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rileygirl
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Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:41 am      Reply with quote
Lotusesther wrote:
Well to be honest I would like to see more toxicology studies on the actives people put on their skin. It's amazing what people can put on their skin if they think it could preserve their youth or reverse ageing.


And this brings us to the question if these "actives" penetrate the skin or not. I know the drug ingredients do, but what about the OTC so-called actives?
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Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:20 am      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:


Aloe Vera: A Short Review (2008)
Includes mechanism of actions for various properties and is full text.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2763764/



And, my one last post on aloe vera (!). Per your study, FF.

Clinical uses: The clinical use of aloe vera is supported mostly by anecdotal data. Though most of these uses are interesting, controlled trials are essential to determine its effectiveness in all the following diseases.

And most interesting to me: Topical: It may cause redness, burning, stinging sensation and rarely generalized dermatitis in sensitive individuals. Allergic reactions are mostly due to anthraquinones, such as aloin and barbaloin. It is best to apply it to a small area first to test for possible allergic reaction.

And: Interactions: Application of aloe to skin may increase the absorption of steroid creams such as hydrocortisone. It reduces the effectiveness and may increases the adverse effects of digoxin and digitoxin, due to its potassium lowering effect. Combined use of Aloe vera and furosemide may increase the risk of potassium depletion. It decreases the blood sugar levels and thus may interact with oral hypoglycemic drugs and insulin.


Thus, though Aloe vera has wide spectrum of the properties and uses, some of them could be myths and some of them could be real magic. In future, controlled studies are required to prove the effectiveness of Aloe vera under various conditions.


(All of this said, I have ordered aloe vera to test this ingredient out for myself.)
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Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:27 am      Reply with quote
There are a number of published science reports on aloe vera. None are all that compelling, I agree, but it is more than mere myth. I would just call it at this point weak as an active, but then most botanical extracts are a little wimpy.

Hyaluronic acid is interesting. It is a good moisturizer, but if you re looking for true barrier it is not the pinnacle. There is some recent evidence that if you use the low molecular weight (50kDa) it helps with wrinkles (mild effect). Again, probably not going to be elected the star of the category.

Can you over moisturize? Yeah, depending on skin type, consistency of use, etc. Skin can become somewhat moisture "dependent" with regular use -- is that a bad thing? Annoying when you stop I suppose. I see the opposite more often - under-moisturization. So no hard and fast rules on this one.
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Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:52 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:

And, my one last post on aloe vera (!). Per your study, FF.

Clinical uses: The clinical use of aloe vera is supported mostly by anecdotal data. Though most of these uses are interesting, controlled trials are essential to determine its effectiveness in all the following diseases.

And most interesting to me: Topical: It may cause redness, burning, stinging sensation and rarely generalized dermatitis in sensitive individuals. Allergic reactions are mostly due to anthraquinones, such as aloin and barbaloin. It is best to apply it to a small area first to test for possible allergic reaction.

And: Interactions: Application of aloe to skin may increase the absorption of steroid creams such as hydrocortisone. It reduces the effectiveness and may increases the adverse effects of digoxin and digitoxin, due to its potassium lowering effect. Combined use of Aloe vera and furosemide may increase the risk of potassium depletion. It decreases the blood sugar levels and thus may interact with oral hypoglycemic drugs and insulin.


Thus, though Aloe vera has wide spectrum of the properties and uses, some of them could be myths and some of them could be real magic. In future, controlled studies are required to prove the effectiveness of Aloe vera under various conditions.


(All of this said, I have ordered aloe vera to test this ingredient out for myself.)


Delighted people are reading and critiquing. Very Happy For me the most compelling thing is the number of positive studies, not just those that relate directly to skincare. We didn't really cover reduced inflammation, but that is of interest to me being prone to dermatitis. Providing one is not allergic, IMO it makes sense to use AV as the base ingredient in a serum or cream, a plodding workhorse rather than a 'one trick pony'.

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Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:48 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
I would just call it at this point weak as an active, but then most botanical extracts are a little wimpy.

Hyaluronic acid is interesting. It is a good moisturizer, but if you re looking for true barrier it is not the pinnacle. There is some recent evidence that if you use the low molecular weight (50kDa) it helps with wrinkles (mild effect). Again, probably not going to be elected the star of the category.

Can you over moisturize? Yeah, depending on skin type, consistency of use, etc. Skin can become somewhat moisture "dependent" with regular use -- is that a bad thing? Annoying when you stop I suppose. I see the opposite more often - under-moisturization. So no hard and fast rules on this one.


I agree with you, wimpy on aloe vera, and not the pinnacle on HA.

Very interesting that you see under-moisturization more often. I never wore a moisturizer, but then I got hit with the hormonal changes, now my skin has totally changed and it is much more dry. Good time for me to try the aloe vera for moisturization!

Tell us about cytokines. I will say I have no knowledge in this area, and I will need to read about these.
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Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:28 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:


Tell us about cytokines. I will say I have no knowledge in this area, and I will need to read about these.


Of course I would love to talk about cytokines (my work). Rileygirl could you post a link for other readers to the BFT series on stem cells (I can't) - especially the last of the series of three articles.

Cytokines are at the heart of the trends you see for products that lay claim to buzz words like stem cells (the ones that real, anyway, not the pretend ones that may be in the majority) as well as growth factors (which are a family of cytokines. Cytokines are the body's chemical communication system. They are smallish chemicals, proteins, smallish (peptides), made inside cells of all types. There are hundreds of them. Everything that is important in a tissue (like skin) is mediated by cytokines.

We can start with a paper (only for the very nerdy) that is about cytokines in wound healing. I know rileygirl will correctly point out that wounds are not wrinkles -- I fall back on previous comments in response.

Here is the paper: http://physrev.physiology.org/content/83/3/835.full.pdf
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Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:21 pm      Reply with quote
Link to the cytokines article.

http://barefacedtruth.com/2011/12/14/stem-cells-and-skin-part-2-its-the-cytokines/

For the other 2 previous ones in the series, go to the top of the website page and click on stem cells and skin.

And this is what Dr. J is referring to on falling back to what he previously said on wrinkles/wounds.
DrJ wrote:

So, bottom line is no, not exactly the same, but similar enough that the overlap can inform us.
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Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:51 pm      Reply with quote
Dr. J, you posted this response to a reader of your BFT website:

"As doctors, we are trained to ask a lot of questions, do an examination, and make a diagnosis before prescribing treatment. Everybody’s skin is different. So what we want to do here is educate folks about what works and why, so that you can rationally decide what you might like to try yourself. As you have probably gleaned, we view the industry as peddling a lot of pseudoscience in order to make a buck, so we want to sort that out. In the very near future we are going to create a score card for ingredients so you can see them rated on the basis of three things: do they make sense scientifically, is there good evidence that they work, and how do they work (and combine with other ingredients). We are also coming up with a classification system. We can then begin to look at products through this lens (ingredients science) as well as other stuff that users want to know. I can tell you in brief some ingredients that will score relatively highly. The include retinoids (no surprise), Vitamin C, Vitamin E, isoflavones (esp soy), niacinamide, various botanical antioxidants (e.g. teas of all colors, maté, coffeeberry many others), silymarin, certain ceramides, certain peptides (e.g. matrixyl, cu-peptides), and others. We will also take you into the world of cell biology to talk about stem cell derived ingredients (cytokines), DNA repair technologies, collagen glycation disruptors, growth factors (good and bad), mitochondrial respiration enhancers, cell repair enzymes, and other leading edge stuff. We will also give you guidelines about who we think is trustworthy, and who we think are notoriously unworthy of trust, based on what they have done in the marketplace. That discussion could eliminate a lot of products from consideration. Be patient– it takes time for us to compose all these resources. We also encourage you to look at other forums (e.g. skincaretalk.com, essentialdayspa.com) where you will find passionate folks with similar concerns."

Can you expound a little on this statement "Vitamin E, isoflavones (esp soy), niacinamide, various botanical antioxidants (e.g. teas of all colors, maté, coffeeberry many others), silymarin, certain ceramides, certain peptides (e.g. matrixyl, cu-peptides),"

What are the benefits of each of those ingredients and in particular which ceramides are best and whats up with soy?

TIA
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:54 am      Reply with quote
My choice is Niacinamide and Glucosamine.

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Firefox7275
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:44 am      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Dr. J, you posted this response to a reader of your BFT website:

<snip>

Can you expound a little on this statement "Vitamin E, isoflavones (esp soy), niacinamide, various botanical antioxidants (e.g. teas of all colors, maté, coffeeberry many others), silymarin, certain ceramides, certain peptides (e.g. matrixyl, cu-peptides),"

What are the benefits of each of those ingredients and in particular which ceramides are best and whats up with soy?

TIA


Not meaning to be rude, but that is a massive undertaking and a tad unfair to plonk into one person's lap. We are not learning anything if we are spoonfed information by DrJ any more than we are if we are spoonfed by cosmetics companies. As DrJ said in the OP "Let's together construct a list, then rate the evidence for each (claims, how does it work, does that make sense, etc). Once we sift through, it will be a resource for others who come here for information. So if you want to add something to the discussion, name that ingredient, some reference to what it claims to do (or even just a link), whether you have tried it & results, and any other pertinent information you may have."

Why not trawl PubMed and Google Scholar and find some evidence, then post it here for us all to read and critique? Also to give you a helping hand, check DragoN's recipes and posts over on Skincaretalk, she often posts links to studies backing up why she recommends or uses a particular active.

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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim.
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:48 am      Reply with quote
What is your suggestion based on please Keliu?

Keliu wrote:
My choice is Niacinamide and Glucosamine.

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Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:13 am      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Dr. J, you posted this response to a reader of your BFT website:

Can you expound a little on this statement "Vitamin E, isoflavones (esp soy), niacinamide, various botanical antioxidants (e.g. teas of all colors, maté, coffeeberry many others), silymarin, certain ceramides, certain peptides (e.g. matrixyl, cu-peptides),"

What are the benefits of each of those ingredients and in particular which ceramides are best and whats up with soy?

TIA


That is indeed a big bite, and we need to take it one at a time. And thanks Firefox, yes it is a cooperative group effort, and we can all learn from each other.

Since soy was the last thing mentioned, I will make that my focus today.

We can talk about soy proteases later. For now, it is the isoflavones we are interested in. Isoflavones are present in a panoply of botanicals, but soy is the best studied source.

Let's start with how it works. Understanding the underlying mechanisms are the foundation for all skin science.

1. Antioxidant effects

• By raising cellular GSH content (p<0.05) and GST activity (p<0.05), decreasing H2O2 formation (p<0.05), and preventing DNA degradation (p<0.01)

2. Phytoestrogen effect

• Couples with estrogen receptors in the cell’s nucleus. Therefore may have a similar potential to retard skin thinning and collagen loss comparable to topical estrogen formulas.

3. Increases collagen synthesis

• One study demonstrated in vitro that genistein was able to increase collagen (COL1A2) gene expression in human fibroblasts.
• One study showed genistein was able to stimulate collagen levels in human dermal fibroblasts.

4. Increases glycosaminoglycans (GAG)
• Increases levels of GAG, specifically hyaluronic acid, in aging skin.

I'll post some references for each one shortly.
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:53 am      Reply with quote
Forgot to mention one more effect. Protection against photoaging, photocarcinogenesis and cancer suppressing effects in general. Lots of new literature on that.
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:22 am      Reply with quote
THE SCIENCE SUPPORTING SOY ISOFLAVONES

Research suggests that estrogen deficiencies following menopause may contribute to signs of aging in skin. Systemic and topical estrogens have been shown to counter these effects and to have antioxidant properties. Although much weaker, soy isoflavones (phytoestrogens) have been shown to mimic estrogen and to have antioxidant effects, making them ideal for use on maturing skin.

AGING SKIN AND HORMONAL FLUCTUATIONS

As humans age, the skin becomes dry, loses its elasticity, and begins to wrinkle — these are the primary visible effects of chronological aging. Following menopause 1-3 it has been shown that skin thickness decreases and collagen levels in the skin diminish, which may further contribute to these negative age-related changes in the skin. Scientific studies strongly suggest that these changes may be attributed to menopausal and/or age-related hormonal fluctuations. More specifically, research suggests that estrogen deficiency may
primarily be responsible.

ESTROGEN: A CRUCIAL PART OF THE AGING EQUATION

Estrogen works by joining with estrogen receptors in the body and signaling genes in cells to be switched on or off. Flipping these switches can cause the body to generate new cells or to produce special substances. For example, raised estrogen levels can cause breast growth during pregnancy, as well as the production of milk following pregnancy. Following menopause, the body stops producing much estrogen. Although the exact mechanisms are unknown, this reduction in estrogen is believed to contribute to decreases in skin thickness, dryness, and loss of elasticity.

Estrogen receptors have been detected in the skin, and systemic 2,4 and topical 5,6 estrogen have now been shown to increase skin thickness, increase collagen levels, and improve wrinkling and dryness.7,8 While estrogen is important, researchers also believe that decreased estrogen levels are only part of the aging equation; free radical attack caused by exposure to environmental elements like sunlight, smoke, and pollution also contributes to premature aging in skin. Antioxidants can help counter these effects by neutralizing free radicals, and estrogens are strong antioxidants with even stronger activity than vitamin E and vita min C. 9-11

SOY ISOFLAVONES: AN ALTERNATIVE TO ESTROGEN

Soy isoflavones are phytoestrogens, substances that mimic the activity of estrogen. The estrogenic effect of phytoestrogens is considerably weaker than estrogens, but is appreciable 12 and both oral and topical application of phytoestrogens have
been shown to have many beneficial effects for the skin. In addition to estrogenic activity, soy isoflavones have antioxidant properties,13,14 and like other antioxidants, help to prevent free-radical damage to DNA.

Soy-containing foods may contain as much as 1/1000 of their content as phytoestrogens and are credited with the\ low incidence of cardiovascular disease15-17 and breast cancer18 in Asian populations that consume large amounts of these substances.19,20 Phytoestrogens have also been effective for preventing skin cancer in mice, both orally21 and topically.22

GENISTEIN: BENEFITING SKIN

Genistein is the most abundant isoflavone in soy, and there is a strong body of research supporting the benefits genistein provides the skin. Genistein is a strong antioxidant 23,24 and may be effective in preventing cancer. Although its exact anticancer mechanism is unknown, genistein has been proven to protect against sunburn in humans 25 and to block the formation of reactive oxygen species. The antioxidant effect of phytoestrogens is also synergistically enhanced in the presence of vitamin C. 26 This makes soy isoflavones an ideal alternative to estrogen therapies, and perfect for use on maturing skin.

SUMMARY

Soy isoflavones or phytoestrogens mimic estrogen behavior and may have beneficial effects in maturing skin. Estrogen deficiencies in post-menopausal women may contribute to decrease of skin thickness, dryness, and loss of elasticity and it is believed that topical application of soy isoflavones may help counter some of these negative age-related changes.


REFERENCES

1. Brincat M, Moniz CJ, Studd JW, Darby A, Magos A, Emburey G,
Versi E. Long-term effects of the menopause and sex hormones on
skin thickness. British Journal of Obstetrics & Gynaecology 1985;
92:256-259.
2. Castelo-Branco C, Duran M, Gonzalez-Merlo J. Skin collagen
changes related to age and hormone replacement therapy. Maturitas
1992; 15:113-119.
3. Affinito P, Palomba S, Sorrentino C, Di Carlo C, Bifulco G, Arienzo
MP , Nappi C. Effects of postmenopausal hypoestrogenism on skin
collagen. Maturitas 1999; 33:239-247.
4. Maheux R, Naud F, Rioux M, Grenier R, Lemay A, Guy J, Langevin
M. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study on the
effect of conjugated estrogens on skin thickness. American Journal
of Obstetrics & Gynecology 1994; 170:642-649.
5. Brincat M, Versi E, O’Dowd T, Moniz CF, Magos A, Kabalan S,
Studd JW. Skin collagen changes in post-menopausal women receiving
oestradiol gel. Maturitas 1987; 9:1-5.
6. Varila E, Rantala I, Oikarinen A, Risteli J, Reunala T, Oksanen H,
Punnonen R. The effect of topical oestradiol on skin collagen of
postmenopausal women. British Journal of Obstetrics &
Gynaecology 1995; 102:985-989.
7. Dunn LB, Damesyn M, Moore AA, Reuben DB, Greendale GA.
Does estrogen prevent skin aging? Results from the First National
Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES I)
[see comments]. Archives of Dermatology 1997; 133:339-342.
8. Schmidt JB, Binder M, Demschik G, Bieglmayer C, Reiner A.
Treatment of skin aging with topical estrogens. International Journal
of Dermatology 1996; 35:669-674.
9. Ruiz-Larrea MB, Martin C, Martinez R, Navarro R, Lacort M, Miller
NJ. Antioxidant activities of estrogens against aqueous and
lipophilic radicals; differences between phenol and catechol estrogens.
Chemistry & Physics of Lipids 2000; 105 :179-188.
10. Ayres S, Tang M, Subbiah MT. Estradiol-17beta as an antioxidant:
some distinct features when compared with common fat-soluble
antioxidants [see comments]. Journal of Laboratory & Clinical
Medicine 1996; 128:367-375.
11. Moosmann B, Behl C. The antioxidant neuroprotective effects of
estrogens and phenolic compounds are independent from their estrogenic
properties. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the
United States of America 1999; 96:8867-8872.
12. Zava DT, Duwe G. Estrogenic and antiproliferative properties of
genistein and other flavonoids in human breast cancer cells in vitro.
Nutrition & Cancer 1997; 27:31-40.
13. Ruiz-Larrea MB, Mohan AR, Paganga G, Miller NJ, Bolwell GP,
Rice-Evans CA. Antioxidant activity of phytoestrogenic isoflavones.
Free Radical Research 1997; 26:63-70.
14. Wiseman H, O’Reilly JD, Adlercreutz H, Mallet AI, Bowey EA,
Rowland IR, Sanders TA. Isoflavone phytoestrogens consumed in soy
decrease F(2)-isoprostane concentrations and increase resistance of
low-density lipoprotein to oxidation in humans. American Journal of
Clinical Nutrition 2000; 72:395-400.
15. Lichtenstein AH. Soy protein, isoflavones and cardiovascular disease
risk. [Review] [56 refs]. J Nutr 1998; 128:1589-1592.
16. Cassidy A, Griffin B. Phyto-oestrogens: a potential role in the
prevention of CHD?. [Review] [69 refs]. Proceedings of the Nutrition
Society 1999; 58:193-199.
17. Lissin LW, Cooke JP. Phytoestrogens and cardiovascular health.
[Review] [90 refs]. Journal of the American College of Cardiology
2000; 35:1403-1410.
18. Ingram D, Sanders K, Kolybaba M, Lopez D . Case-control study of
phyto-oestrogens and breast cancer [see comments]. Lancet 1997;
350:990-994.
19. Wiseman H. Role of dietary phyto-oestrogens in the protection
against cancer and heart disease. [Review] [47 refs]. Biochemical
Society Transactions 1996; 24:795-800.
20. Bingham SA, Atkinson C, Liggins J, Bluck L, Coward A. Phytooestrogens:
where are we now?. [Review] [138 refs]. British Journal
of Nutrition 1998; 79:393-406.
21. Limtrakul P, Suttajit M, Semura R, Shimada K, Yamamoto S.
Suppressive effect of soybean milk protein on experimentally induced
skin tumor in mice. Life Sciences 1993; 53:1591-1596.
22. Wei H, Bowen R, Zhang X, Lebwohl M. Isoflavone genistein inhibits
the initiation and promotion of two-stage skin carcinogenesis in mice.
Carcinogenesis 1998; 19:1509-1514.
23. Cai Q, Wei H. Effect of dietary genistein on antioxidant enzyme
activities in SENCAR mice. Nutrition & Cancer 1996; 25:1-7.
24. Wei H, Cai Q, Rahn RO. Inhibition of UV light- and Fenton reactioninduced
oxidative DNA damage by the soybean isoflavone genistein.
Carcinogenesis 1996; 17:73-77.
25. Wei H. American Academy of Dermatology 1998 Awards for Young
Investigators in Dermatology. Photoprotective action of isoflavone
genistein: models, mechanisms, and relevance to clinical dermatology.
Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology 1998; 39:t-2.
26. Hwang J, Sevanian A, Hodis HN, Ursini F. Synergistic inhibition of
LDL oxidation by phytoestrogens and ascorbic acid. Free Radical
Biology & Medicine 2000; 29:79-89.
Lotusesther
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:32 am      Reply with quote
Soy never did anything for me, but maybe that's because I also have difficulties digesting it.
There are plenty of other good sources of isoflavones, unfortunately the cosmetics industry uses almost only soy. Probably because it's cheap.

I would like to suggest (something completely different) vitamin A in its various forms. Retinyl palmitate, retinyl acetate, retinol as OTC ingredients.
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:49 am      Reply with quote
Lotusesther wrote:

I would like to suggest (something completely different) vitamin A in its various forms. Retinyl palmitate, retinyl acetate, retinol as OTC ingredients.


What is your suggestion based on please Lotusesther?

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Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:03 am      Reply with quote
Lotusesther wrote:

I would like to suggest (something completely different) vitamin A in its various forms. Retinyl palmitate, retinyl acetate, retinol as OTC ingredients.


I put Vitamin A near the top of the list, but that is a large topic for another day. Remember we are talking about topical isoflavones. I do however, think this is one area where there is a complimentary possibility. (between isoflavones and retinoids).
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:41 pm      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
jom wrote:
Dr. J, you posted this response to a reader of your BFT website:

<snip>

Can you expound a little on this statement "Vitamin E, isoflavones (esp soy), niacinamide, various botanical antioxidants (e.g. teas of all colors, maté, coffeeberry many others), silymarin, certain ceramides, certain peptides (e.g. matrixyl, cu-peptides),"

What are the benefits of each of those ingredients and in particular which ceramides are best and whats up with soy?

TIA


Not meaning to be rude, but that is a massive undertaking and a tad unfair to plonk into one person's lap. We are not learning anything if we are spoonfed information by DrJ any more than we are if we are spoonfed by cosmetics companies. As DrJ said in the OP "Let's together construct a list, then rate the evidence for each (claims, how does it work, does that make sense, etc). Once we sift through, it will be a resource for others who come here for information. So if you want to add something to the discussion, name that ingredient, some reference to what it claims to do (or even just a link), whether you have tried it & results, and any other pertinent information you may have."

Why not trawl PubMed and Google Scholar and find some evidence, then post it here for us all to read and critique? Also to give you a helping hand, check DragoN's recipes and posts over on Skincaretalk, she often posts links to studies backing up why she recommends or uses a particular active.


I was merely asking Dr. J's opinion based on his knowledge and the research he has done. I don't feel the need to do extensive research myself I was just asking for his expert opinion.
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:45 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Forgot to mention one more effect. Protection against photoaging, photocarcinogenesis and cancer suppressing effects in general. Lots of new literature on that.


Would you say that when it comes to soy (and other antioxidants really) you may not be able to see results or see the way it is helping your skin (for eg. the way you can see improvement in wrinkles from Vitamin A) but it is sort of behind the scenes benefiting your skin?
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:00 pm      Reply with quote
The beneficial effects of estrogen (estriol, estradiol) on skin are well known. What I do not know though, and I wonder if there are any true facts about that to be found, is HOW MUCH isoflavones are necessary to mimic even a slight estrogen effect in the skin.
Dadzein and genistein have been researched as medication to alleviate hot flashes and other signs of hormone trouble. So far I have not seen anything really impressive. I would be, to be honest, much more interested in skin care containing estriol in well researched guaranteed doses.
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:29 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:

I was merely asking Dr. J's opinion based on his knowledge and the research he has done. I don't feel the need to do extensive research myself I was just asking for his expert opinion.


You asked for the benefits of a lengthy list of actives, that is a huge undertaking not just a couple of lines. The whole point of this thread was for us to do the research, I don't understand why you would not wish to contribute to the project?? Sorry to be so blunt but I am frustrated and disappointed that so few EDSers have done what DrJ asked in the OP which is supply evidence for discussion. I was really excited to learn something from you all but instead this has been hijacked into an ask DrJ thread. Sad

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Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:58 pm      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
What is your suggestion based on please Keliu?

Keliu wrote:
My choice is Niacinamide and Glucosamine.


http://www.bulkactives.com/niacinamide.htm

http://www.bulkactives.com/abstracts/niacinamide.htm

Honestly Firefox, I feel as if we're all in trouble for not doing our homework - lighten up a bit!

There are also numerous threads discussing Niacinamide on EDS - plus some DIY recipes.

Also, given that it is known that DrJ is working on developing a rejuvenating skin serum - I don't think it's inappropriate to ask him what he himself thinks is effective.

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Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:42 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:

http://www.bulkactives.com/niacinamide.htm

http://www.bulkactives.com/abstracts/niacinamide.htm

Honestly Firefox, I feel as if we're all in trouble for not doing our homework - lighten up a bit!

There are also numerous threads discussing Niacinamide on EDS - plus some DIY recipes.

Also, given that it is known that DrJ is working on developing a rejuvenating skin serum - I don't think it's inappropriate to ask him what he himself thinks is effective.


Why are you trying to make me feel bad about wanting to keep one single solitary thread on topic? For obvious reasons, there are numerous threads on EDS discussing what people like and use, what they think is effective and DIY. Very few threads are given over to discussing the underlying research which, as you are aware, is something I am interested in. Why read the OP, see the thread is actively being used for its original purpose but completely ignore that? Would you prefer if every time you posted something about an active I am interested in I asked you to supply a reference?

What DrJ thinks is effective has been quoted by Jom. It makes sense to me to use this thread to ask about cytokines, because that is truly getting it 'from the horse's mouth' - from the person conducting the research. Everything else is derailing the thread because we could (and should if you read the OP) be researching it ourselves. Why not start another thread if you want to chit chat with DrJ without contributing, instead of helping hijack this one?

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Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:10 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Here is the paper: http://physrev.physiology.org/content/83/3/835.full.pdf


Ok, so after reading that paper, I feel I have an extremely basic understanding of cytokines now. Basically (very) they are cell signalers. What do you feel that cytokines will do for aging skin? And, would it matter if the aging was intrinsic or extrinsic?
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Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:04 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Forgot to mention one more effect. Protection against photoaging, photocarcinogenesis and cancer suppressing effects in general. Lots of new literature on that.


Would you say that when it comes to soy (and other antioxidants really) you may not be able to see results or see the way it is helping your skin (for eg. the way you can see improvement in wrinkles from Vitamin A) but it is sort of behind the scenes benefiting your skin?


It's affecting deeper layers. By stimulating the estrogenic receptors, it is increasing the thickness of skin. Not just HA, but likely also fat pads. Thin skin is a major contributr to the appearance of aging, especially in women, especially post menopause.
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