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Let's Make a List / Name That Fantastic Active

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rileygirl
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:23 pm      Reply with quote
I would like your thoughts on 2 ingredients that I see mentioned a lot.

1. Aloe vera. Claims to build collagen. From the reading I did, they were talking wound repair and I still question if that is the same as repairing a wrinkle. (See this thread for links and discussion on this already. PG 2 of the thread will provide the links.)

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=43880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=aloe+vera&start=25

2. Hyaluronic acid. Dr. Pickart does not like this ingredient and he thinks it wets the outer skin proteins, which damages the skin barrier. (Reverse Skin Aging, 2nd edition, pg 53 - if you don't have his book, this information is on the skinbiology website if you care to look.)

Oops, looks like I goofed. You wanted new actives. Sorry. Still if you have an opinion on the above, I would appreciate it.
Firefox7275
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:19 pm      Reply with quote
TOPICAL ALOE
Leaving out all the wound healing references already posted, in no particular order and all up for being ripped to shreds .... Just don't expect me to justify why I saved the links until I have reread them myself! Laughing

Aloe Vera: A Short Review (2008)
Includes mechanism of actions for various properties and is full text.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2763764/
Acemannan stimulates gingival fibroblast proliferation; expressions of keratinocyte growth factor-1, vascular endothelial growth factor, and type I collagen; and wound healing (2009)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19372635
Aloe vera: Nature's soothing healer to periodontal disease (2011)
Full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3200013/?tool=pubmed

ORAL ALOE
Effect of Aloe vera preparations on the human bioavailability of vitamins C and E (2005)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16323295
Dietary Aloe Vera Supplementation Improves Facial Wrinkles and Elasticity and It Increases the Type I Procollagen Gene Expression in Human Skin in vivo (2009)
Full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2883372/?tool=pubmed
Aloe vera oral administration accelerates acute radiation-delayed wound healing by stimulating transforming growth factor-β and fibroblast growth factor production (2011)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21396624


ALOE IN VITRO
Evaluation of antioxidant potential of aloe vera (Aloe barbadensis miller) extracts (2005)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14664546
Influence of Aloe polysaccharide on proliferation and hyaluronic acid and hydroxyproline secretion of human fibroblasts in vitro (2010)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20226148
In vitro study of the PLA2 inhibition and antioxidant activities of Aloe vera leaf skin extracts (2011)
Full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3045348/?tool=pubmed

MISC FOR KEEN FOLKS
Not scientific, some very dodgy information combined with verifiable stuff. Needs a lot of trawling through and cross checking IIRC.
http://wholeleaf.com/aloeverainfo/aloeverapolysaccharide.html
http://wholeleaf.com/aloeverainfo/aloeverahealingproperties.html
http://www.aloevera-juice-benefits.com/wrinklereducingaloegel.html

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rileygirl
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:21 pm      Reply with quote
Ok then, yes, include copper peptides, but the GHK and the 2nd generation. I am using copper peptides (the SkinSignals cream, which includes both 1st and 2nd generation) and the GHK cream. I like the feel of both of these on my skin, but it is way too soon to see any visible results. (sorry my time is limited with work and school, so see this thread for a ton of links and already had discussion. http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=37951&highlight=copper+peptides+science)
rileygirl
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:10 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:

I think aloe vera is a great place to start. Tons of evidence that it has superb effects, not just skin. Polyphenols, similar to green teas, many mechanisms of action. antioxidants, etc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3261067/?tool=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263051/?report=printable

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3141305/?report=printable

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702677/pdf/11130_2009_Article_107.pdf



Ok. My question was not on the benefits of aloe vera, but on its supposed collagen building. And, I thought we were talking Topical, not internal ingestion.
From yours studies:

1. The present study shows the scavenging activity of the whole leaf extracts of A. ferox in ethanol, methanol, acetone and aqueous extracts. The activity was high in ethanol, acetone and methanol extracts, but low in aqueous medium, indicating their antioxidant potential. The observed results suggest further analyses to confirm its prophylactic effect in the treatment of free radical-mediated diseases. Most antioxidant activities depend on the amount of the phytochemicals present in the plants. Although the contents of most phytochemicals evaluated are not very high but synergistically boost the antioxidant activity of the whole leaf extracts of A. ferox. Thus the plant had potent antioxidant properties to curtail progression of radical related diseases and thereby give credence to the traditional usage of A. ferox extract.

So, basically it is a good antioxidant. Nothing here about collagen building, unless I missed something and please point out if i did.

2. The reputable Aloe vera or Aloe barbadensis has been scientifically proven for all forms of burn, be it radiation, thermal, or solar. It has also been demonstrated that it has a prophylactic effect if used before, during, and after these skin damaging events. Clearly, the plant is mainly used for its soothing and cooling effect; however, the plant is useless if used at less than 50% and it is recommended that it is used at 100% to be sure of any beneficial effect. The polysaccharides, mannose-6-phosphate, and complex anthraquinones all contribute synergistically to the benefits of this material. The natural chemical constituents of Aloe vera can be categorized in the following main areas: Amino acids, anthraquinones, enzymes, lignin, minerals, mono- and polysaccharides, salicylic acid, saponins, sterols, and vitamins. Aloe vera not only improved fibroblast cell structure, but also accelerated the collagen production process. Aloe vera is a uniquely effective moisturizer and healing agent for the skin (both human and animal!!!)

One little blurb on collagen production taken from this book: Barcroft A, Myskja A. Aloe Vera: Nature's Silent Healer. London: BAAM Publishing Ltd; 2003.

3. The test results indicate that the moisturizers improve the skin hydration and appearance on daily use. Significant improvement was seen after the 3rd week of short period of study in the skin conductivity and the method employed seems to be easy and efficient. The statistical analysis of the experimental data was carried out by one-way analysis of variance (ANOVA) and the differences were considered as statistically significant at 95% confidence level. It was found that the formulations containing wheat germ oil and Aloe vera extract produced higher skin hydration as compared to the formulations containing them separately. The mechanism predicted was humectants mechanism along with the occlusive layer formation on the skin by the formulations.

So, it is a good moisturizer and can improve the look of skin due to its hydrating the skin. Nothing here about collagen either?

4. Supplement that mainly focuses on green tea with a propriety blend of "fruits, vegetables, and aloe concentrate".

Not interested in supplementation. Again, I thought we were talking Topically applied skin care ingredients. And, I am interested specifically in the collagen production.

Bottom line just from my quick reading is that aloe is an antioxidant and a moisturizer. So far, nothing impressive here as there are a lot of good antioxidants and moisturizers out there!
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Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:38 am      Reply with quote
Firefox, why should WE bring in references and links? Just go and see on Bulk Actives or Skin Actives and there are the main sources of info we lay people have access to without turning skin care into a full time job.
Cytokines sound interesting, sure, but it's a generic term just like 'hormones' and a potential new buzz word to sell overpriced skin creams with too many promises. The proof is always in how it holds up on actual skin. Lots of stuff works a treat in vitro but you don't find out the flip side until you get a dried out wrinkled patch because YOUR skin does not like vit. C. Now that is information that, IMO, is just as vital as any peer reviewed study on hairless mice.
Cytokines sound sexy where old work horses like oils and vitamins etc do not. Look how a term like 'DNA repair' or 'telomeres' can boost the price of serum, without delivering any other results than good moisturization. A topic like this on a forum like this could be a 'when in vitro met in vivo' including hilarious fake scenes. Just my 2 cts.
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Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:22 am      Reply with quote
Firefox, I don't see the point in collecting articles and links for dr J., as I believe he must be quite au courant because of his job.
What we are getting here are a list of actives that WE, potential clients, know and like, and a view of the kind of knowledge we have of them. Very interesting marketing data if you ask me. Look at the way soy is 'discussed' by dr J - through lots of references to estrogen, and the obvious genistein references, which have led to a plethora of soy products in both skin care and menopause relief pills. It's stating the obvious. But topicals are not just about in vitro results, but also about both delivery and dosage. These are the hard to find things I would like to discuss, simply because there is a lot of b.s. out there referring to interesting research but with very little practical value. And I'm sorry, love to read the geek stuff but what I am after is results.
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Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:07 am      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
You all seem to have a different understanding of the word discuss in the context of science than I do; Jom asking for a long list of actives to be expanded upon is not discussing, it's seeking to be spoonfed. Asking about is a one way download, discussion is a two way dialogue. For everything but cytokines WE should be contributing references and links as per the OP. I don't see how the OP could have been any clearer than it is. But have it your way, it's your thread to bleed DrJ dry as you see fit.


Sorry Firefox, but I'm not understanding where you're coming from. I've belonged to this Forum for about six years and during that time most of the discussions I've taken part in have been about the effectiveness (or not) of various actives etc. All this is nothing new. Then along comes DrJ - an expert in the field of skincare, a medical scientist who is in the process of developing an anti-aging serum, a doctor who is so passionate about what we put on our skin he has a website dedicated to revealing the truth about topicals - who is asking US for information about actives and asking US for the relevant research (I mean no disrespect DrJ). But isn't that asking to be spoon-fed? And then we get told by you not to ask DrJ anything because we will be "bleeding him dry". All seems a bit ridiculous to me. Why on earth shouldn't Jom pick the good doctor's brains, given his knowledge and dedication to truth in skincare, without being made to feel like a parasite.

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Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:15 am      Reply with quote
As for staying on topic. The title of this thread is Let's Make a List/Name That Fantastic Active. So what we have so far is:

Aloe Vera
Hyaluronic Acid
Copper Peptides
Soy
Niacinamide
Glucosamine

Ok, carry on!

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Barefootgirl
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Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:26 am      Reply with quote
Bless you Keliu for your summation for keeping this going free of drama, lol.

BFG
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Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:29 pm      Reply with quote
I have to agree with Barefootgirl. Trying to discuss all actives on one thread is like trying to heard cats.

For example, DrJ, you give CPs 3/5. And yet CPs have been one of the most contentious actives discussed here. The famed "uglies" aside, CPs have been blamed for irreparable skin damage by numerous members. I don't know how many threads there are here on CPs, but one thing is for sure - there is absolutely no agreement on their efficacy.

When I mentioned Niacinamide and Glucosamine I should have said that I combine them in one serum. References can be found here: http://www.bulkactives.com/abstracts/glucosamine.htm Yes, it's a seller's website, but the references are clinical studies.

I think what Firefox wants to achieve here is a database (with research) of affective actives in one thread. But all this information is contained throughout this Forum in lengthy threads in which nobody agrees on anything anyway. Then you have to factor in the varying reactions of different people, skin type, age etc. Plus some people choose only to use organic/natural actives and refuse to apply anything to their skin which has been developed in a lab.

The skincare industry is a minefield of contradictions. If someone can sum it all up in one thread - we'd all be eternally grateful, then we wouldn't need to be wasting all our money and time experimenting with things that don't work. But I just don't think it's something that can be summarized successfully.

The only solid active with a history of efficacy I can think of is Retin-A. But even that has its detractors. And if we were to discuss all of the relevant information on that drug - we'd be here for weeks without discussing anything else.

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Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:02 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
THE SCIENCE SUPPORTING SOY ISOFLAVONES

Research suggests that estrogen deficiencies following menopause may contribute to signs of aging in skin. Systemic and topical estrogens have been shown to counter these effects and to have antioxidant properties. Although much weaker, soy isoflavones (phytoestrogens) have been shown to mimic estrogen and to have antioxidant effects, making them ideal for use on maturing skin.

AGING SKIN AND HORMONAL FLUCTUATIONS

As humans age, the skin becomes dry, loses its elasticity, and begins to wrinkle — these are the primary visible effects of chronological aging. Following menopause 1-3 it has been shown that skin thickness decreases and collagen levels in the skin diminish, which may further contribute to these negative age-related changes in the skin. Scientific studies strongly suggest that these changes may be attributed to menopausal and/or age-related hormonal fluctuations. More specifically, research suggests that estrogen deficiency may
primarily be responsible.

ESTROGEN: A CRUCIAL PART OF THE AGING EQUATION

Estrogen works by joining with estrogen receptors in the body and signaling genes in cells to be switched on or off. Flipping these switches can cause the body to generate new cells or to produce special substances. For example, raised estrogen levels can cause breast growth during pregnancy, as well as the production of milk following pregnancy. Following menopause, the body stops producing much estrogen. Although the exact mechanisms are unknown, this reduction in estrogen is believed to contribute to decreases in skin thickness, dryness, and loss of elasticity.

Estrogen receptors have been detected in the skin, and systemic 2,4 and topical 5,6 estrogen have now been shown to increase skin thickness, increase collagen levels, and improve wrinkling and dryness.7,8 While estrogen is important, researchers also believe that decreased estrogen levels are only part of the aging equation; free radical attack caused by exposure to environmental elements like sunlight, smoke, and pollution also contributes to premature aging in skin. Antioxidants can help counter these effects by neutralizing free radicals, and estrogens are strong antioxidants with even stronger activity than vitamin E and vita min C. 9-11

SOY ISOFLAVONES: AN ALTERNATIVE TO ESTROGEN

Soy isoflavones are phytoestrogens, substances that mimic the activity of estrogen. The estrogenic effect of phytoestrogens is considerably weaker than estrogens, but is appreciable 12 and both oral and topical application of phytoestrogens have
been shown to have many beneficial effects for the skin. In addition to estrogenic activity, soy isoflavones have antioxidant properties,13,14 and like other antioxidants, help to prevent free-radical damage to DNA.

Soy-containing foods may contain as much as 1/1000 of their content as phytoestrogens and are credited with the\ low incidence of cardiovascular disease15-17 and breast cancer18 in Asian populations that consume large amounts of these substances.19,20 Phytoestrogens have also been effective for preventing skin cancer in mice, both orally21 and topically.22

GENISTEIN: BENEFITING SKIN

Genistein is the most abundant isoflavone in soy, and there is a strong body of research supporting the benefits genistein provides the skin. Genistein is a strong antioxidant 23,24 and may be effective in preventing cancer. Although its exact anticancer mechanism is unknown, genistein has been proven to protect against sunburn in humans 25 and to block the formation of reactive oxygen species. The antioxidant effect of phytoestrogens is also synergistically enhanced in the presence of vitamin C. 26 This makes soy isoflavones an ideal alternative to estrogen therapies, and perfect for use on maturing skin.

SUMMARY

Soy isoflavones or phytoestrogens mimic estrogen behavior and may have beneficial effects in maturing skin. Estrogen deficiencies in post-menopausal women may contribute to decrease of skin thickness, dryness, and loss of elasticity and it is believed that topical application of soy isoflavones may help counter some of these negative age-related changes.


REFERENCES

1. Brincat M, Moniz CJ, Studd JW, Darby A, Magos A, Emburey G,
Versi E. Long-term effects of the menopause and sex hormones on
skin thickness. British Journal of Obstetrics & Gynaecology 1985;
92:256-259.
2. Castelo-Branco C, Duran M, Gonzalez-Merlo J. Skin collagen
changes related to age and hormone replacement therapy. Maturitas
1992; 15:113-119.
3. Affinito P, Palomba S, Sorrentino C, Di Carlo C, Bifulco G, Arienzo
MP , Nappi C. Effects of postmenopausal hypoestrogenism on skin
collagen. Maturitas 1999; 33:239-247.
4. Maheux R, Naud F, Rioux M, Grenier R, Lemay A, Guy J, Langevin
M. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study on the
effect of conjugated estrogens on skin thickness. American Journal
of Obstetrics & Gynecology 1994; 170:642-649.
5. Brincat M, Versi E, O’Dowd T, Moniz CF, Magos A, Kabalan S,
Studd JW. Skin collagen changes in post-menopausal women receiving
oestradiol gel. Maturitas 1987; 9:1-5.
6. Varila E, Rantala I, Oikarinen A, Risteli J, Reunala T, Oksanen H,
Punnonen R. The effect of topical oestradiol on skin collagen of
postmenopausal women. British Journal of Obstetrics &
Gynaecology 1995; 102:985-989.
7. Dunn LB, Damesyn M, Moore AA, Reuben DB, Greendale GA.
Does estrogen prevent skin aging? Results from the First National
Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES I)
[see comments]. Archives of Dermatology 1997; 133:339-342.
8. Schmidt JB, Binder M, Demschik G, Bieglmayer C, Reiner A.
Treatment of skin aging with topical estrogens. International Journal
of Dermatology 1996; 35:669-674.
9. Ruiz-Larrea MB, Martin C, Martinez R, Navarro R, Lacort M, Miller
NJ. Antioxidant activities of estrogens against aqueous and
lipophilic radicals; differences between phenol and catechol estrogens.
Chemistry & Physics of Lipids 2000; 105 :179-188.
10. Ayres S, Tang M, Subbiah MT. Estradiol-17beta as an antioxidant:
some distinct features when compared with common fat-soluble
antioxidants [see comments]. Journal of Laboratory & Clinical
Medicine 1996; 128:367-375.
11. Moosmann B, Behl C. The antioxidant neuroprotective effects of
estrogens and phenolic compounds are independent from their estrogenic
properties. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the
United States of America 1999; 96:8867-8872.
12. Zava DT, Duwe G. Estrogenic and antiproliferative properties of
genistein and other flavonoids in human breast cancer cells in vitro.
Nutrition & Cancer 1997; 27:31-40.
13. Ruiz-Larrea MB, Mohan AR, Paganga G, Miller NJ, Bolwell GP,
Rice-Evans CA. Antioxidant activity of phytoestrogenic isoflavones.
Free Radical Research 1997; 26:63-70.
14. Wiseman H, O’Reilly JD, Adlercreutz H, Mallet AI, Bowey EA,
Rowland IR, Sanders TA. Isoflavone phytoestrogens consumed in soy
decrease F(2)-isoprostane concentrations and increase resistance of
low-density lipoprotein to oxidation in humans. American Journal of
Clinical Nutrition 2000; 72:395-400.
15. Lichtenstein AH. Soy protein, isoflavones and cardiovascular disease
risk. [Review] [56 refs]. J Nutr 1998; 128:1589-1592.
16. Cassidy A, Griffin B. Phyto-oestrogens: a potential role in the
prevention of CHD?. [Review] [69 refs]. Proceedings of the Nutrition
Society 1999; 58:193-199.
17. Lissin LW, Cooke JP. Phytoestrogens and cardiovascular health.
[Review] [90 refs]. Journal of the American College of Cardiology
2000; 35:1403-1410.
18. Ingram D, Sanders K, Kolybaba M, Lopez D . Case-control study of
phyto-oestrogens and breast cancer [see comments]. Lancet 1997;
350:990-994.
19. Wiseman H. Role of dietary phyto-oestrogens in the protection
against cancer and heart disease. [Review] [47 refs]. Biochemical
Society Transactions 1996; 24:795-800.
20. Bingham SA, Atkinson C, Liggins J, Bluck L, Coward A. Phytooestrogens:
where are we now?. [Review] [138 refs]. British Journal
of Nutrition 1998; 79:393-406.
21. Limtrakul P, Suttajit M, Semura R, Shimada K, Yamamoto S.
Suppressive effect of soybean milk protein on experimentally induced
skin tumor in mice. Life Sciences 1993; 53:1591-1596.
22. Wei H, Bowen R, Zhang X, Lebwohl M. Isoflavone genistein inhibits
the initiation and promotion of two-stage skin carcinogenesis in mice.
Carcinogenesis 1998; 19:1509-1514.
23. Cai Q, Wei H. Effect of dietary genistein on antioxidant enzyme
activities in SENCAR mice. Nutrition & Cancer 1996; 25:1-7.
24. Wei H, Cai Q, Rahn RO. Inhibition of UV light- and Fenton reactioninduced
oxidative DNA damage by the soybean isoflavone genistein.
Carcinogenesis 1996; 17:73-77.
25. Wei H. American Academy of Dermatology 1998 Awards for Young
Investigators in Dermatology. Photoprotective action of isoflavone
genistein: models, mechanisms, and relevance to clinical dermatology.
Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology 1998; 39:t-2.
26. Hwang J, Sevanian A, Hodis HN, Ursini F. Synergistic inhibition of
LDL oxidation by phytoestrogens and ascorbic acid. Free Radical
Biology & Medicine 2000; 29:79-89.

It would have been appropriate for you to include the source where you copied this information from.
http://www.skinceuticals.com/_us/_en/science/download/Soy.pdf
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Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:16 pm      Reply with quote
h.kitty wrote:
DrJ wrote:
THE SCIENCE SUPPORTING SOY ISOFLAVONES

Research suggests that estrogen deficiencies following menopause may contribute to signs of aging in skin ...


It would have been appropriate for you to include the source where you copied this information from.
http://www.skinceuticals.com/_us/_en/science/download/Soy.pdf


I noticed that too! Yes, I too like citations/references/links, otherwise we assume the author of the piece is the person posting the information (rather than just passing along the work of someone else). I think that's called plagiarism. I was actually hoping Dr. J could provide us with information from J&J, since he was associated with them in the past.

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Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:50 pm      Reply with quote
h.kitty wrote:
DrJ wrote:
I agree. I actually tried first to link to it, but I am too junior a member here, and cannot include links in my posts. I get a warning. Sorry for being sloppy and forgetting to mention the source, it is a good one. I have some additional newer information now available and will probably take the opportunity to write an analysis piece for BFT.


I asked why you didn't mention the source of the information not why you didn't link to it.

Oddly enough you were able to post links days before your post on the SCIENCE SUPPORTING SOY ISOFLAVONES (see pages 1 and 2 of this thread) yet for some odd reason you couldn't post a link for that particular post? Besides even if you couldn't link to the Skinceuticals article you could have at least mentioned it without a link. Or are you saying that after you tried to link to the Skinceuticals article and couldn't post the link you "forgot" all about the fact that you needed to provide a reference?

Sloppy indeed!


I already confessed to and apologized for error of omission. Not sure why you want to flog this. May I suggest that we all extend just a little grace to one another? I'm not perfect, a condition I share with many other sufferers. I take time from other things to share my experience as a research doc, and don't want to be held to the same standard as when I am publishing in a journal or speaking at a conference. I have plenty of opportunity to do that. I like that it is casual, interactive here. I can learn from you folks as much as you can learn from me. More of a living room than a conference room. If there is no room for grace over small errors in this forum, then please tell me so, because I am in the wrong place.
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:10 pm      Reply with quote
I was really enjoying this thread. I liked reading Dr. J's posts and was happy to see someone like him come and join us. To be quite frank I am pissed off at the moment to see he will now go elsewhere. If I were in his shoes I probably would do the same.

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Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:52 pm      Reply with quote
brierrose wrote:
I've been waiting to hear more about DrJ's product. Anyone else?


I don't even have the latitude to speak freely about unreleased products. Why don't we wait until those products are available, and start a different thread in the product review section? Keep a clean separation between science & product discussions? Obviously, if I make a case for a particular ingredient here, it would be no surprise if it also was part of a a product line, right?
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:35 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
DrJ wrote:
That is not why I am here. I want to talk about the science.

Products are a snapshot in time, anyway. The science is starting to evolve much more quickly. More fun to talk about what we can glean from new discoveries, not yet even clinically tested.



Ok. Let's get back to the science. You have lots of questions on this thread (maybe not all 100% scientific, but about ingredients at least). Hopefully you will be able to answer them?


Right, let's get back to the science. Tell us about how the science is evolving more quickly and what new and exciting things are happening in the world of skincare from your perspective. Tell us about the ingredients you're testing. That's the value you can add to the forum. Don't let the personal attacks dissuade you. It's part of the process.
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:42 pm      Reply with quote
It's a *tough* crowd here, DrJ, but I would put forth that it's a good thing.

Ignore the ones attempting to derail/subvert/ridicule your efforts and focus on the ones asking the tough questions, soon enough you'll be able to tell them apart. The only way we're going to get anywhere is through vigorous and critical analysis.

Some posters where bouncy shoes, waiting to pounce, don't let them deter you, if you do, then they have won, lol

BFG
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:03 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
I have a good article on Retin-A written by Albert M. Kligman, MD, PhD (one of the chief proponents of Retin-a). But it's on my computer. I can't work out how to save it as a PDF so I can share it - does anyone know how I do this. Otherwise, I'll just have to copy and paste the whole article - and it's quite long.


Silly old me! As Lacy has just pointed out, I've already posted the article here - scroll down to the end of the page:

https://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=30670&start=25

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Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:38 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
I stumbled across this when looking for comparative studies of retinoids:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01283464

I think it relates to this product from SkinMedica (1% Retinol, Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate ):

http://www.skinmedica.com/mp/products/age-defense/tri-retinol-complex-es

Unfortunately I can't access the "Available Resources" at the bottom of the page since I am not a Medical Professional. Any chance you can, Dr. J? I did see the brief description of results from "first weeks" and "30-90 days" but I would be interested in seeing more details.


The study was completed & just published. Here is the abstract:

J Drugs Dermatol. 2012 Jan;11(1):64-9.
A randomized, double-blind, controlled comparative trial of the anti-aging properties of non-prescription tri-retinol 1.1% vs. prescription tretinoin 0.025%.
Ho ET, Trookman NS, Sperber BR, Rizer RL, Spindler R, Sonti S, Gotz V, Mehta R.
Source

ScinMedica, Inc., Carlsbad, CA 92010, USA. eho@skinmedica.com
Abstract

Vitamin A and its derivatives (commonly termed retinoids) are widely used in topical anti-aging products. Certain retinoids such as retinol and its esters are available without a prescription, while others such as tretinoin are available only via prescription. A randomized, double-blind, controlled clinical study was conducted to compare the efficacy and tolerability of a tri-retinol 1.1% gradual release cream vs. tretinoin 0.025% cream in females with mild-to-moderate facial photodamage. Subjects applied the test product to the entire face in the evening after cleansing in a progressively increasing frequency starting twice weekly for the first week, followed by three times weekly during the second week and then daily as tolerated for the third week and beyond. Treatment was continued for a total of three months. Clinical evaluations and standardized digital photographs were performed at baseline and after four, eight, and 12 weeks of treatment. Self-assessment questionnaires were completed by the subjects at four, eight, and 12 weeks to assess perceived efficacy of the test products. Thirty-four subjects (16: tri-retinol and 18: tretinoin) completed the study. Both test products significantly improved signs of photodamage, including fine and coarse periocular wrinkles, skin firmness, skin tone, mottled pigmentation, tactile roughness, overall photodamage and global photodamage improvement. There were no significant differences in efficacy between the two products for these assessments. The adverse effects (which were graded as mild or less) were those typically seen with topical retinoids. Subjects reported >93 percent overall satisfaction with both products at weeks 8 and 12.

--------------------------------

What the study says is that retinols just as good as tretinoin. And probably better tolerated.
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Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:28 pm      Reply with quote
Our thread here slowed down a bit, everyone seems busy elsewhere, and I am needing to take a leave to work on a new product release of my own. Let's start this up again in the near future. You guys are great!
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Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:34 am      Reply with quote
ketchup wrote:
I seen Hyaluronic Acid as being on some of your lists but not really discussed yet and im willing to wait my turn, but i myself would like to know more about it. I've read Dr. P's biochemist view on this as being be bad active for skin, yet its in many many products. Avoiding it is like trying avoid products with eggs.

Is it all that bad?


Hyaluronic Acid topically, or filler by injection?

Hyaluronic Acid is very important, but the key is to get your own fibroblasts to make more, not to slather it on. It's way to big to be absorbed, but does hold a lot of water (like most big molecules).

From an L.A. Times article:

Although buzz-worthy ingredients can be quite effective, with the ever-increasing mix of new technologies and formulas, it can be confusing to figure out what works best for your particular needs.

So, first of all, some facts: Hyaluronic acid is a viscous, gooey substance that's a key component in connective tissue. It lubricates the joints and even sustains the shape of the eyeballs. Dr. Nowell Solish, a cosmetic dermatologist, dermatological surgeon and director of Dermatologic Surgery at the University of Toronto, says it's important to understand that all hyaluronic acid is the same. "In fact, so much so that your hyaluronic acid is identical to mine and identical to any species even. Originally, before they started making it synthetically, they used to get it from a rooster."

One of the main reasons dermatologists use it as an injectable is because it naturally occurs in our skin, he adds. "We can inject it in there and our body doesn't really see it as foreign," says Solish, who is one of Canada's first cosmetic dermatologists to use Botox.

Many fillers with hyaluronic acid are on or are coming to the market. "The first one on the market to be big and do really well was Restylane," Solish says. "It comes in different thicknesses. Restylane was sort of the middle one, and they make a thicker one called Perlane, and there's a thinner one, but I don't think that you have it in the U.S. It's called Restylane Fine Line in Canada." He says that the other main player in the North American market is Juvéderm and that it comes in different thicknesses as well.

"I'd hazard to guess that 80% to 90% of fillers are hyaluronic acid, and that's for good reason," Solish says. "They work well, they're safe, and they're easy to use. And importantly, they are reversible, so if you inject someone and for any reason they decided to change their mind, there is an anecdote — something that you can put in and literally within hours it's gone."

Hyaluronic acid is a popular ingredient in topical beauty products, such as moisturizers and makeup, as well. One of the substance's features is that it draws moisture from the air and is said to hold up to 1, 000 times its weight in water.

"When you apply it topically, the molecule is too big to get hyaluronic acid through the skin. So when we inject it to fill a wrinkle or line it works well. [But] when you put it on topically it's a misconception that it's all going into the skin," Solish says.

"It forms a barrier on the skin and gives a soft moisturizing effect that makes skin smoother … but it doesn't eliminate wrinkles," he adds.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/07/image/la-ig-beauty-20100606
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Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm      Reply with quote
Dr. J,

Which peptides, besides copper peptides, do you think are beneficial for anti-aging? TIA
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Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:02 pm      Reply with quote
Jackie284 wrote:
DrJ wrote:


I like kinetin in general, but frankly consider it to be a second line active. It does lots of good things, but everything it does can be done by something else, generally with more potency. E.g. it is an antioxidant, but its OREC value is only about 130 (others get up above 200). It seems to enhance the effect of other actives like niacinamide. I would not be impressed with a cream with kinetin as the sole or primary active.



Hi Dr J,

what active would you recommend would work as good as, or better than Kinetin?

many thanks

Jackie xx


Hi Jackie.

Here is a short list of actives I think have good medical evidence supporting their inclusion as first level ingredients.

Niacinamide
Soy Isoflavones,
Retinol (Vitamin A)or various retinoids,
Tocopheryl(Vitamin E)
Vitamin C (Ester)
Ubiquinone (Coenzyme Q10),
Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B5)
L-Carnosine
Niacinamide (vitamin B3)
Matrixyl 3000(palmitoyl oligopeptide & palmitoyl-tetrapeptide-7)
Antiglycation agents (e.g. longevicell)
Several polyphenols
Various antioxidants
Various essential oils
Cu++ peptides (but problematic for many)

...and of course the superstar (because it's own work) stem cytokines
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:02 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
I am really surprised by the Matrixyl on the list, Dr. J, as well as the essential oils! (The EO's can be extremely irritating for people with sensitive skin and I am not aware of any studies,other than the manufacturers, on Matrixyl??)


As much as I personally love them AGREE 100% on EO's as many are very sensitive to them.

Didn't John (oh boy) post studies on Matrixyl 3000?


I suppose EOs can be irritating - but so can anything else if you're that way inclined. Look at all the varying reactions to Retin-A. But EOs have been at the forefront of skincare for thousands of years so I don't think they should be dismissed.

John had some info on the difference between Matrixyl and Matrixyl 3000 - I think he preferred the first version, but my memory about it all is a bit hazy.

Lovely to see you back on deck DM! Very Happy

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:26 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
DrJ!! Firefox! Rileygirl!..et. al !

Please read this and let me know what you think:


http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128314.300-first-antiwrinkle-pill-shows-signs-of-success.html

Interestingly enough, I already use many of these ingredients in my homebrewed serum.

BFG


What's in an anti-wrinkle capsule?

The concept behind "gene foods" is to put back into modern diets the ingredients from berries, nuts and fruits that were abundant in the food of our hunter-gatherer ancestors. Evidence is mounting that many of these ingredients have profound effects on master genes that keep tissue and organs healthy, reducing inflammation and damage.

Unilever's blend includes isoflavones from soya. These activate oestrogen receptors that trigger the skin to make collagen Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology, DOI: 10.1016/s0273-2300(03)00091-6). Another ingredient in the capsules is omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids taken from fish oil, which activate a master gene called PPAR that is also involved in collagen synthesis (Journal of Lipid Research, DOI: 10.1194/jlr.m800614-jlr200).

The other ingredients are vitamin E, vitamin C and lycopene, all known to promote tissue health. "We put them all together in a single product, and there are about a dozen genetic mechanisms at work," says Casey.

Preliminary results from Unilever suggest that activating the master genes raises the activity of several other genes that make proteins vital for good skin tone, such as elastin, decorin and several anti-inflammatory molecules.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128314.300-first-antiwrinkle-pill-shows-signs-of-success.html?page=2

It sounds very interesting, BFG. I think food can help in the skin care department (especially since they were looking at women of "a certain age").

You mean you use these ingredients topically, right BFG? Are you thinking because they work internally they will work topically?

I actually was just talking to Dr. Fernandes on the subject of sunscreens, and he likes to focus on antioxidants (supplements/food, lycopene - tomato product, etc, etc) for sun protection. I am sure he is aware of the research. That man looks incredible for his age, IMO, so I would definitely listen to his ideas/thoughts on any subject involving aging and skin.
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