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DarkMoon
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:37 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
jom wrote:
Dr. J,

Which peptides, besides copper peptides, do you think are beneficial for anti-aging? TIA


Nicky at futurederm read my mind. Here's what she says are the best peptides.

http://www.futurederm.com/2012/03/04/worth-every-penny-peter-thomas-roths-un-wrinkle-turbo-face-serum-review-ingredients/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Futurederm+%28FutureDerm.com%29


Hope you don't mind adding the ingredient list, I think we mostly know which are peptides here. Read jom's link though, it clarifies more.


Ingredients in Un-Wrinkle Turbo Face Serum

Water/Aqua/Eau, Glycerin, Rosa Centifolia Flower Water, Propanediol, Alcohol Denat., Squalene, Tetrapeptide-17, Palmitoyl Dipeptide-10, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-3, Palmitoyl Hexapeptide, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7, Tripeptide-10 Citrulline, Tripeptide-1, Caprooyl Tetrapeptide-3, Acetyl Octapeptide-3, Acetyl Hexapeptide-30, Acetyl Hexapeptide-8, Pentapeptide-18, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-5, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-38, Dipeptide Diaminobutyroyl Benzylamide Diacetate, Acetyl Hexapeptide-25, Sodium Hyaluronate, Arginine, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Retinyl Palmitate (Vitamin A), Ascorbyl Palmitate (Vitamin C), Pseudoalteromonas Ferment Extract, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Acetylaringyltryptophyl Diphenylglycine, Hydroxypropyl Cyclodextrin, Isopropyl Myristate, Butylene Glycol, Polysorbate 20, Gluconolactone, Xanthan Gum, Lecithin, Carbomer, Dextran, Triethanolamine, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Benzoate, Caprylyl Glycol, Propylene Glycol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Ethylparaben, Butylparaben, Phenoxyethanol, Red 33 (Ci 17200).

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Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:23 pm      Reply with quote
Elvisshops wrote:
jom wrote:
Dr. J,

Which peptides, besides copper peptides, do you think are beneficial for anti-aging? TIA


Including peptides, what products are going to do the most, generally speaking, for people? TIA


My experience is that Retin A and Vitamin C provide the most benefit. I also like niacinamide becauae it brightens my skin. It may do more for me than that but I saw so much improvement in my skin just from the Retin A and Vitamin C that I don't expect to be able to see much more of a difference. I also use products that contain soy isoflavones and ceramides and I believe that they are beneficial for hydrating my skin. There is some research on this thread that can back up those beliefs. They are good for barrier repair which my skin needs after using the Retin A.

I just read the futurederm article I posted earlier that said that "palmitoyl pentapeptide has more research on it than any other, at least in topically-applied form. Also known as Matrixyl 3000®, palmitoyl pentapeptide been demonstrated to stimulate feedback regulation of new collagen synthesis and to result in an increased production of extracellular matrix proteins, which include types I and II collagen and fibronectin. In a 2005 study in the International Journal of Cosmetic Science, palmitoyl pentapeptide was found to significantly improve the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, as well as overall moisturization levels, with twice-daily use
Un-Wrinkle Turbo Face Serum also contains the firming peptide palmitoyl oligopeptide. What I love about palmitoyl oligopeptide is that it significantly stimulates collagen production in human fibroblasts, as shown in a 2007 study in Dermatologic Therapy. When used twice daily for a significant period of time – about six months – this means significantly firmer skin, provided that other factors remain the same (i.e., weight, sun exposure, etc.)."
http://www.futurederm.com/2012/03/04/worth-every-penny-peter-thomas-roths-un-wrinkle-turbo-face-serum-review-ingredients/

After reading that I am interested in palmitoyl oligopeptide because I'd like my 49 year old skin to be a little firmer. So I'll be looking into that more.
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:42 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Elvisshops wrote:
jom wrote:
Dr. J,

Which peptides, besides copper peptides, do you think are beneficial for anti-aging? TIA


Including peptides, what products are going to do the most, generally speaking, for people? TIA


My experience is that Retin A and Vitamin C provide the most benefit. I also like niacinamide becauae it brightens my skin. It may do more for me than that but I saw so much improvement in my skin just from the Retin A and Vitamin C that I don't expect to be able to see much more of a difference. I also use products that contain soy isoflavones and ceramides and I believe that they are beneficial for hydrating my skin. There is some research on this thread that can back up those beliefs. They are good for barrier repair which my skin needs after using the Retin A.

I just read the futurederm article I posted earlier that said that "palmitoyl pentapeptide has more research on it than any other, at least in topically-applied form. Also known as Matrixyl 3000®, palmitoyl pentapeptide been demonstrated to stimulate feedback regulation of new collagen synthesis and to result in an increased production of extracellular matrix proteins, which include types I and II collagen and fibronectin. In a 2005 study in the International Journal of Cosmetic Science, palmitoyl pentapeptide was found to significantly improve the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, as well as overall moisturization levels, with twice-daily use
Un-Wrinkle Turbo Face Serum also contains the firming peptide palmitoyl oligopeptide. What I love about palmitoyl oligopeptide is that it significantly stimulates collagen production in human fibroblasts, as shown in a 2007 study in Dermatologic Therapy. When used twice daily for a significant period of time – about six months – this means significantly firmer skin, provided that other factors remain the same (i.e., weight, sun exposure, etc.)."
http://www.futurederm.com/2012/03/04/worth-every-penny-peter-thomas-roths-un-wrinkle-turbo-face-serum-review-ingredients/

After reading that I am interested in palmitoyl oligopeptide because I'd like my 49 year old skin to be a little firmer. So I'll be looking into that more.


I agree with futurederm on this point: "Of the peptides included, palmitoyl pentapeptide has more research on it than any other, at least in topically-applied form." in their review of Peter Thomas Roth’s Un-Wrinkle Turbo Face Serum Review. However, I strongly disagree with their review overall. The product looks like a let's capitalize on peptide buzz words product. I cannot trust any company that takes a "throw in the kitchen sink" approach to formulation. The product even includes the ridiculous argireline (Acetyl Hexapeptide-3) which claims to be a neuromuscular junction blocker, similar to Botox, but topical instead of injection. The problem futurederm fails to mention is that applied on the surface of the skin this peptide cannot get down to the muscle layer where it purportedly acts. And, guess what - if it did your eyelids would start drooping (thinnest skin on the face, most vulnerable muscles). It is so non-science, that any company that hawks this stuff immediately gets put on my snake oil list. Can they not afford a single scientist, even as a consultant? (PTR was on the list already anyway for past sins). Anyway, look for products with Matrixyl - 3000, but ignore all those other "me too" peptides until and unless some better evidence comes along.
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:47 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
jom wrote:
Elvisshops wrote:
jom wrote:
Dr. J,

Which peptides, besides copper peptides, do you think are beneficial for anti-aging? TIA


Including peptides, what products are going to do the most, generally speaking, for people? TIA


My experience is that Retin A and Vitamin C provide the most benefit. I also like niacinamide becauae it brightens my skin. It may do more for me than that but I saw so much improvement in my skin just from the Retin A and Vitamin C that I don't expect to be able to see much more of a difference. I also use products that contain soy isoflavones and ceramides and I believe that they are beneficial for hydrating my skin. There is some research on this thread that can back up those beliefs. They are good for barrier repair which my skin needs after using the Retin A.

I just read the futurederm article I posted earlier that said that "palmitoyl pentapeptide has more research on it than any other, at least in topically-applied form. Also known as Matrixyl 3000®, palmitoyl pentapeptide been demonstrated to stimulate feedback regulation of new collagen synthesis and to result in an increased production of extracellular matrix proteins, which include types I and II collagen and fibronectin. In a 2005 study in the International Journal of Cosmetic Science, palmitoyl pentapeptide was found to significantly improve the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, as well as overall moisturization levels, with twice-daily use
Un-Wrinkle Turbo Face Serum also contains the firming peptide palmitoyl oligopeptide. What I love about palmitoyl oligopeptide is that it significantly stimulates collagen production in human fibroblasts, as shown in a 2007 study in Dermatologic Therapy. When used twice daily for a significant period of time – about six months – this means significantly firmer skin, provided that other factors remain the same (i.e., weight, sun exposure, etc.)."
http://www.futurederm.com/2012/03/04/worth-every-penny-peter-thomas-roths-un-wrinkle-turbo-face-serum-review-ingredients/

After reading that I am interested in palmitoyl oligopeptide because I'd like my 49 year old skin to be a little firmer. So I'll be looking into that more.


I agree with futurederm on this point: "Of the peptides included, palmitoyl pentapeptide has more research on it than any other, at least in topically-applied form." in their review of Peter Thomas Roth’s Un-Wrinkle Turbo Face Serum Review. However, I strongly disagree with their review overall. The product looks like a let's capitalize on peptide buzz words product. I cannot trust any company that takes a "throw in the kitchen sink" approach to formulation. The product even includes the ridiculous argireline (Acetyl Hexapeptide-3) which claims to be a neuromuscular junction blocker, similar to Botox, but topical instead of injection. The problem futurederm fails to mention is that applied on the surface of the skin this peptide cannot get down to the muscle layer where it purportedly acts. And, guess what - if it did your eyelids would start drooping (thinnest skin on the face, most vulnerable muscles). It is so non-science, that any company that hawks this stuff immediately gets put on my snake oil list. Can they not afford a single scientist, even as a consultant? (PTR was on the list already anyway for past sins). Anyway, look for products with Matrixyl - 3000, but ignore all those other "me too" peptides until and unless some better evidence comes along.


Thanks Dr. J. I just realized that a product I use contains palmitoyl oligopeptide. Does that really help firm the skin. And, can anything really make skin firm?
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:20 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Thanks Dr. J. I just realized that a product I use contains palmitoyl oligopeptide. Does that really help firm the skin. And, can anything really make skin firm?


Palmitoyl-Oligopeptide is one of the dual peptides in Matrixyl 3000. The other is Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7. They work best together.

Depends on how you define firm. You can make more elastin & collagen, and that will give a firmer, fuller look. Many actives make that claim, some actually work). You can reduce spongy edema around the eyes, (e.g. with caffeine) and that helps too. You can do facial exercises to strengthen underlying muscles.
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:16 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
jom wrote:
Thanks Dr. J. I just realized that a product I use contains palmitoyl oligopeptide. Does that really help firm the skin. And, can anything really make skin firm?


Palmitoyl-Oligopeptide is one of the dual peptides in Matrixyl 3000. The other is Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7. They work best together.

Depends on how you define firm. You can make more elastin & collagen, and that will give a firmer, fuller look. Many actives make that claim, some actually work). You can reduce spongy edema around the eyes, (e.g. with caffeine) and that helps too. You can do facial exercises to strengthen underlying muscles.


Thanks, does Palmitoyl Tripeptide-5 have the same effect as Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7? Or, what is the difference. Thanks for all your help.
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:47 am      Reply with quote
Dr. J,

How about Kinetin?

Futurederm also spoke highly of it.

http://www.futurederm.com/2011/08/21/best-new-drugstore-cream-of-2011-dr-lewinn-for-kinerase-lift-resculpt-serum-xk-daily-treatment/
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:58 am      Reply with quote
summer2004 wrote:
Dr. J,

How about Kinetin?

Futurederm also spoke highly of it.

http://www.futurederm.com/2011/08/21/best-new-drugstore-cream-of-2011-dr-lewinn-for-kinerase-lift-resculpt-serum-xk-daily-treatment/


I like kinetin in general, but frankly consider it to be a second line active. It does lots of good things, but everything it does can be done by something else, generally with more potency. E.g. it is an antioxidant, but its OREC value is only about 130 (others get up above 200). It seems to enhance the effect of other actives like niacinamide. I would not be impressed with a cream with kinetin as the sole or primary active.


Here is a summary abstracted from a cosmeceutical review publication:

Kinetin is an essential plant growth hormone that regulates aspects of growth and differentiation, retards leaf yellowing and senescence, and slows down fruit ripening and degeneration.

The authors were unable to find any studies investigating the percutaneous absorption of kinetin. However, kinetin has been shown to be nonirritating to the skin, easily formulated, chemically stable, and compatible with other formulation components.

Studies on human fibroblasts in vitro have demonstrated that kinetin may have the ability to delay the onset of age-related changes as well as decrease the severity of these changes.23 These age-related changes include the alteration in cell size and shape, growth rates, cytoskeletal structure, macromolecular synthesis, and quantity of lipofuscin. The delay of age-related cellular characteristics were most pronounced in cultures where kinetin was continuously present. It was noted that some aging characteristics began to reappear upon removal of kinetin, and youthful characteristics in general were better maintained in younger cells compared to older cells. This suggests that continued use of kinetin is necessary to maintain results and that there may be additional benefit to starting kinetin at a younger age. However, the mechanism by which kinetin exerts its effects on human fibroblasts remains elusive.

Antioxidant effects. Investigators have surmised that the mechanism of action that results in age retardation may involve the genes that influence aging and may involve kinetin acting as both an inhibitor of reactive oxygen species (ROS) formation and a scavenger of ROS.

Many studies have shown kinetin to be a powerful antioxidant. Kinetin has the ability to mimic superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity, activate both SOD and catalase expression, and quench ROS.28,29,35,36 Also, kinetin has been shown to prevent the oxidation of unsaturated fatty acids and inhibit the in-vitro oxidation of DNA. Kinetin can inhibit the oxidation and glycation/glycoxidation of proteins. By inhibiting the oxidation and glycation/glycoxidation of proteins, kinetin inhibits the formation of advanced glycation/glycoxidation end products (AGE).

Although clinical studies of topical kinetin have suggested improvement in skin texture, a decrease in hyperpigmentation, and a decrease in TEWL, there appears to be no reported mechanisms for how kinetin improves skin texture, fine wrinkles, hyperpigmentation, and/or the SC permeability barrier.

One open-label study about the clinical safety and efficacy of kinetin 0.1% lotion on human skin. Ninety-six subjects with photodamaged skin showed improvement in the categories of skin texture, color, blotchiness, and fine wrinkles after 24 weeks of twice-daily application of 0.01%, 0.05%, or 0.10% kinetin. Average improvements ranged from 17 to 63 percent over baseline. In addition, the results of this study suggest that kinetin improves barrier function of the SC, as evidenced by a mean decrease in TEWL after 14 weeks of use. Hence, this demonstrated that topical kinetin (0.01%–0.1%) can partially improve some of the clinical signs of mild-to-moderately photodamaged skin, such as skin texture, fine wrinkles, skin color, and blotchiness, and can help restore normal skin barrier function with 12 to 24 weeks of topical application.

Another study investigated the anti-aging effects of topical kinetin 0.03% in combination with niacinamide 4% versus niacinamide 4% alone in Asians, and found that the combination of kinetin and niacinamide and niacinamide alone effectively improved many of the facial aging signs in Asians. This combination of ingredients reduced the number of hyperpigmented spots and red blotchiness as well as increased SC hydration status with more persistence than the formula containing niacinamide alone.

http://pubmedcentralcanada.ca/articlerender.cgi?accid=PMC2921764
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:53 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:


I like kinetin in general, but frankly consider it to be a second line active. It does lots of good things, but everything it does can be done by something else, generally with more potency. E.g. it is an antioxidant, but its OREC value is only about 130 (others get up above 200). It seems to enhance the effect of other actives like niacinamide. I would not be impressed with a cream with kinetin as the sole or primary active.



Hi Dr J,

what active would you recommend would work as good as, or better than Kinetin?

many thanks

Jackie xx
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:51 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
DrJ wrote:
jom wrote:
Thanks Dr. J. I just realized that a product I use contains palmitoyl oligopeptide. Does that really help firm the skin. And, can anything really make skin firm?


Palmitoyl-Oligopeptide is one of the dual peptides in Matrixyl 3000. The other is Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7. They work best together.

Depends on how you define firm. You can make more elastin & collagen, and that will give a firmer, fuller look. Many actives make that claim, some actually work). You can reduce spongy edema around the eyes, (e.g. with caffeine) and that helps too. You can do facial exercises to strengthen underlying muscles.


Thanks, does Palmitoyl Tripeptide-5 have the same effect as Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7? Or, what is the difference. Thanks for all your help.


I answered my own question! Laughing Here's a link to some information about peptides:
http://www.ageless-beauty.com/cosmeceutical-peptide.html
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Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:02 pm      Reply with quote
Jackie284 wrote:
DrJ wrote:


I like kinetin in general, but frankly consider it to be a second line active. It does lots of good things, but everything it does can be done by something else, generally with more potency. E.g. it is an antioxidant, but its OREC value is only about 130 (others get up above 200). It seems to enhance the effect of other actives like niacinamide. I would not be impressed with a cream with kinetin as the sole or primary active.



Hi Dr J,

what active would you recommend would work as good as, or better than Kinetin?

many thanks

Jackie xx


Hi Jackie.

Here is a short list of actives I think have good medical evidence supporting their inclusion as first level ingredients.

Niacinamide
Soy Isoflavones,
Retinol (Vitamin A)or various retinoids,
Tocopheryl(Vitamin E)
Vitamin C (Ester)
Ubiquinone (Coenzyme Q10),
Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B5)
L-Carnosine
Niacinamide (vitamin B3)
Matrixyl 3000(palmitoyl oligopeptide & palmitoyl-tetrapeptide-7)
Antiglycation agents (e.g. longevicell)
Several polyphenols
Various antioxidants
Various essential oils
Cu++ peptides (but problematic for many)

...and of course the superstar (because it's own work) stem cytokines
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:26 am      Reply with quote
I am really surprised by the Matrixyl on the list, Dr. J, as well as the essential oils! (The EO's can be extremely irritating for people with sensitive skin and I am not aware of any studies,other than the manufacturers, on Matrixyl??)
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:48 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
I am really surprised by the Matrixyl on the list, Dr. J, as well as the essential oils! (The EO's can be extremely irritating for people with sensitive skin and I am not aware of any studies,other than the manufacturers, on Matrixyl??)


As much as I personally love them AGREE 100% on EO's as many are very sensitive to them.

Didn't John (oh boy) post studies on Matrixyl 3000?

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:02 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
I am really surprised by the Matrixyl on the list, Dr. J, as well as the essential oils! (The EO's can be extremely irritating for people with sensitive skin and I am not aware of any studies,other than the manufacturers, on Matrixyl??)


As much as I personally love them AGREE 100% on EO's as many are very sensitive to them.

Didn't John (oh boy) post studies on Matrixyl 3000?


I suppose EOs can be irritating - but so can anything else if you're that way inclined. Look at all the varying reactions to Retin-A. But EOs have been at the forefront of skincare for thousands of years so I don't think they should be dismissed.

John had some info on the difference between Matrixyl and Matrixyl 3000 - I think he preferred the first version, but my memory about it all is a bit hazy.

Lovely to see you back on deck DM! Very Happy

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:02 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
I am really surprised by the Matrixyl on the list, Dr. J, as well as the essential oils! (The EO's can be extremely irritating for people with sensitive skin and I am not aware of any studies,other than the manufacturers, on Matrixyl??)


EO's are problematic, but do have some interesting properties as a class with many entrants. I

Matrixyl has a fair amount of evidence, although the bulk is from manufacturers. That tends to be true, for a lot of reasons, But since some of it comes from P&G labs, I tend to trust it. I've worked with P&G, and they tend to be hone4st, solid scientists without a hype agenda. They even publish negative findings.

The in vitro work on pro-collagen peptides (or CMP's - collagen mimetic peptides)has been widely replicated. It is real. It is active in very low doses. TRhe mchanisms of stimulation are pretty well understood biochemically.

The clinical literature is a little less extensive. There are a few "seminal" studies. Here is one:

Int J Cosmet Sci. 2005 Jun;27(3):155-60.

Topical palmitoyl pentapeptide provides improvement in photoaged human facial skin.
Robinson LR, Fitzgerald NC, Doughty DG, Dawes NC, Berge CA, Bissett DL.

The Procter & Gamble Company, Miami Valley Laboratories, Cincinnati, OH, USA.
Abstract

The palmitoyl pentapeptide palmitoyl-lysine-threonine-threonine-lysine-serine (pal-KTTKS) is a synthetic material that was designed as a topical agent to stimulate collagen production and thus provide a skin anti-wrinkle benefit. To determine if pal-KTTKS is effective, the clinical study reported here was conducted. Caucasian female subjects (n = 93, aged 35-55) participated in a 12-week, double-blind, placebo-controlled, split-face, left-right randomized clinical study assessing two topical products: moisturizer control product vs. the same moisturizer product containing 3 ppm pal-KTTKS. Pal-KTTKS was well tolerated by the skin and provided significant improvement vs. placebo control for reduction in wrinkles/fine lines by both quantitative technical and expert grader image analysis. In self-assessments, subjects also reported significant fine line/wrinkle improvements and noted directional effects for other facial improvement parameters.

This P&G momograph has lots of info and 28 references. I've read most of them. Again, at the in vitro data and the mechanisms add up. More than I can say for most ingredients.
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:15 pm      Reply with quote
Here is that P&G monograph.

http://www.pgdermatology.com/downloads/documents/Pentapeptide-Brochure-FINAL-090805.pdf
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:26 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
I am really surprised by the Matrixyl on the list, Dr. J, as well as the essential oils! (The EO's can be extremely irritating for people with sensitive skin and I am not aware of any studies,other than the manufacturers, on Matrixyl??)


As much as I personally love them AGREE 100% on EO's as many are very sensitive to them.

Didn't John (oh boy) post studies on Matrixyl 3000?


I suppose EOs can be irritating - but so can anything else if you're that way inclined. Look at all the varying reactions to Retin-A. But EOs have been at the forefront of skincare for thousands of years so I don't think they should be dismissed.

John had some info on the difference between Matrixyl and Matrixyl 3000 - I think he preferred the first version, but my memory about it all is a bit hazy.

Lovely to see you back on deck DM! Very Happy


I agree Keliu, I for one can't use artificial fragrances which have no benefit other than smelling nice. We have seen on this forum where many members can react to the most innocuous ingredients.

My memory is just as hazy re: just what John posted on that thread too, I know he started it because P&G (if memory serves) was about to have exclusive rights to Matrixyl (not 3000)

It's great to see you again as well, I have missed your posts, and wit. Very Happy

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:57 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Here is that P&G monograph.

http://www.pgdermatology.com/downloads/documents/Pentapeptide-Brochure-FINAL-090805.pdf


Thank you for the link. I'll give it a read!
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:56 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:

Here is a short list of actives I think have good medical evidence supporting their inclusion as first level ingredients.

Niacinamide
Soy Isoflavones,
Retinol (Vitamin A)or various retinoids,
Tocopheryl(Vitamin E)
Vitamin C (Ester)
Ubiquinone (Coenzyme Q10),
Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B5)
L-Carnosine
Niacinamide (vitamin B3)
Matrixyl 3000(palmitoyl oligopeptide & palmitoyl-tetrapeptide-7)Antiglycation agents (e.g. longevicell)
Several polyphenols
Various antioxidants
Various essential oils
Cu++ peptides (but problematic for many)

...and of course the superstar (because it's own work) stem cytokines


DrJ wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
I am really surprised by the Matrixyl on the list, Dr. J, as well as the essential oils! (The EO's can be extremely irritating for people with sensitive skin and I am not aware of any studies,other than the manufacturers, on Matrixyl??)


Matrixyl has a fair amount of evidence, although the bulk is from manufacturers. That tends to be true, for a lot of reasons, But since some of it comes from P&G labs, I tend to trust it. I've worked with P&G, and they tend to be honest, solid scientists without a hype agenda. They even publish negative findings.

The in vitro work on pro-collagen peptides (or CMP's - collagen mimetic peptides)has been widely replicated. It is real. It is active in very low doses. TRhe mchanisms of stimulation are pretty well understood biochemically.

The clinical literature is a little less extensive. There are a few "seminal" studies. Here is one:

Int J Cosmet Sci. 2005 Jun;27(3):155-60.

Topical palmitoyl pentapeptide provides improvement in photoaged human facial skin.
Robinson LR, Fitzgerald NC, Doughty DG, Dawes NC, Berge CA, Bissett DL.

The Procter & Gamble Company, Miami Valley Laboratories, Cincinnati, OH, USA.
Abstract

The palmitoyl pentapeptide palmitoyl-lysine-threonine-threonine-lysine-serine (pal-KTTKS) is a synthetic material that was designed as a topical agent to stimulate collagen production and thus provide a skin anti-wrinkle benefit. To determine if pal-KTTKS is effective, the clinical study reported here was conducted. Caucasian female subjects (n = 93, aged 35-55) participated in a 12-week, double-blind, placebo-controlled, split-face, left-right randomized clinical study assessing two topical products: moisturizer control product vs. the same moisturizer product containing 3 ppm pal-KTTKS. Pal-KTTKS was well tolerated by the skin and provided significant improvement vs. placebo control for reduction in wrinkles/fine lines by both quantitative technical and expert grader image analysis. In self-assessments, subjects also reported significant fine line/wrinkle improvements and noted directional effects for other facial improvement parameters.

This P&G momograph has lots of info and 28 references. I've read most of them. Again, at the in vitro data and the mechanisms add up. More than I can say for most ingredients.


I too trust P&G and appreciate that they publish the results of their studies, both good and bad. As mentioned on the forum previously, P&G has exclusive use of Matrixyl made by Sederma; however, it may be available from some Asian manufacturers. P&G uses it in their Olay Regenerist line of products along with Niacinamide (and perhaps other lines as well; I'm not sure).

Matrixyl 3000 is a different ingredient. That ingredient is also from Sederma and is widely available in products from various smaller companies. However, I haven't seen it used by the majors (and I wonder why). The only information I have seen on the effectiveness of Matrixyl 3000 comes from Selderma, including a direct comparison to the original Matrixyl:

http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/Matrixyl3000report.pdf

Which one are you recommending Dr. J? Or do you recommend both?

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:32 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
DrJ wrote:

Here is a short list of actives I think have good medical evidence supporting their inclusion as first level ingredients.

Niacinamide
Soy Isoflavones,
Retinol (Vitamin A)or various retinoids,
Tocopheryl(Vitamin E)
Vitamin C (Ester)
Ubiquinone (Coenzyme Q10),
Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B5)
L-Carnosine
Niacinamide (vitamin B3)
Matrixyl 3000(palmitoyl oligopeptide & palmitoyl-tetrapeptide-7)Antiglycation agents (e.g. longevicell)
Several polyphenols
Various antioxidants
Various essential oils
Cu++ peptides (but problematic for many)

...and of course the superstar (because it's own work) stem cytokines


DrJ wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
I am really surprised by the Matrixyl on the list, Dr. J, as well as the essential oils! (The EO's can be extremely irritating for people with sensitive skin and I am not aware of any studies,other than the manufacturers, on Matrixyl??)


Matrixyl has a fair amount of evidence, although the bulk is from manufacturers. That tends to be true, for a lot of reasons, But since some of it comes from P&G labs, I tend to trust it. I've worked with P&G, and they tend to be honest, solid scientists without a hype agenda. They even publish negative findings.

The in vitro work on pro-collagen peptides (or CMP's - collagen mimetic peptides)has been widely replicated. It is real. It is active in very low doses. TRhe mchanisms of stimulation are pretty well understood biochemically.

The clinical literature is a little less extensive. There are a few "seminal" studies. Here is one:

Int J Cosmet Sci. 2005 Jun;27(3):155-60.

Topical palmitoyl pentapeptide provides improvement in photoaged human facial skin.
Robinson LR, Fitzgerald NC, Doughty DG, Dawes NC, Berge CA, Bissett DL.

The Procter & Gamble Company, Miami Valley Laboratories, Cincinnati, OH, USA.
Abstract

The palmitoyl pentapeptide palmitoyl-lysine-threonine-threonine-lysine-serine (pal-KTTKS) is a synthetic material that was designed as a topical agent to stimulate collagen production and thus provide a skin anti-wrinkle benefit. To determine if pal-KTTKS is effective, the clinical study reported here was conducted. Caucasian female subjects (n = 93, aged 35-55) participated in a 12-week, double-blind, placebo-controlled, split-face, left-right randomized clinical study assessing two topical products: moisturizer control product vs. the same moisturizer product containing 3 ppm pal-KTTKS. Pal-KTTKS was well tolerated by the skin and provided significant improvement vs. placebo control for reduction in wrinkles/fine lines by both quantitative technical and expert grader image analysis. In self-assessments, subjects also reported significant fine line/wrinkle improvements and noted directional effects for other facial improvement parameters.

This P&G momograph has lots of info and 28 references. I've read most of them. Again, at the in vitro data and the mechanisms add up. More than I can say for most ingredients.


I too trust P&G and appreciate that they publish the results of their studies, both good and bad. As mentioned on the forum previously, P&G has exclusive use of Matrixyl made by Sederma; however, it may be available from some Asian manufacturers. P&G uses it in their Olay Regenerist line of products along with Niacinamide (and perhaps other lines as well; I'm not sure).

Matrixyl 3000 is a different ingredient. That ingredient is also from Sederma and is widely available in products from various smaller companies. However, I haven't seen it used by the majors (and I wonder why). The only information I have seen on the effectiveness of Matrixyl 3000 comes from Selderma, including a direct comparison to the original Matrixyl:

http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/Matrixyl3000report.pdf

Which one are you recommending Dr. J? Or do you recommend both?


Here is a review paper from outside PEG and Sederma.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00657.x/abstract

I say both, but will caution myself from being overzealous. This comes partly from the fact that these peptides are all really synthetic cytokines (in fact we we call them matrikines), and so they relate to my work. But I am used to entire cascades of cytokines (patterns) so fussing about just one in isolation makes me ambivalent. I like to play with a full deck, not just one or two cards.
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Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:01 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
The authors were unable to find any studies investigating the percutaneous absorption of kinetin. However, kinetin has been shown to be nonirritating to the skin, easily formulated, chemically stable, and compatible with other formulation components.

Studies on human fibroblasts in vitro have demonstrated that kinetin may have the ability to delay the onset of age-related changes as well as decrease the severity of these changes.23 These age-related changes include the alteration in cell size and shape, growth rates, cytoskeletal structure, macromolecular synthesis, and quantity of lipofuscin. The delay of age-related cellular characteristics were most pronounced in cultures where kinetin was continuously present. It was noted that some aging characteristics began to reappear upon removal of kinetin,Doesn't that kind of happen with a whole host of others DrJ...yes..it does. It's not unique to Kinetin. and youthful characteristics in general were better maintained in younger cells compared to older cells.So...no permanent fountain of youth to be found their either? Wink This suggests that continued use of kinetin is necessary to maintain results and that there may be additional benefit to starting kinetin at a younger age. However, the mechanism by which kinetin exerts its effects on human fibroblasts remains elusive.

Antioxidant effects. Investigators have surmised that the mechanism of action that results in age retardation may involve the genes that influence aging and may involve kinetin acting as both an inhibitor of reactive oxygen species (ROS) formation and a scavenger of ROS.

Many studies have shown kinetin to be a powerful antioxidant. Kinetin has the ability to mimic superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity, activate both SOD and catalase expression, and quench ROS.28,29,35,36 Also, kinetin has been shown to prevent the oxidation of unsaturated fatty acids and inhibit the in-vitro oxidation of DNA. Kinetin can inhibit the oxidation and glycation/glycoxidation of proteins. By inhibiting the oxidation and glycation/glycoxidation of proteins, kinetin inhibits the formation of advanced glycation/glycoxidation end products (AGE).

Although clinical studies of topical kinetin have suggested improvement in skin texture, a decrease in hyperpigmentation, and a decrease in TEWL, there appears to be no reported mechanisms for how kinetin improves skin texture, fine wrinkles, hyperpigmentation, and/or the SC permeability barrier.


You call that second line ?? ...Second to what exactly? Idebenone does out perform in a number of parameters...true...but across the board based on the current plethora of peptides and other spookums with the blinding lack of proof...I'd suggest that it is way away ahead of Matrixyl and M3000. Wink
DrJ wrote:

Longevicell

Manufactured by Silab

Used in applications such as : Skincare

Product Description : Longevicell is an oligosaccharide purified fraction obtained from myrtle. This active ingredient favors the expression of markers specifically involved in celluar longevity, regulates signalling pathways and limits the phenomenon of glycation. Longevicell reduces therefore skin aging signs and is recommended for face care products to maintain skin youthness.


What a cheezeball name.

Where's the data?

Wink
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Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:15 am      Reply with quote
DragoN wrote:
DrJ wrote:
The authors were unable to find any studies investigating the percutaneous absorption of kinetin. However, kinetin has been shown to be nonirritating to the skin, easily formulated, chemically stable, and compatible with other formulation components.

Studies on human fibroblasts in vitro have demonstrated that kinetin may have the ability to delay the onset of age-related changes as well as decrease the severity of these changes.23 These age-related changes include the alteration in cell size and shape, growth rates, cytoskeletal structure, macromolecular synthesis, and quantity of lipofuscin. The delay of age-related cellular characteristics were most pronounced in cultures where kinetin was continuously present. It was noted that some aging characteristics began to reappear upon removal of kinetin,Doesn't that kind of happen with a whole host of others DrJ...yes..it does. It's not unique to Kinetin. and youthful characteristics in general were better maintained in younger cells compared to older cells.So...no permanent fountain of youth to be found their either? Wink This suggests that continued use of kinetin is necessary to maintain results and that there may be additional benefit to starting kinetin at a younger age. However, the mechanism by which kinetin exerts its effects on human fibroblasts remains elusive.

Antioxidant effects. Investigators have surmised that the mechanism of action that results in age retardation may involve the genes that influence aging and may involve kinetin acting as both an inhibitor of reactive oxygen species (ROS) formation and a scavenger of ROS.

Many studies have shown kinetin to be a powerful antioxidant. Kinetin has the ability to mimic superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity, activate both SOD and catalase expression, and quench ROS.28,29,35,36 Also, kinetin has been shown to prevent the oxidation of unsaturated fatty acids and inhibit the in-vitro oxidation of DNA. Kinetin can inhibit the oxidation and glycation/glycoxidation of proteins. By inhibiting the oxidation and glycation/glycoxidation of proteins, kinetin inhibits the formation of advanced glycation/glycoxidation end products (AGE).

Although clinical studies of topical kinetin have suggested improvement in skin texture, a decrease in hyperpigmentation, and a decrease in TEWL, there appears to be no reported mechanisms for how kinetin improves skin texture, fine wrinkles, hyperpigmentation, and/or the SC permeability barrier.


You call that second line ?? ...Second to what exactly? Idebenone does out perform in a number of parameters...true...but across the board based on the current plethora of peptides and other spookums with the blinding lack of proof...I'd suggest that it is way away ahead of Matrixyl and M3000. Wink
DrJ wrote:

Longevicell

Manufactured by Silab

Used in applications such as : Skincare

Product Description : Longevicell is an oligosaccharide purified fraction obtained from myrtle. This active ingredient favors the expression of markers specifically involved in celluar longevity, regulates signalling pathways and limits the phenomenon of glycation. Longevicell reduces therefore skin aging signs and is recommended for face care products to maintain skin youthness.


What a cheezeball name.

Where's the data?

Wink


I'll leave kinetin alone. Agree data is mixed or weak.

I am surprised my botanophilic friend has not yet discovered the amazing wonderful nature altering effects of myrtle communis. Maybe because it's Mediterranean, not rain forest?

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/329/1/76.full.pdf+html

Potent (so the papers say). TNF-alpha and IL-1 beta suppressors. Those are nasty little cytokines.

May even be a really good NSAI

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697720/pdf/bph0156-0952.pdf

Then there are those secondary metabolites:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3111689/?tool=pubmed

And if you order in the next 10 minutes, you will also get ... antigenotoxic, free radical scavenging highly potent antioxidants.

Mutat Res. 2004 Nov 14;564(1):89-95.
Anti-genotoxic and free-radical scavenging activities of extracts from (Tunisian) Myrtus communis.
Hayder N, Abdelwahed A, Kilani S, Ammar RB, Mahmoud A, Ghedira K, Chekir-Ghedira L.
Source

Laboratoire de Biochimie et de Biologie Moléculaire, Faculté de Pharmacie de Monastir, Rue Avicenne, 5000 Monastir, Tunisie.
Abstract

The effect of extracts from leaves of Myrtus communis on the SOS reponse induced by Aflatoxin B1 (AFB1) and Nifuroxazide was investigated in a bacterial assay system, i.e. the SOS chromotest with Escherichia coli PQ37. Aqueous extract, the total flavonoids oligomer fraction (TOF), hexane, chloroform, ethyl acetate and methanol extracts and essential oil obtained from M. communis significantly decreased the SOS response induced by AFB1 (10 microg/assay) and Nifuroxazide (20 microg/assay). Ethyl acetate and methanol extracts showed the strongest inhibition of the induction of the SOS response by the indirectly genotoxic AFB1. The methanol and aqueous extracts exhibited the highest level of protection towards the SOS-induced response by the directly genotoxic Nifuroxazide. In addition to anti-genotoxic activity, the aqueous extract, the TOF, and the ethyl acetate and methanol extracts showed an important free-radical scavenging activity towards the 1,1-diphenyl-2-picrylhydrazyl (DPPH) radical. These results suggest the future utilization of these extracts as additives in chemoprevention studies.

I ask you, who could ask for anything more?
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Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:21 am      Reply with quote
As another lover of essential oils and plant based stuff I can answer about the lack of popularity of the myrtle. It's highly toxic, so it has no tradition in skin care. It has in warfare though.
There has been a short topic on the myrtle miracle stuff here on EDS. There was one (1) brand new cosmetics brand that based its business on the stuff. A very beautifully made website, but the information on it I could not check anywhere else.

BTW did you see my question elsewhere on the forum re. soy isoflavones? I am surprised about the lack of info by users on the web. I did find a study that compared soy isoflavones (very high dosage) with estrogen cream, and the isoflavones of course did much less but still increased skin thickness and vascularity, but still, the silence puzzles me.
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Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:28 am      Reply with quote
DragoN wrote:
Doesn't that kind of happen with a whole host of others DrJ...yes..it does. It's not unique to Kinetin.

So...no permanent fountain of youth to be found their either?


Hi DragoN! I am confused, as I thought you liked Kinetin and had a DIY kit that you sell with that ingredient in it? Are you not liking Kinetin any more, and if not why? TIA!
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Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:31 am      Reply with quote
Lotusesther wrote:

BTW did you see my question elsewhere on the forum re. soy isoflavones? I am surprised about the lack of info by users on the web. I did find a study that compared soy isoflavones (very high dosage) with estrogen cream, and the isoflavones of course did much less but still increased skin thickness and vascularity, but still, the silence puzzles me.


I think you may find this is due to 2 camps of thought those who specifically avoid soy because of it's estrogenic properties for various reasons, and those who use either prescribed or web purchased esterol, estrogen, or a combo progesterone/estrogen facial cream. Speculation on my part, however there is a thread on the subject on EDS.

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