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rileygirl
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:56 am      Reply with quote
summer2004 wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
I also would like to hear your thoughts on 1st and 2nd gen CP's. And, are the results people get due to the CP, or the AHA (or RA) they use with the CP's?


A really good and well-thought question!!!


Thank you! Would love to see an answer to this question, as well as cytokines and intrinsic/extrinsic aging, and the issue of product penetration.
Barefootgirl
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:17 am      Reply with quote
Oh good, I am glad you posted the link to the article, as it is recent and very telling, IMO.

In it, you have one MD urging other MDs to be "ethical" in their practice. (think on that one for a minute!)

Do you think oncologists have to urge other oncologists to be ethical? urologists? gastroenterologists? I doubt it....only in dermatology do we find this sort of pathetic situation.


rileygirl - if you don't mind, I am interested in learning more about what you mean by intrinsic/extrinsic aging.

Gracias,

BFG
rileygirl
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:33 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Oh good, I am glad you posted the link to the article, as it is recent and very telling, IMO.

In it, you have one MD urging other MDs to be "ethical" in their practice. (think on that one for a minute!)

Do you think oncologists have to urge other oncologists to be ethical? urologists? gastroenterologists? I doubt it....only in dermatology do we find this sort of pathetic situation.


rileygirl - if you don't mind, I am interested in learning more about what you mean by intrinsic/extrinsic aging.

Gracias,

BFG


Great points, BFG.

On the intrinsic/extrinsic aging, I had asked Dr. J if cytokines would be beneficial (or work) for both types of aging (intrinsic - chronological aging, extrinsic - photoaging).

P.S. I see Havanna has fixed the thread title for you! Very Happy
h.kitty
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:03 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
I agree. I actually tried first to link to it, but I am too junior a member here, and cannot include links in my posts. I get a warning. Sorry for being sloppy and forgetting to mention the source, it is a good one. I have some additional newer information now available and will probably take the opportunity to write an analysis piece for BFT.


I asked why you didn't mention the source of the information not why you didn't link to it.

Oddly enough you were able to post links days before your post on the SCIENCE SUPPORTING SOY ISOFLAVONES (see pages 1 and 2 of this thread) yet for some odd reason you couldn't post a link for that particular post? Besides even if you couldn't link to the Skinceuticals article you could have at least mentioned it without a link. Or are you saying that after you tried to link to the Skinceuticals article and couldn't post the link you "forgot" all about the fact that you needed to provide a reference?

Sloppy indeed!
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:50 pm      Reply with quote
h.kitty wrote:
DrJ wrote:
I agree. I actually tried first to link to it, but I am too junior a member here, and cannot include links in my posts. I get a warning. Sorry for being sloppy and forgetting to mention the source, it is a good one. I have some additional newer information now available and will probably take the opportunity to write an analysis piece for BFT.


I asked why you didn't mention the source of the information not why you didn't link to it.

Oddly enough you were able to post links days before your post on the SCIENCE SUPPORTING SOY ISOFLAVONES (see pages 1 and 2 of this thread) yet for some odd reason you couldn't post a link for that particular post? Besides even if you couldn't link to the Skinceuticals article you could have at least mentioned it without a link. Or are you saying that after you tried to link to the Skinceuticals article and couldn't post the link you "forgot" all about the fact that you needed to provide a reference?

Sloppy indeed!


I already confessed to and apologized for error of omission. Not sure why you want to flog this. May I suggest that we all extend just a little grace to one another? I'm not perfect, a condition I share with many other sufferers. I take time from other things to share my experience as a research doc, and don't want to be held to the same standard as when I am publishing in a journal or speaking at a conference. I have plenty of opportunity to do that. I like that it is casual, interactive here. I can learn from you folks as much as you can learn from me. More of a living room than a conference room. If there is no room for grace over small errors in this forum, then please tell me so, because I am in the wrong place.
jenp7
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:37 pm      Reply with quote
I think this is a great discussion-- thank you, Dr J for starting it. Did anyone else have anything on DMAE?

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Lotusesther
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:41 pm      Reply with quote
I understand why 'flog' this. The info you provide about the usual actives is never beyond what can already be found on this forum or the usual places people go for info (like Bulk Actives, Skin Actives etc.). The only new thing you seem to promote is stuff about DNA tech which is, how coincidental, the stuff your new serum will be built around.

The nice thing about this topic is, it collects info that is spread out over several topics on the forum so that it provides an easy to read list. The not so nice thing is that I feel we're being played. And you have not, links and everything, answered my questions about soy isoflavones.

Now the interesting bit about that is that even though I am no expert, my nephew is. When it comes to knowing about molecules filling receptors he is an expert - he even wrote a computer simulation programme to predict receptor filling and consequent action that is now used by universities all over the world.
The point is that molecules may lock on to receptors, like isoflavones lock on to receptors for estrogen. But that doesn't say anything about the action that takes place afterwards - it only says it blocks the access of estrogen to the cell because the open space has already been filled. That is why estrogen mimicking isoflavone can be so good in preventing estrogen related cancers - the estrogen itself does not get to the target because the place is already taken by another substance that does not act as estrogen.

This is how state of the art cancer drugs are designed - to lock on to receptors to block cancer promoting hormones etc.

This does not mean that isoflavones won't do anything for the skin. In theory, as long as they are enough alike to estrogen regarding a specific function they just might. But also in theory they could block the effects of the estrogen you already have.

We are, in a world where apparently there are people willing to pay $ 700 for a moisturizer, living test tubes with credit cards. The scientific evidence presented in whatever study should be read bearing in mind that a. we are not hairless mice and b. we are in vivo, not in vitro.
Lacy53
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:23 pm      Reply with quote
A good summary article of cosmeceuticals here:

http://www.jcadonline.com/how-much-do-we-really-know-about-our-favorite-cosmeceutical-ingredients/

Dr. Baumann has this article about soy/genistein:

http://www.skinandallergynews.com/views/cosmeceutical-critique-by-leslie-s-baumann/blog/genistein/e34e5f299b.html

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DrJ
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:46 pm      Reply with quote
Lotusesther wrote:
I understand why 'flog' this. The info you provide about the usual actives is never beyond what can already be found on this forum or the usual places people go for info (like Bulk Actives, Skin Actives etc.). The only new thing you seem to promote is stuff about DNA tech which is, how coincidental, the stuff your new serum will be built around.

The nice thing about this topic is, it collects info that is spread out over several topics on the forum so that it provides an easy to read list. The not so nice thing is that I feel we're being played. And you have not, links and everything, answered my questions about soy isoflavones.

Now the interesting bit about that is that even though I am no expert, my nephew is. When it comes to knowing about molecules filling receptors he is an expert - he even wrote a computer simulation programme to predict receptor filling and consequent action that is now used by universities all over the world.
The point is that molecules may lock on to receptors, like isoflavones lock on to receptors for estrogen. But that doesn't say anything about the action that takes place afterwards - it only says it blocks the access of estrogen to the cell because the open space has already been filled. That is why estrogen mimicking isoflavone can be so good in preventing estrogen related cancers - the estrogen itself does not get to the target because the place is already taken by another substance that does not act as estrogen.

This is how state of the art cancer drugs are designed - to lock on to receptors to block cancer promoting hormones etc.

This does not mean that isoflavones won't do anything for the skin. In theory, as long as they are enough alike to estrogen regarding a specific function they just might. But also in theory they could block the effects of the estrogen you already have.

We are, in a world where apparently there are people willing to pay $ 700 for a moisturizer, living test tubes with credit cards. The scientific evidence presented in whatever study should be read bearing in mind that a. we are not hairless mice and b. we are in vivo, not in vitro.


If you think you are being "played" then why ask my opinion at all? About soy isoflavones or anything else? You seem to think you know all there is to know about it based on receptors. If that's all there is to know, then you have everything you need.

I get asked questions here on 5-6 different topics a day, and usually only have time to spend answering one. If I didn't answer yours, it may be because I answered someone else's. It wasn't meant to offend.

And then I am criticized for talking about the areas I actively research. Wouldn't you expect that's where I have the most to contribute? And would you have me formulate products with ingredients I don't have confidence in, just so you don't have to worry about being "played"?

And I thought I could help to organize a thread, and summarize evidence into a table, to make final conclusions. I didn't sign on to do all the gathering of the evidence. Others can do this as well or better than I. What I can do is offer the perspective of a research scientist and clinician with 30+ years of front line experience.

But it is no longer fun.

I think I will go find some other forums less prone to this sort of pathological crabbiness.

If this ever gets fun and interesting and exciting again, someone please give me a shout over at BFT.
Keliu
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:12 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ - I think what you have to understand is that, as consumers, we are told by every single manufacturer of skincare topicals that their particular serum is an anti-aging breakthrough which will miraculously cure all signs of aging. We all spend our hard earned money on these lotions and potions only to find that they are, at best, just a moisturiser. It's very easy to become jaded and suspicious of all these claims.

I'm sure you started this thread with good intentions - asking us to contribute what has worked for us along with the research to back up the claims. But, I for one, am as confused as ever about what works and what doesn't. And it seems to me, so is the scientific community. If the scientific community can't agree on anything - how is the consumer supposed to. I really don't want to be wasting money searching for the Holy Grail - I would like cosmeceuticals to come under the same guidelines as pharmaceuticals. In other words, I want some kind of guarantee that the product will do what it says it will do on the packaging.

I hope you don't go off in a huff, because this is one of the few forums around where members really are pretty knowledgeable and passionate about the subject. Given that you are formulating your own anti-aging serum, I can only presume that you will only be using those ingredients which you yourself have proven to be effective. I would like to hear more about those ingredients (and the technology behind them) rather than re-hashing all of the other ingredients that we've all been arguing about ad infinitum.

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Frodo
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:10 pm      Reply with quote
I was really enjoying this thread. I liked reading Dr. J's posts and was happy to see someone like him come and join us. To be quite frank I am pissed off at the moment to see he will now go elsewhere. If I were in his shoes I probably would do the same.

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Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:44 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:

I hope you don't go off in a huff, because this is one of the few forums around where members really are pretty knowledgeable and passionate about the subject. Given that you are formulating your own anti-aging serum, I can only presume that you will only be using those ingredients which you yourself have proven to be effective. I would like to hear more about those ingredients (and the technology behind them) rather than re-hashing all of the other ingredients that we've all been arguing about ad infinitum.


I second this sentiment.

Sometimes this forum has more drama than an episode of The Real Housewives. Rolling Eyes Don't let it get you down. Really people are just questioning you the same way you question Marta at Truth in Aging. I think it's unfortunate that the posts you chose to respond to today were those criticizing you personally. You need to be able to take the heat. Wink

It was nice having your perspective on the forum. Why don't you talk about your work and the research you're doing. Tell us how your product will be different from the rest. Just remember to provide links or references to your sources and if you don't know the answer to a question just say I don't know or there isn't enough research to give a definitive answer. We don't expect you to know it all.
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:45 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
A good summary article of cosmeceuticals here:

http://www.jcadonline.com/how-much-do-we-really-know-about-our-favorite-cosmeceutical-ingredients/



Thanks Lacy for a great article.
foxe
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:34 pm      Reply with quote
Frodo wrote:
I was really enjoying this thread. I liked reading Dr. J's posts and was happy to see someone like him come and join us. To be quite frank I am pissed off at the moment to see he will now go elsewhere. If I were in his shoes I probably would do the same.


I totally agree and do hope DrJ sticks around for a while. I'd love to hear his thoughts on many of the ingredients we are all interested in.

I, for one, would love to hear from him on:

Copper Peptides
Topical Absorbic Acid
DMAE
AHAs and BHAs
Nicacinamide
Hyaluronic Acid


These seem to be ones touted as being effective for many members on EDS as well as being controversial.

There have been many articles posted in the past on several threads. Can we help DrJ along by reposting them here?

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rileygirl
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:56 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Keliu wrote:

I hope you don't go off in a huff, because this is one of the few forums around where members really are pretty knowledgeable and passionate about the subject. Given that you are formulating your own anti-aging serum, I can only presume that you will only be using those ingredients which you yourself have proven to be effective. I would like to hear more about those ingredients (and the technology behind them) rather than re-hashing all of the other ingredients that we've all been arguing about ad infinitum.


I think it's unfortunate that the posts you chose to respond to today were those criticizing you personally. You need to be able to take the heat. Wink

It was nice having your perspective on the forum. Why don't you talk about your work and the research you're doing. Tell us how your product will be different from the rest. Just remember to provide links or references to your sources and if you don't know the answer to a question just say I don't know or there isn't enough research to give a definitive answer. We don't expect you to know it all.


I'll third this. EDS is like no other forum. Usually the up and coming ingredients/products are discussed on this forum well before the others. Most of the members are very knowledgeable, do not just blinding accept what an anonymous person on a forum writes, and do their own research.

I, personally, would have preferred if you had talked openly about your product right from the start, its ingredients, and why you feel it will be better than everything already on the market (and samples for all would have been nice Wink). Would everyone have agreed with you on your opinion, or trusted you then? Nope. It is just as in the real world. Some will believe, some will blindly follow, some will question, and some will not believe nor trust. Agree with Jom, you need to be able to take the heat.
rileygirl
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Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:00 pm      Reply with quote
Frodo wrote:
I was really enjoying this thread. I liked reading Dr. J's posts and was happy to see someone like him come and join us. To be quite frank I am pissed off at the moment to see he will now go elsewhere. If I were in his shoes I probably would do the same.


Just in case you did not know this, he posts quite frequently on the Skincaretalk forum. http://www.skincaretalk.com/f/20/anti-aging
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:29 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
jom wrote:
Keliu wrote:

I hope you don't go off in a huff, because this is one of the few forums around where members really are pretty knowledgeable and passionate about the subject. Given that you are formulating your own anti-aging serum, I can only presume that you will only be using those ingredients which you yourself have proven to be effective. I would like to hear more about those ingredients (and the technology behind them) rather than re-hashing all of the other ingredients that we've all been arguing about ad infinitum.


I think it's unfortunate that the posts you chose to respond to today were those criticizing you personally. You need to be able to take the heat. Wink

It was nice having your perspective on the forum. Why don't you talk about your work and the research you're doing. Tell us how your product will be different from the rest. Just remember to provide links or references to your sources and if you don't know the answer to a question just say I don't know or there isn't enough research to give a definitive answer. We don't expect you to know it all.


I'll third this. EDS is like no other forum. Usually the up and coming ingredients/products are discussed on this forum well before the others. Most of the members are very knowledgeable, do not just blinding accept what an anonymous person on a forum writes, and do their own research.

I, personally, would have preferred if you had talked openly about your product right from the start, its ingredients, and why you feel it will be better than everything already on the market (and samples for all would have been nice Wink). Would everyone have agreed with you on your opinion, or trusted you then? Nope. It is just as in the real world. Some will believe, some will blindly follow, some will question, and some will not believe nor trust. Agree with Jom, you need to be able to take the heat.


I don't mind heat. I like heat, But I like the kind that is generated by real debate, over the fundamentals, not incessantly nagging over minor oversights or typing errors. I don't shy away from controversy. But, I am also not responsible for everyone's bad experiences in the industry. That's other's baggage, not mine.

If I talk about my companies products I will just be accused of shilling. I'm sure the resident nags will just say "see, I told you so, that's the only reason he comes here". That is not why I am here. I want to talk about the science. I am not selling anything. I don't need to sell anything. I don't need to do this work. And there is a reason I am never put in charge of marketing. I don't want it to be about me, my company, my company's products.

Products are a snapshot in time, anyway. The science is starting to evolve much more quickly. More fun to talk about what we can glean from new discoveries, not yet even clinically tested.

Anyway, as I said before, the thread has a specific purpose, but it was hijacked. We started out to make a list, explore evidence from many sources, develop a rating system, see where we can find consensus, where we agree to disagree. That sounded fun. Talking about me is not fun.
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:38 am      Reply with quote
OK let's have some fun! Vitamin A, retinoids, retinol - lots of evidence out there, long standing experience by users. The agressive stuff does the most, but also the more gentle kinds (retinol, retinyl acetate, retinyl palmitate) have good track records.
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:12 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
That is not why I am here. I want to talk about the science.

Products are a snapshot in time, anyway. The science is starting to evolve much more quickly. More fun to talk about what we can glean from new discoveries, not yet even clinically tested.



Ok. Let's get back to the science. You have lots of questions on this thread (maybe not all 100% scientific, but about ingredients at least). Hopefully you will be able to answer them?
brierrose
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:18 pm      Reply with quote
I've been waiting to hear more about DrJ's product. Anyone else?
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:52 pm      Reply with quote
brierrose wrote:
I've been waiting to hear more about DrJ's product. Anyone else?


I don't even have the latitude to speak freely about unreleased products. Why don't we wait until those products are available, and start a different thread in the product review section? Keep a clean separation between science & product discussions? Obviously, if I make a case for a particular ingredient here, it would be no surprise if it also was part of a a product line, right?
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:35 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
DrJ wrote:
That is not why I am here. I want to talk about the science.

Products are a snapshot in time, anyway. The science is starting to evolve much more quickly. More fun to talk about what we can glean from new discoveries, not yet even clinically tested.



Ok. Let's get back to the science. You have lots of questions on this thread (maybe not all 100% scientific, but about ingredients at least). Hopefully you will be able to answer them?


Right, let's get back to the science. Tell us about how the science is evolving more quickly and what new and exciting things are happening in the world of skincare from your perspective. Tell us about the ingredients you're testing. That's the value you can add to the forum. Don't let the personal attacks dissuade you. It's part of the process.
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:42 pm      Reply with quote
It's a *tough* crowd here, DrJ, but I would put forth that it's a good thing.

Ignore the ones attempting to derail/subvert/ridicule your efforts and focus on the ones asking the tough questions, soon enough you'll be able to tell them apart. The only way we're going to get anywhere is through vigorous and critical analysis.

Some posters where bouncy shoes, waiting to pounce, don't let them deter you, if you do, then they have won, lol

BFG
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:56 pm      Reply with quote
What ever happened to CoQ10 as a good active? It seems to be ignored or has fallen out of favour as a topical ingredient, but I was under the impression it had pretty good evidence of efficacy in skincare.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19096121
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16873944
http://www.nanoscalereslett.com/content/5/10/1561

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Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:37 pm      Reply with quote
As a 8-month user of ISCO Lifeline I want to hear more about the products it contains. It should NOT be out of bounds in the discussion. It is working well for me, as I have attested in the ISCO discussion. My wrinkles are decreased a little bit and my skin looks glowing and has gotten a smidge thicker. It was really thin before, but that is probably age related. I have very good results.

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