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DrJ
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:18 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
It has been my understanding that Retinol should not be used in the day (some even say inside lighting degrades it) and it causes skin to be more sensitive to the sun? Some essential oils are also not recommended for daytime use due to causing the skin to be photosensitive as well, however those aren't divulged as of this posting.

Correct me where I am misinformed please.


Two parts to this answer. The first is that retinoids other than tretinoin (e.g. Retin-A) have in recent studies been shown to be as effective as tretinoin but not nearly as irritating. Sun sensitivity goes along with this, so it is less with retinoids (but not absent).

Some of the sun sensitivity has to do with oxidation of the molecule itself when exposed to sunlight. How fast it gets converted to its active (and most irritating) form. So you will notice a number of high OREC antioxidants in the accelerator to accompany the retonoids. Think of them as molecular shepherds.

Now, in addition, we of course advise a top layer of physical sunscreen over the accelerator during the day. More on that later.

OK, now the other principle is that not everyone's skin is the same. Some are more sensitive than others.
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:23 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
I know carnosine is in Skinactives CHAS serum and I have heard good things about ti as an active, but don't recall exactly what at the moment! Confused Would need to research it again.....

CHAS:

Water, sea kelp bioferment, sodium PCA, magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, niacinamide, L-carnosine, L-carnitine, tetrahydrocurcuminoids, ferulic acid, hyaluronic acid, green tea epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), hesperidin methyl chalcone, aloe polysaccharides, lycopene, glutathione, glutaredoxin, superoxide dismutase, propylene glycol (and) diazolidinyl urea (and) methylparaben (and) propylparaben


Carnosine has lots of good supportive research. Isn't that right DragoN?
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:24 am      Reply with quote
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2075811/pdf/brjcancer00036-0096.pdf
Apparently it is one of the most effective anti glycation agents. It is naturally produced in the body by carnosine synthetase, however it is also rapidly broken down by carnosinase.

L carnosine is able to rejuvenate senescent fibroblasts as was show in the work of McFarland and Holiday ^^^^, in a dose dependent manner. The cells showed an increase in population as well as chronological time. Senescent cells were taken from an L carnosine deficient media and placed in an L carnosine rich media where they regained their non senescent properties. This was concluded to be due to the active participation of L carnosine in cellular metabolism.

Tell me more.... Very Happy

And yerba mate? Much like Coffeeberry yes? But check that standardization....

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Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:05 pm      Reply with quote
DragoN wrote:
And the yerba mate? Much like Coffeeberry yes? But check that standardization....


interesting blend of polyphenols ... like green tea extract but better
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:12 pm      Reply with quote
That's what you claim....but where is the research?

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Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:14 pm      Reply with quote
DragoN wrote:
That's what you claim....but where is the research?


Molecules. 2007 Mar 12;12(3):423-32.
Phenolic antioxidants identified by ESI-MS from Yerba maté (Ilex paraguariensis) and green tea (Camelia sinensis) extracts.
Bastos DH, Saldanha LA, Catharino RR, Sawaya AC, Cunha IB, Carvalho PO, Eberlin MN.
Source

Nutrition Department, School of Public Health, São Paulo University, Av. Dr. Arnaldo, 715, São Paulo, SP, Brazil. dmbastos@usp.br
Abstract

Aqueous extracts of green yerba maté (Ilex paraguariensis) and green tea (Camellia sinensis) are good sources of phenolic antioxidants, as already described in the literature. The subject of this study were organic extracts from yerba maté, both green and roasted, and from green tea. Their phenolic profiles were characterized by direct infusion electrospray insertion mass spectrometry (ESI-MS) and their free radical scavenging activity was determined by the DPPH assay. Organic extracts containing phenolic antioxidants might be used as natural antioxidants by the food industry, replacing the synthetic phenolic additives used nowadays. Ethanolic and aqueous extracts from green yerba maté, roasted yerba maté and green tea showed excellent DPPH scavenging activity (>89%). The ether extracts from green and roasted yerba maté displayed a weak scavenging activity, different from the behavior observed for the green tea ether extract. The main phenolic compounds identified in green yerba maté water and ethanolic extracts were: caffeic acid, quinic acid, caffeoyl glucose, caffeoylquinic acid, feruloylquinic acid, dicaffeoylquinic acid and rutin. After the roasting process two new compounds were formed: caffeoylshikimic acid and dicaffeoylshikimic acid. The ethanolic extracts from yerba maté, both roasted and green, with lower content of phenolic compounds (3.80 and 2.83 mg/mL) presented high antioxidant activity and even at very low phenolic concentrations, ether extract from GT (0.07 mg/mL) inhibited DPPH over 90%.
DrJ
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:19 pm      Reply with quote
Int J Cosmet Sci. 2010 Feb;32(1):73-80. Epub 2009 Oct 10.

Antioxidant kinetics of plant-derived substances and extracts.

Silva AR, Menezes PF, Martinello T, Novakovich GF, Praes CE, Feferman IH.
Source

O Boticário, Av. Rui Barbosa n degrees 3450, 83055-900 São José dos Pinhais, Brazil.
Abstract

The antioxidant activity (AA) of substances present in several plant species has been widely studied which reflects their fundamental role in the protection of skin tissue against the harmful action of reactive oxygen species. Given the importance of effective and long-lasting protection against ultraviolet radiation, we studied the AA of several plant derivatives and extracts over time. Several chemical in vitro methods may be used to evaluate antioxidant capability, among which the 1,1-diphenyl-2-picrylhydrazyl (DPPH) method stands out, despite its unspecificity, as the most cited and described method in the literature. In this work the AA was evaluated by measuring their capacity to reduce DPPH in 30 min, which is suggested in the literature, and additionally at different times up to 8 h from the baseline reading. The methodology used to evaluate the AA over time was validated. It is important to emphasize that this study proposes to modify the conventional DPPH method, although considered to be non-specific, to be used to test new antioxidant agents. This represents a considerable advantage because some substances show no significant activity during the first 30 min of reaction. Among other plant products, we tested a proantocyanidin-rich grapeseed extract, a hesperidin derivative, a rutin-containing ginkgo extract, a polyphenol-containing yerba maté extract and tocopheryl acetate, all of which were properly standardized. As they have different antioxidant profiles, each ingredient showed a specific behaviour over time, which may promote the selection of anti-radical compounds capable of offering protection against external agents. Combining extracts and plant derivatives that present fast, medium and slow antioxidant kinetic it is possible to create complexes capable of offering an effective protection from the moment of application up to several hours later. It is a perfectly feasible method, and such combinations prove to be more effective and have more durable effect.

And if all that isn't enough, it seems to be able to knock off very early cancers.

Mol Nutr Food Res. 2011 Oct;55(10):1509-22. doi: 10.1002/mnfr.201100128. Epub 2011 Jun 8.
Dicaffeoylquinic acids in Yerba mate (Ilex paraguariensis St. Hilaire) inhibit NF-κB nucleus translocation in macrophages and induce apoptosis by activating caspases-8 and -3 in human colon cancer cells.
Puangpraphant S, Berhow MA, Vermillion K, Potts G, Gonzalez de Mejia E.
Source

Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, 1201 W. Gregory Drive, Urbana, IL 61801, USA.
Abstract
SCOPE:

The biological functions of caffeoylquinic acid (CQA) derivatives from various plant sources have been partially elucidated. The objectives were to isolate and purify diCQAs from Yerba mate tea leaves and assess their anti-inflammatory and anti-cancer capabilities in vitro and explore their mechanism of action.
METHODS AND RESULTS:

Methanol extracts of dried mate leaves were resolved by flash chromatography and further purified resulting in two fractions one containing 3,4- and 3,5-diCQAs and the other 4,5-diCQA with NMR-confirmed structures. Both fractions inhibited LPS-induced RAW 264.7 macrophage inflammation by suppressing nitric oxide/inducible nitric oxide and prostaglandin E(2) /cyclooxygenase-2 pathways through inhibiting nucleus translocation of Nuclear factor κB subunits, p50 and p65. The diCQA fractions inhibited Human colon cancer cells CRL-2577 (RKO) and HT-29 cell proliferation by inducing apoptosis in a time- and concentration-dependent manner, but did not affect the protein levels of p21, p27, p53, and Bax:Bcl-2 ratio in RKO cells. In HT-29 cells, however, the diCQA fractions increased Bax:Bcl-2 ratio. The diCQA fractions increased the activation of caspase-8 leading to cleavage of caspase-3 in both RKO and HT-29 colon cancer cells.
CONCLUSION:

The results suggest that diCQAs in Yerba mate could be potential anti-cancer agents and could mitigate other diseases also associated with inflammation.
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:31 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
It has been my understanding that Retinol should not be used in the day (some even say inside lighting degrades it) and it causes skin to be more sensitive to the sun?


I thought the stink was over retinyl palmitate being used in sunscreens?

Dr. Fernandes (environ) thinks the RP is photoprotective, not photosensitizing (or more correctly photocarcinogenic). I would trust him over the EWG.

http://www.aad.org/stories-and-news/news-releases/analysis-finds-sunscreens-containing-retinyl-palmitate-do-not-cause-skin-cancer
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:38 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
It has been my understanding that Retinol should not be used in the day (some even say inside lighting degrades it) and it causes skin to be more sensitive to the sun?


I thought the stink was over retinyl palmitate being used in sunscreens?

Dr. Fernandes (environ) thinks the RP is photoprotective, not photosensitizing (or more correctly photocarcinogenic). I would trust him over the EWG.

http://www.aad.org/stories-and-news/news-releases/analysis-finds-sunscreens-containing-retinyl-palmitate-do-not-cause-skin-cancer


This is the skin cancer issue. Clearly VitA derivatives are beneficial inthat debate. The other issue is sensitivity (irritation, mainly because newer skin cells more sensitive than older, and with increased turnover the skin is newer).
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:22 pm      Reply with quote
I think it is quite remarkable that nobody asks about stem cytokines, the superstar of the show, and definitely more unique than the supporting characters, who have all been around a while. Is that because you are all thoroughly convinced from our chats in the stem cell/cytokines thread? Or are you just waiting until midnight to come after me with torches and pitchforks?
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:47 pm      Reply with quote
I recall digging into the retinyl palmitate issue when it reared its head and found little to substantiate the dust up...but stand by ready to be corrected Laughing

Also, Dragon and Dr. J - you two have an amazing repartee, would almost guess you know each other IRL.

BFG
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:49 pm      Reply with quote
Perhaps because cytokines are a relatively new player on the scene.

BFG
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:00 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
I think it is quite remarkable that nobody asks about stem cytokines, the superstar of the show, and definitely more unique than the supporting characters, who have all been around a while. Is that because you are all thoroughly convinced from our chats in the stem cell/cytokines thread? Or are you just waiting until midnight to come after me with torches and pitchforks?


I think no one is talking about them at the moment because you asked for a top 5 ingredient and that was not one of them to choose from!

Also, they are new and I don't know if we have enough info to judge them yet.
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:32 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I recall digging into the retinyl palmitate issue when it reared its head and found little to substantiate the dust up...but stand by ready to be corrected Laughing

Also, Dragon and Dr. J - you two have an amazing repartee, would almost guess you know each other IRL.

BFG


Nope, but we have had enough debates & scientific arm wrestles online to have gained a bit of respect for one another, though we don't always agree. In fact, even when we agree we can always find something to disagree on -- if we look a bit closer. She's probably never going to forgive me for NOT adding kinetin to this formulation. (I just forgot - really!). I'm also a fan & supporter of the DIY community, where DragoN's reputation casts a large shadow.
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:47 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
I think it is quite remarkable that nobody asks about stem cytokines, the superstar of the show, and definitely more unique than the supporting characters, who have all been around a while. Is that because you are all thoroughly convinced from our chats in the stem cell/cytokines thread? Or are you just waiting until midnight to come after me with torches and pitchforks?


Even as a current user of a stem cell product, I think the technology is too new. Clinical trials are small. There needs to be some emperical evidence. I might be ok with being a guinea pig, but I can certainly understand others reluctance. How often have we seen new prescription drugs touted as miracles only to end up having serious side effects over time. Vitamin A and C might not be everything, but at least they are time tested.
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:02 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Back to our discussion of actives. I wonder if our forum frequent flyers would like to rank order their impressions of most effective actives for them or in general. Maybe a top five list?

How about:
retinoids (Vit A)
carnosine
Vit C
Vit E
niacinamide

Notice how many on my list are nutritionals?


Copper Peptides
Retinoids
Vitamin C
Vitamin E
Kinetin
Urea

Still studying up on the other ones as I haven't used them yet.

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Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:09 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
And if all that isn't enough, it seems to be able to knock off very early cancers.


CPs (specifically - GHK) has also been shown to inhibit cancer genes.

http://www.reverseskinaging.com/copper-peptide-inhibits-cancer.html

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Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:20 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ - you talk about a "restorative stage" - but is this in any way dependent on age? How much restoration could really be expected from 60+ age skin which has significantly less collagen and elastin than say 40+?

Also, my personal preference is for watery type serums. I dislike creams because I feel we use enough other "gunk" - such as a primers, sunscreens and foundations.

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Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:15 pm      Reply with quote
Dr. J, where do you get the MSC's? Is this from bone marrow, or another organ? Am I thinking correctly that this is where MSC's come from?
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:40 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Dr. J, where do you get the MSC's? Is this from bone marrow, or another organ? Am I thinking correctly that this is where MSC's come from?


Bone marrow. MSC's also also live in the "perivascular space" (around small arterioles) in many parts of the body,including skin. Think 1 alarm fire (local FD) to 2 alarm fire (local + neighboring cities FD), to 3 alarm fire (all units responding backed up by county & state resources).
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:22 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
It has been my understanding that Retinol should not be used in the day (some even say inside lighting degrades it) and it causes skin to be more sensitive to the sun?


I thought the stink was over retinyl palmitate being used in sunscreens?

Dr. Fernandes (environ) thinks the RP is photoprotective, not photosensitizing (or more correctly photocarcinogenic). I would trust him over the EWG.

http://www.aad.org/stories-and-news/news-releases/analysis-finds-sunscreens-containing-retinyl-palmitate-do-not-cause-skin-cancer


I was only asking because when I was using Green Cream 9, and about to switch to RA there was a discussion that even my light on the bedroom nightstand would degrade the retinoids? That was at least a year ago and I was going from memory, but I recall a study being tossed in, I have not heeded that warning I get my RA on as close to bed as possible but not seconds before turning lights out! Laughing

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Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:29 pm      Reply with quote
Panda1 wrote:
DrJ wrote:
I think it is quite remarkable that nobody asks about stem cytokines, the superstar of the show, and definitely more unique than the supporting characters, who have all been around a while. Is that because you are all thoroughly convinced from our chats in the stem cell/cytokines thread? Or are you just waiting until midnight to come after me with torches and pitchforks?


Even as a current user of a stem cell product, I think the technology is too new. Clinical trials are small. There needs to be some emperical evidence. I might be ok with being a guinea pig, but I can certainly understand others reluctance. How often have we seen new prescription drugs touted as miracles only to end up having serious side effects over time. Vitamin A and C might not be everything, but at least they are time tested.


I agree we are not all in the biological science fields, and stem cell study is one of the newest as it pertains to skin care.
We have to wait and hope for studies to help us make informed decisions.
Time is certainly a factor, none have been in use long term as compared to A,C even E (my addition) as Panda1 pointed out.

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Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:54 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
Panda1 wrote:
DrJ wrote:
I think it is quite remarkable that nobody asks about stem cytokines, the superstar of the show, and definitely more unique than the supporting characters, who have all been around a while. Is that because you are all thoroughly convinced from our chats in the stem cell/cytokines thread? Or are you just waiting until midnight to come after me with torches and pitchforks?


Even as a current user of a stem cell product, I think the technology is too new. Clinical trials are small. There needs to be some emperical evidence. I might be ok with being a guinea pig, but I can certainly understand others reluctance. How often have we seen new prescription drugs touted as miracles only to end up having serious side effects over time. Vitamin A and C might not be everything, but at least they are time tested.


I agree we are not all in the biological science fields, and stem cell study is one of the newest as it pertains to skin care.
We have to wait and hope for studies to help us make informed decisions.
Time is certainly a factor, none have been in use long term as compared to A,C even E (my addition) as Panda1 pointed out.


True, but they have now been around in science for a while (~ decade for would healing studies, some go back 30 years), and they are not man made chemicals - they are natural (the exact same as the ones your own stem cells make). So in that sense they are like the vitamins - we are mimicking nature's way of doing things. Harder to get in trouble that way. We learn more every day. It may be another decade before these things are "mainstream" & being used by billions. Meanwhile we can say we have never seen a single adverse effect. Even the emulsifiers in the final formulations are more likely to cause allergic problems, because they are identical to things your body makes.
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:56 pm      Reply with quote
[img]
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:07 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
[img]


I understand that stem cell research and use in the medical field has been around for decades as you said, how it affects our skin in skin care has not been something we out of that scientific loop have had much information on. Even in use for medical purposes there has been "moral" issues surrounding it all, which at times has overshadowed the science we would like to know.

[img]....click that then paste the url where the image is stored then after click the IMG button again= [/img], sorry if I was not clear enough. Confused

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