always do exercises on a well moisturized face...
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Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:01 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Daler,

I see you posted the remainder of Jasminerosey's post... Btw, I certainly didn't mean to omit it...I just didn't want to paste her entire post. I really just wanted to share what she wrote about the "different skin types", which seemed to explain what Theresacats experienced. Suffice it to say, facial exercise doesn't work the same way for all skin types. I also think it's very important for people to know and understand what could potentially happen if they happen to fall into the thin skin type category - particularly with all of the stretching and pulling some programs incorporate. Like I said, even younger people can have thinner skin. Theresa's experience should serve as a lesson for all. Jasminerosey obviously felt the risk/reward scale was tipped more in favor of reward to reduce facial sagging. However, the wrinkling "side effect" she experienced should not be minimized. All in all, I feel this should be viewed by all as a healthy discussion and not bashing programs or taking sides...because that's not what this is all about. Best, Aprile Smile
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Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:05 pm      Reply with quote
aprile wrote:
Hi Daler,

I see you posted the remainder of Jasminerosey's post... Btw, I certainly didn't mean to omit it...I just didn't want to paste her entire post. I really just wanted to share what she wrote about the "different skin types", which seemed to explain what Theresacats experienced. Suffice it to say, facial exercise doesn't work the same way for all skin types. I also think it's very important for people to know and understand what could potentially happen if they happen to fall into the thin skin type category - particularly with all of the stretching and pulling some programs incorporate. Like I said, even younger people can have thinner skin. Theresa's experience should serve as a lesson for all. Jasminerosey obviously felt the risk/reward scale was tipped more in favor of reward to reduce facial sagging. However, the wrinkling "side effect" she experienced should not be minimized. All in all, I feel this should be viewed by all as a healthy discussion and not bashing programs or taking sides...because that's not what this is all about. Best, Aprile Smile


Hi Aprile, no I did not post the remainder of Jasminerosey's post, in fact I don't even know who she is! I posted my own thoughts and experience's for others.... btw, I dont follow any particular program or guru, so I have no sides to pick here.. and sure it's a healthy discussion.. to get both sides heard...
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Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:08 pm      Reply with quote
TheresaCats wrote:

Nonie, Iím a little surprised at you saying that I didnít go to Carolyn, as we had emailed each other quite a bit when I came onto EDS. For the record - I went straight to Carolyn when I started getting results, and took photos and shared them with her alongside with my fears. I was told to continue on with the program and have faith and that there would be improvement. I stupidly followed that advice and things got progressively worse. At one point my boyfriend even made a comment which crushed me and I was almost suicidal at that time because I had created damage. Now when I first came onto EDS I was desperate looking for any sign of hope that I could undo what I had done. So I have to say a big thank you to TherseaMary who did help me out on another forum and persuaded me to post here. When I posted though, I had no way of knowing just how many people had been duped into believing that facial exercises were suitable if you had no problems. I certainly didnít have prior to facial exercises. Nonie too was helpful in pointing me towards Tom Haggertyís program which I started doing again desperate for results.


TheresaCats, it's been a while since we "talked" and now that you have jogged my memory, I do remember that prior to you giving up, you had been in touch with Carolyn and appreciated her speedy responses. And yes I do recall you saying that Carolyn told you that she had never heard of what happened to you happen to someone else (IIRC you thought she thought it was all in your head). Hence my stating that you didn't find her helpful. IIRC you stopped contacting her until I implored you to reach out to her again. What sticks out in my head is that when you contacted her while we were chatting, she gave you new exercises, which you didn't have before. That is what stood out in my head and is probably why I forgot that you had contacted her more than just once from the getgo way before. I beg your pardon for that omission, and thank you for clarifying.

TheresaMary when it comes to nitpicking, I think you have me confused with someone else. Wink I just like to share the truth and to correct misinformation or clarify stuff where I can. And unlike you, I am usually able to cite the sources for the stuff I say. You just say hear say and as we've seen so far, when you have cited sources, they have just confirmed what I was sharing. So yeah, if you say it wrong, I might just correct it. If you say it right, I will give you the thumbs up. Smile
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Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:46 am      Reply with quote
Daler thatís cool that you donít agree, and this is for sharing all experiences. Now you raise a point thatís most interesting. You say one has to be v careful and pay close attention to the changesĒ and I agree with you. The Worst before it gets better thing is just plain crazy to me and I see nothing to back it up. Also I agree with you that its best to avoid wrinkling Ė yet in almost all the programs Iíve seen they have you create creases/wrinkles and so you may have been lucky and found one that says this, but I suspect this is something you knew first before doing them. Whereas to me I purchased a program that I believed was good and wouldnít cause problems. I donít have science or biology knowledge so was looking for a one stop shop so I could avoid learning muscles and where they are, etc and so just could do the routine without fuss.
daler wrote:
TheresaCats wrote:
For the record, since going public on EDS Iím now more convinced than ever that facial exercises are not for youngsters under 50 without any sagging etc.


Hi TheresaCats, I m sorry that you didnt have a good experience with Facial E... however I dont agree with this statement, i guess it's case by case basis n not universally true... I am 35 n been very very happy with face exercises.. and you can imagine that at age 35 I didnt have many problems to begin with ie no major sagging or anything like that but face E have made my face look more toned & lifted, and healthier than before... I wont want other people on the younger side not to explore face exercises and their benefits, so just wanted to express my opinion.. one just has to be v careful n pay close attention to the changes in one's face before it's too late and thus I dont believe in " it gets ugly before better " thing when it comes to face E... just my humble opinion.. Also,I try my best to avoid wrinkling my skin during the exercises by placing my fingers strategically, no matter how many times n how many gurus try to convince me/us that it ll not causes permanent wrinkling.... and I always do exercises on a well moisturized face...
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Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:59 am      Reply with quote
Hi Nonie, thanks. Actually Carolyn contacted me out of the blue when I posted on EDS. Prior to that I got the impression that she was thinking it was only in my mind, despite the fact I had photographs to show the changes. Everyone else I showed the photos to noticed the differences straight away so I knew it wasnít in my mind, but yep that was annoying. She did share some new exercisese with me, but they were very difficult to understand and were non-resistance based which I do think is better for younger people without problems.
Nonie aka AD wrote:
TheresaCats, it's been a while since we "talked" and now that you have jogged my memory, I do remember that prior to you giving up, you had been in touch with Carolyn and appreciated her speedy responses. And yes I do recall you saying that Carolyn told you that she had never heard of what happened to you happen to someone else (IIRC you thought she thought it was all in your head). Hence my stating that you didn't find her helpful. IIRC you stopped contacting her until I implored you to reach out to her again. What sticks out in my head is that when you contacted her while we were chatting, she gave you new exercises, which you didn't have before. That is what stood out in my head and is probably why I forgot that you had contacted her more than just once from the getgo way before. I beg your pardon for that omission, and thank you for clarifying.
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Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:41 am      Reply with quote
Hi Daler - Oh I actually thought you were giving your impression of what Jasminerosey posted. That's too funny... Anyway, so that I don't confuse anyone or appear like I am leaving anything out, I am going to repost her complete post here about her experience with the Ageless program. In the end, she DID feel it was worth the tradeoff that I previously mentioned. And truth be told, I tend to agree with her that "some" wrinkles can be preferable to sag. Also, I'm sure higher cheeks DID make her appear younger and more attractive in many ways. BUT, I think perhaps this wrinkling could have been avoided with different hand positioning, etc., and we SHOULD NOT discount skin type EVER. So to sum it up, I think the common thread here is that Jasminerosey and Theresacats were both told by others that adverse effects were unusual or that it would get better, i.e., you need to work through the "awkward stages" before you get to the other side...and that is where the problem exists. Further, in both cases, those negative side effects could not be reversed. Best, Aprile

Here is Jasminerose (aka Jasminerosey's) full post:

Quote:
everyones skin is different...in tradional medcine/skin care from india..everyone is classified into 3 dosas..vata, pitta and kapha (most people have a predominant dosa with some characteristics of another dosa as well)...vata has the thinnest, driest most easily wrinkled skin... kapha has the thickest most naturally lubricated skin...obviously what will work well for a kapha type skin..or even a pitta type skin will not work for a vata type skin..no matter what these other dosa type people will tell you.

so yes, especially if one is vata (and as we age we all become a liitle more vata..as aging itself can be classified as vata) it definetely is possible to get more wrinkes by doing facial exercises..and, no, they do not necessarily go away as you rebuild your muscle...although almost everyne will tell you that they will...so the trick, imo, is not to give up facial exercise but to adapt them to your own skin type.

i def got cheek wrinkles on my previously unwrinkled cheeks frm doing ageless..i began doing ageless at age 64....and no..they didn't come from anything else i was doing..and no, they did not go away as my cheek muscles built up..which they def have...and i could tell from the beginning..i could see those wrinkles were going to be permanent....

at the time i decided that i would prefer the wrinkles to having my face sag...and i still feel the same way....after about 6 months i really started getting compliments about how i looked..so built up cheek muscls really trump wrinkles in others eye is my experience....and imo one can still be beautiful with some wrinkles but facial sag is anther issue entirely.

also..it was suggested to me at the time..not by lou lou..who i love..but who gave me the facial exerciser's 'party line' that the wrinkles would go away as my muscles got stronger and the skin laid over them better...but from another ageless exerciser on the ageless forum..she held her skin taut with one hand..wherever she was exercising at the moment..and used her other hand to pinch the skin...i now use this technique with massage as well as facial exercising...it stops the skin from creasing while yu do the exercises

hope this info helps..i really can't respond to any questions though or possible pm's since we are leaving for india ina few days and i am sooo busy ...but i did read this thread to relax a little..and i felt i needed to give you some info you ight not get from anyone else on this thread that might be helpful.
Smile
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Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:00 am      Reply with quote
Iím so pleased Jasminerosey is back, as I have always loved her posts and learned a lot from her.

I donít do any one program, never have and never will because my face is my own, and its different from each program creator that Iíve used, and thatís true for almost all of us. Iíve got fair old celtic skin (which Iím proud of) and just want to share my experiences too for what its worth Aprile. I do believe skin type is important, but saying that we need to work our skins to improve them. For me, when I started out Ė even with non-aggressive programs where I would hold gloves (care of Facial Magic or Eva Fraser) I would get very red from where I gripped in places. Nowadays I can grip for all I want and no marks, but had I not done that who knows how my skin would have aged. The gripping and then making an expression using cotton gloves in my opinion definitely helped my skin to become firmer, stronger and thicker although thatís just personal opinion and I have no factual or science evidence to prove it.

With what both Jasminerosey and Theresacats have experienced, they have my huge sympathies, because it is horrible. However though I canít help but wonder aloud (and I could be wrong here) if they both stuck with the programs they were on would their results have been different. Note Iím not saying WORK HARDER, simply stick with the program.

Now another thing that jumps to mind is that with wrinkles, are we being unrealistic in expect that facial exercises can get rid of them? I think so. For me skincare is major important too. I think our skin needs help for sure, but in conjunction with facial exercises not instead of. I donít know what Jasmine or Theresa were using, but these are other areas that definitely make a difference as Iíve seen on my own face during the time Iíve done facial exercises when I havenít used things.

Iíd be interested to know if Jasmine also spoke to Loulou for her opinion on that too. As Loulou seemed to maintain in the older days that wrinkles were as a result of the muscles being pumped up and then the skin drapping around them (think a table cloth example was used but could be wrong here for what its worth).

Just additional food for thought. Please I donít want to stop anyone from sharing experiences of any sort whether positive or negative but just want to add some things to think about!
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