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DrJ
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:54 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
What ever happened to CoQ10 as a good active? It seems to be ignored or has fallen out of favour as a topical ingredient, but I was under the impression it had pretty good evidence of efficacy in skincare.

c
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16873944
http://www.nanoscalereslett.com/content/5/10/1561


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19096121 . Taken together, our results indicate that CoQ10 may inhibit the production of IL-6 which stimulate fibroblasts in dermis by paracrine manner to up-regulate MMPs production, and contribute to protecting dermal fiber components from degradation, leading to rejuvenation of wrinkled skin.

There are other, more direct ways to manipulate IL-6 (an inflammatory cytokine) production, e.g. with other (anti-inflammatory) cytokines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16873944 . As an organism ages, there is a decline in mitochondrial function and cellular energy balance. This decline is both accelerated by and can cause the formation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) that damage nuclear and mitochondrial DNA, lipid membranes as well as structural and catalytic proteins, especially those involved in energetic pathways of cells. Further, ROS have also been linked to some of the detrimental skin changes that occur as a result of photoaging.

Absolutely spot on. Much of the advanced work these days is looking at mitchondria as keys to understanding cell senescence. Once we understand senescence (programmed or intrinsic & induced or environmental) we find lots of opportunities to alter the picture. Again, C0Q10 is a co-enzyme. Better yet is affecting the whole energetic pathway. What turns the genes on & off?

http://www.nanoscalereslett.com/content/5/10/1561. These observations suggest that lecithin-based LNCs could be used as a promising topical delivery vehicle for lipophilic compounds.

We are working with lipid nanoencapsulation, and are big believers. Much more stable than liposomes, for any hydrophilic protein, not just CoQ10.

Let's do Vitamin A & retin-a & retinoids next. Dr George just did piece for BFT (someone else can link). Let's start there & drill down on all the evidence, for and against.
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:40 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
jom wrote:
Keliu wrote:

I hope you don't go off in a huff, because this is one of the few forums around where members really are pretty knowledgeable and passionate about the subject. Given that you are formulating your own anti-aging serum, I can only presume that you will only be using those ingredients which you yourself have proven to be effective. I would like to hear more about those ingredients (and the technology behind them) rather than re-hashing all of the other ingredients that we've all been arguing about ad infinitum.


I think it's unfortunate that the posts you chose to respond to today were those criticizing you personally. You need to be able to take the heat. Wink

It was nice having your perspective on the forum. Why don't you talk about your work and the research you're doing. Tell us how your product will be different from the rest. Just remember to provide links or references to your sources and if you don't know the answer to a question just say I don't know or there isn't enough research to give a definitive answer. We don't expect you to know it all.


I'll third this. EDS is like no other forum. Usually the up and coming ingredients/products are discussed on this forum well before the others. Most of the members are very knowledgeable, do not just blinding accept what an anonymous person on a forum writes, and do their own research.

I, personally, would have preferred if you had talked openly about your product right from the start, its ingredients, and why you feel it will be better than everything already on the market (and samples for all would have been nice Wink). Would everyone have agreed with you on your opinion, or trusted you then? Nope. It is just as in the real world. Some will believe, some will blindly follow, some will question, and some will not believe nor trust. Agree with Jom, you need to be able to take the heat.


I don't think Dr. J would be within the forum rules if he talked about his product. I hope I'm wrong about this.

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Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:13 pm      Reply with quote
I have a good article on Retin-A written by Albert M. Kligman, MD, PhD (one of the chief proponents of Retin-a). But it's on my computer. I can't work out how to save it as a PDF so I can share it - does anyone know how I do this. Otherwise, I'll just have to copy and paste the whole article - and it's quite long.

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Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:02 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
I have a good article on Retin-A written by Albert M. Kligman, MD, PhD (one of the chief proponents of Retin-a). But it's on my computer. I can't work out how to save it as a PDF so I can share it - does anyone know how I do this. Otherwise, I'll just have to copy and paste the whole article - and it's quite long.



what format is it in?
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:03 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
I have a good article on Retin-A written by Albert M. Kligman, MD, PhD (one of the chief proponents of Retin-a). But it's on my computer. I can't work out how to save it as a PDF so I can share it - does anyone know how I do this. Otherwise, I'll just have to copy and paste the whole article - and it's quite long.


Silly old me! As Lacy has just pointed out, I've already posted the article here - scroll down to the end of the page:

https://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=30670&start=25

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Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:32 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Keliu wrote:
I have a good article on Retin-A written by Albert M. Kligman, MD, PhD (one of the chief proponents of Retin-a). But it's on my computer. I can't work out how to save it as a PDF so I can share it - does anyone know how I do this. Otherwise, I'll just have to copy and paste the whole article - and it's quite long.


Silly old me! As Lacy has just pointed out, I've already posted the article here - scroll down to the end of the page:

https://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=30670&start=25


Note that this article is 15 years old. A lot has changed in thinking since then.
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:37 pm      Reply with quote
Here are some more articles for your consideration to further the retin-a & retinoids discussion. The big idea these days is -- are other (better tolerated) retinoids as good as tretinoin?

The first is an excellent review of physiology, biochemistry, and efficacy studies.

Retinoids in the treatment of skin aging: an overview of clinical efficacy and safety

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699641/pdf/cia-1-327.pdf

This is a comparative study Retin-A vs. retinoid plus niacinamide & peptides

A randomized, controlled comparative study of the wrinkle reduction benefits of a cosmetic niacinamide⁄peptide⁄retinyl
propionate product regimen vs. a prescription 0.02% tretinoin product regimen


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841824/pdf/bjd0162-0647.pdf


Cytokine & receptor level mechanisms. Cool!

Upregulation of P2Y2 receptors by retinoids in normal human epidermal keratinocytes


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2104003/pdf/11302_2005_Article_7331.pdf


interesting study

Practical Application of Genomics to the Development of a Topical Cosmetic Anti-aging Regimen

http://www.skintherapyletter.com/2011/16.7/2.html
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Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:55 am      Reply with quote
Frodo wrote:


I don't think Dr. J would be within the forum rules if he talked about his product. I hope I'm wrong about this.


You may be right, but I am interested mostly in the ingredients in the product and why he chose them. Let's wait until the product comes out, and then I'll start a new thread on the product and the ingredients. That should be ok, I think!
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Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:16 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:

interesting study

Practical Application of Genomics to the Development of a Topical Cosmetic Anti-aging Regimen

http://www.skintherapyletter.com/2011/16.7/2.html


Only have time to read 1 of these, and I chose this one. What bothers me about this study is that they chose to compare the OTC product to 0.02% tretinoin, and most people use higher strengths of tretinoin (minimum of 0.25%), which I think would have made a huge difference in results.

I would have liked it if they continued the study, and showed each group at the 1 year mark, as tretinoin is just starting to produce results around 6 months.

Thoughts?
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Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:32 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
DrJ wrote:

interesting study

Practical Application of Genomics to the Development of a Topical Cosmetic Anti-aging Regimen

http://www.skintherapyletter.com/2011/16.7/2.html


Only have time to read 1 of these, and I chose this one. What bothers me about this study is that they chose to compare the OTC product to 0.02% tretinoin, and most people use higher strengths of tretinoin (minimum of 0.25%), which I think would have made a huge difference in results.

I would have liked it if they continued the study, and showed each group at the 1 year mark, as tretinoin is just starting to produce results around 6 months.

Thoughts?


I think you mean 0.025% not 0.25%. The usual dosage for photoaging is 0.02% to 0.05%, slightly higher for acne & keratoses. Look at the first review paper (you will like it better). Most of the long range studies (table 3) are between 0.01% and 0.05%.
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Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:22 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:

I think you mean 0.025% not 0.25%. The usual dosage for photoaging is 0.02% to 0.05%, slightly higher for acne & keratoses. Look at the first review paper (you will like it better). Most of the long range studies (table 3) are between 0.01% and 0.05%.


LOL. Yes, that is what happens when I try to rush post before heading out the door. You are correct, that is what I meant! I'll check out the first paper hopefully tomorrow.
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Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:46 pm      Reply with quote
I stumbled across this when looking for comparative studies of retinoids:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01283464

I think it relates to this product from SkinMedica (1% Retinol, Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate ):

http://www.skinmedica.com/mp/products/age-defense/tri-retinol-complex-es

Unfortunately I can't access the "Available Resources" at the bottom of the page since I am not a Medical Professional. Any chance you can, Dr. J? I did see the brief description of results from "first weeks" and "30-90 days" but I would be interested in seeing more details.

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Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:38 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
I stumbled across this when looking for comparative studies of retinoids:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01283464

I think it relates to this product from SkinMedica (1% Retinol, Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate ):

http://www.skinmedica.com/mp/products/age-defense/tri-retinol-complex-es

Unfortunately I can't access the "Available Resources" at the bottom of the page since I am not a Medical Professional. Any chance you can, Dr. J? I did see the brief description of results from "first weeks" and "30-90 days" but I would be interested in seeing more details.


The study was completed & just published. Here is the abstract:

J Drugs Dermatol. 2012 Jan;11(1):64-9.
A randomized, double-blind, controlled comparative trial of the anti-aging properties of non-prescription tri-retinol 1.1% vs. prescription tretinoin 0.025%.
Ho ET, Trookman NS, Sperber BR, Rizer RL, Spindler R, Sonti S, Gotz V, Mehta R.
Source

ScinMedica, Inc., Carlsbad, CA 92010, USA. eho@skinmedica.com
Abstract

Vitamin A and its derivatives (commonly termed retinoids) are widely used in topical anti-aging products. Certain retinoids such as retinol and its esters are available without a prescription, while others such as tretinoin are available only via prescription. A randomized, double-blind, controlled clinical study was conducted to compare the efficacy and tolerability of a tri-retinol 1.1% gradual release cream vs. tretinoin 0.025% cream in females with mild-to-moderate facial photodamage. Subjects applied the test product to the entire face in the evening after cleansing in a progressively increasing frequency starting twice weekly for the first week, followed by three times weekly during the second week and then daily as tolerated for the third week and beyond. Treatment was continued for a total of three months. Clinical evaluations and standardized digital photographs were performed at baseline and after four, eight, and 12 weeks of treatment. Self-assessment questionnaires were completed by the subjects at four, eight, and 12 weeks to assess perceived efficacy of the test products. Thirty-four subjects (16: tri-retinol and 18: tretinoin) completed the study. Both test products significantly improved signs of photodamage, including fine and coarse periocular wrinkles, skin firmness, skin tone, mottled pigmentation, tactile roughness, overall photodamage and global photodamage improvement. There were no significant differences in efficacy between the two products for these assessments. The adverse effects (which were graded as mild or less) were those typically seen with topical retinoids. Subjects reported >93 percent overall satisfaction with both products at weeks 8 and 12.

--------------------------------

What the study says is that retinols just as good as tretinoin. And probably better tolerated.
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Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:45 pm      Reply with quote
Which is also what the combo formulation (niacinamide⁄peptide⁄retinoid)study I posted yesterday shows. Just as good, better tolerated than tretinoin.
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Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:26 pm      Reply with quote
Dr. J, will you talk a little bit about ceramides and how they are beneficial. What is the difference between ceramide 2 and 3 and which one is better for skin health? TIA
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Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:02 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Dr. J, will you talk a little bit about ceramides and how they are beneficial. What is the difference between ceramide 2 and 3 and which one is better for skin health? TIA


Critical role in barrier function, For dry skin, or for atopic dermatitis, sensitive skin, good stuff. Good moisturizer, but the world has plenty of good ingredients for that. For anti-aging benefits, like wrinkle reduction, seems to have some effect, but weak compared to others. Here is the one study that suggests it does work. Others not s0 much.

Int J Cosmet Sci. 2007 Aug;29(4):319-29.
Salicyloyl-phytosphingosine: a novel agent for the repair of photoaged skin.
Farwick M, Watson RE, Rawlings AV, Wollenweber U, Lersch P, Bowden JJ, Bastrilles JY, Griffiths CE.
Source

Degussa AG, Goldschmidt Personal Care, Goldschmidtstrasse 100, 45127 Essen, Germany. mike.farwick@degussa.com
Abstract

In recent years the importance of sphingolipids (cerebrosides, sphingomyelin, ceramides, sphingosine-1-phospate, etc.) in skin biology is receiving an increasing interest. Not only are ceramides essential for the barrier function of the skin, especially through their phytosphingosine, sphingosine and 6-hydroxysphingosine derivatives, they are now also known to be cell-signalling mediators which can improve epidermal differentiation. However, their effects on dermal anti-ageing markers and reduction of wrinkles have not been established. In this study, we were interested in the effects of a sphingolipid derivative, salicyloyl-phytosphingosine (SP), because of the known independent beneficial effects of salicylic acid and phytosphingosine on skin. Both of these agents are known to reduce the activities of the activator protein-1 transcription factor, in a manner similar to that observed with retinoic acid (RA) treatment. Through this mechanism, RA was shown to reduce the levels of matrix metalloproteases (MMPs) and the increase levels of extracellular matrix proteins. Therefore, we examined the effects of SP on procollagen-I synthesis in fibroblasts in vitro, its effects in vivo on the expression of dermal markers such as fibrillin-1, procollagen-I and MMP-1 immunochemically in biopsies taken from a short-term occluded patch test protocol and, its effects on periorbital wrinkle reduction over 4 weeks using Fast Optical In Vivo Topometry of Human Skin. In vitro we observed a significant increase in the production of procollagen-I by adult human fibroblasts (two fold increase, P < 0.01) which encouraged us to test the effects of SP in vivo. Initially, test products (SP at 0.05% and 0.2%, all-trans RA (0.025%) and vehicle were applied under occlusion for 8 days prior to biopsy and histological assessment in photoaged volunteers (n = 5). Increased deposition of fibrillin-1 and procollagen-I, together with reductions in the levels of MMP-1, were observed for the SP treatments (P < 0.05). Similar effects were observed for RA, except for the increases in procollagen-I. With these beneficial effects on the basement membrane and papillary dermal markers, we evaluated the effects of SP in an oil-in-water (O/W) cream for its effects in reducing the appearance of periorbital wrinkles in a 4-week, half-face clinical study compared to placebo cream (moderately photoaged female subjects aged 41-69 years; n = 30). Clear reductions in wrinkle depth and Rz (skin smoothness) together with Ra (skin roughness) parameters were observed (P < 0.05), indicating an anti-wrinkle benefit. In conclusion, this series of studies demonstrated for the first time that a ceramide derivative, such as that SP, was a novel agent for the repair of photoaged skin and highlight its effects at the cellular, tissue and organ levels.
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Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:48 am      Reply with quote
It's been awhile since I researched this and as I recall, it was related to controlling inflammation and repairing the barrier - but there are three ingredients - ceramides, efas and cholesterol and optimally in the correct ratio.

Sorry I do not have time to look it up now, but it is in the archives.

BFG
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Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:28 pm      Reply with quote
Our thread here slowed down a bit, everyone seems busy elsewhere, and I am needing to take a leave to work on a new product release of my own. Let's start this up again in the near future. You guys are great!
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Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:27 pm      Reply with quote
I use:

AM
Vitamin c serum (nufountain, I believe)
Sunblock

PM
Skin Biology Skin Signals (wait an hour or so)
Retin A or Paula's Choice BPO lotion

What am I missing? Do I have what I need? I realize the post is about the best actives. I use A, C and copper peptides. Are there fantastic actives that I should be using? I've been following the thread, and some good ones have been mentioned.

Of course, not everything works for everybody, and including all great or semi-great actives would be costly and time consuming. Smile


TIA
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Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:13 pm      Reply with quote
I seen Hyaluronic Acid as being on some of your lists but not really discussed yet and im willing to wait my turn, but i myself would like to know more about it. I've read Dr. P's biochemist view on this as being be bad active for skin, yet its in many many products. Avoiding it is like trying avoid products with eggs.

Is it all that bad?
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Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:34 am      Reply with quote
ketchup wrote:
I seen Hyaluronic Acid as being on some of your lists but not really discussed yet and im willing to wait my turn, but i myself would like to know more about it. I've read Dr. P's biochemist view on this as being be bad active for skin, yet its in many many products. Avoiding it is like trying avoid products with eggs.

Is it all that bad?


Hyaluronic Acid topically, or filler by injection?

Hyaluronic Acid is very important, but the key is to get your own fibroblasts to make more, not to slather it on. It's way to big to be absorbed, but does hold a lot of water (like most big molecules).

From an L.A. Times article:

Although buzz-worthy ingredients can be quite effective, with the ever-increasing mix of new technologies and formulas, it can be confusing to figure out what works best for your particular needs.

So, first of all, some facts: Hyaluronic acid is a viscous, gooey substance that's a key component in connective tissue. It lubricates the joints and even sustains the shape of the eyeballs. Dr. Nowell Solish, a cosmetic dermatologist, dermatological surgeon and director of Dermatologic Surgery at the University of Toronto, says it's important to understand that all hyaluronic acid is the same. "In fact, so much so that your hyaluronic acid is identical to mine and identical to any species even. Originally, before they started making it synthetically, they used to get it from a rooster."

One of the main reasons dermatologists use it as an injectable is because it naturally occurs in our skin, he adds. "We can inject it in there and our body doesn't really see it as foreign," says Solish, who is one of Canada's first cosmetic dermatologists to use Botox.

Many fillers with hyaluronic acid are on or are coming to the market. "The first one on the market to be big and do really well was Restylane," Solish says. "It comes in different thicknesses. Restylane was sort of the middle one, and they make a thicker one called Perlane, and there's a thinner one, but I don't think that you have it in the U.S. It's called Restylane Fine Line in Canada." He says that the other main player in the North American market is Juvéderm and that it comes in different thicknesses as well.

"I'd hazard to guess that 80% to 90% of fillers are hyaluronic acid, and that's for good reason," Solish says. "They work well, they're safe, and they're easy to use. And importantly, they are reversible, so if you inject someone and for any reason they decided to change their mind, there is an anecdote — something that you can put in and literally within hours it's gone."

Hyaluronic acid is a popular ingredient in topical beauty products, such as moisturizers and makeup, as well. One of the substance's features is that it draws moisture from the air and is said to hold up to 1, 000 times its weight in water.

"When you apply it topically, the molecule is too big to get hyaluronic acid through the skin. So when we inject it to fill a wrinkle or line it works well. [But] when you put it on topically it's a misconception that it's all going into the skin," Solish says.

"It forms a barrier on the skin and gives a soft moisturizing effect that makes skin smoother … but it doesn't eliminate wrinkles," he adds.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/07/image/la-ig-beauty-20100606
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Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:05 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
ketchup wrote:
I seen Hyaluronic Acid as being on some of your lists but not really discussed yet and im willing to wait my turn, but i myself would like to know more about it. I've read Dr. P's biochemist view on this as being be bad active for skin, yet its in many many products. Avoiding it is like trying avoid products with eggs.

Is it all that bad?


Hyaluronic Acid topically, or filler by injection?

Hyaluronic Acid is very important, but the key is to get your own fibroblasts to make more, not to slather it on. It's way to big to be absorbed, but does hold a lot of water (like most big molecules).

From an L.A. Times article:

Although buzz-worthy ingredients can be quite effective, with the ever-increasing mix of new technologies and formulas, it can be confusing to figure out what works best for your particular needs.

So, first of all, some facts: Hyaluronic acid is a viscous, gooey substance that's a key component in connective tissue. It lubricates the joints and even sustains the shape of the eyeballs. Dr. Nowell Solish, a cosmetic dermatologist, dermatological surgeon and director of Dermatologic Surgery at the University of Toronto, says it's important to understand that all hyaluronic acid is the same. "In fact, so much so that your hyaluronic acid is identical to mine and identical to any species even. Originally, before they started making it synthetically, they used to get it from a rooster."

One of the main reasons dermatologists use it as an injectable is because it naturally occurs in our skin, he adds. "We can inject it in there and our body doesn't really see it as foreign," says Solish, who is one of Canada's first cosmetic dermatologists to use Botox.

Many fillers with hyaluronic acid are on or are coming to the market. "The first one on the market to be big and do really well was Restylane," Solish says. "It comes in different thicknesses. Restylane was sort of the middle one, and they make a thicker one called Perlane, and there's a thinner one, but I don't think that you have it in the U.S. It's called Restylane Fine Line in Canada." He says that the other main player in the North American market is Juvéderm and that it comes in different thicknesses as well.

"I'd hazard to guess that 80% to 90% of fillers are hyaluronic acid, and that's for good reason," Solish says. "They work well, they're safe, and they're easy to use. And importantly, they are reversible, so if you inject someone and for any reason they decided to change their mind, there is an anecdote — something that you can put in and literally within hours it's gone."

Hyaluronic acid is a popular ingredient in topical beauty products, such as moisturizers and makeup, as well. One of the substance's features is that it draws moisture from the air and is said to hold up to 1, 000 times its weight in water.

"When you apply it topically, the molecule is too big to get hyaluronic acid through the skin. So when we inject it to fill a wrinkle or line it works well. [But] when you put it on topically it's a misconception that it's all going into the skin," Solish says.

"It forms a barrier on the skin and gives a soft moisturizing effect that makes skin smoother … but it doesn't eliminate wrinkles," he adds.


Thanks! I was wondering about it topically because I got interested about it after I had read Dr. Pickart's view on hyaluronic acid.

What kind of barrier does it form? Like one that prevents water loss or more like a protective barrier from outside pollutants? This is a good kind of barrier I assume that lets the skin breath.. or so I hope. My toner has hyaluronic acid in it and it does help make the skin soft. But i just want to make sure its not something that is going to give me terrible wrinkles in the future like those that use cold creams in the past (another Dr. P read).
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Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm      Reply with quote
Dr. J,

Which peptides, besides copper peptides, do you think are beneficial for anti-aging? TIA
Elvisshops
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:27 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Dr. J,

Which peptides, besides copper peptides, do you think are beneficial for anti-aging? TIA


Including peptides, what products are going to do the most, generally speaking, for people? TIA
jom
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:28 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Dr. J,

Which peptides, besides copper peptides, do you think are beneficial for anti-aging? TIA


Nicky at futurederm read my mind. Here's what she says are the best peptides.

http://www.futurederm.com/2012/03/04/worth-every-penny-peter-thomas-roths-un-wrinkle-turbo-face-serum-review-ingredients/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Futurederm+%28FutureDerm.com%29
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