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DarkMoon
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:04 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Thanks, DM! I will try to look at the studies over the weekend.


You are welcome Riley, I know busy at the end of school for you! Very Happy

We need a graduation party in the lounge once you are done! Laughing

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Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:09 am      Reply with quote
DM: Thanks a lot for the links. Btw, it looks like the last one posted is the pre-publication extract of the first link you've posted (which actually is the full text version reproduced at a different site)...so no need to pay for it Wink

^^ sorry that sounds confusing - I still can't post links so couldn't quote your post to make it clearer Embarassed
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Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:12 am      Reply with quote
felixia wrote:
DM: Thanks a lot for the links. Btw, it looks like the last one posted is the pre-publication extract of the first link you've posted (which actually is the full text version reproduced at a different site)...so no need to pay for it Wink

^^ sorry that sounds confusing - I still can't post links so couldn't quote your post to make it clearer Embarassed


Thanks felixia,

I did a very quick search and barely skimmed the articles myself yet! That is great to know! Very Happy

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Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:50 am      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Back to "the list"

Do we need to spend more time with aloe vera?
Can we add it to the list as an active?
Can we agree on moisturization, antioxidant, and collagen stimulation properties?

Want to suggest more actives?


Before agreeing to aloe vera on the list, can we discuss this research?

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/?objectid=84BA2E41-F1F6-975E-74710B3802656C9C

This one may be more appropriate because:

- it discusses topical application on healthy skin;
- it includes exposure to sunshine;
- it is conducted by the (US) National Toxicology Program;
- it appears to report gender differences;
- it proves some balance to the positive conclusions of other studies cited thus far.


How about a bit of anecdotal evidence that what most of us have no issues with (like any ingredient) some can have severe reactions:

ALOE VERA ALLERGY - a word of caution (14 Posts)

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/allergies/439277-aloe-vera-allergy-a-word-of-caution/AllOnOnePage

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:45 am      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
Studies should precede product development, not support your inventory.

Agreed. Unfortunately as we are very much aware, this is not the case in the cosmeceutical realm. The endless plethora of wonderbunk and junk actives is a travesty. Caveat emptor.

Factoids, parading as fact. Strangely enough it is considered professionalism to do so.

Lacy53, what products or actives have you found to be particularly helpful?

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:49 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
How about Vitamin D as an active. No one talks about it, and it is out in a few products now.
I don't have any studies on this active, but would like to hear anyone's thoughts (Dr. J, what do you think?).


Can't speak for Dr. J but maybe these will be of interest. i will check for more but a quick search brought these up.

http://www.mmpinc.com/upload/pj/MetabolismOfVitaminD,%20C&T%20article.pdf

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070208230136.htm

ETA: Partial as you must buy the full article:

http://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/formulating/category/skincare/62661622.html



Dr. J as I said I can't speak for you and yes I posted studies however can we still get your input on Vitamin D as an active as Riley asked? I am interested also so it would be appreciated.

Thanks

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:55 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
How about Vitamin D as an active. No one talks about it, and it is out in a few products now.
I don't have any studies on this active, but would like to hear anyone's thoughts (Dr. J, what do you think?).


Can't speak for Dr. J but maybe these will be of interest. i will check for more but a quick search brought these up.

http://www.mmpinc.com/upload/pj/MetabolismOfVitaminD,%20C&T%20article.pdf

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070208230136.htm

ETA: Partial as you must buy the full article:

http://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/formulating/category/skincare/62661622.html



Dr. J as I said I can't speak for you and yes I posted studies however can we still get your input on Vitamin D as an active as Riley asked? I am interested also so it would be appreciated.

Thanks



We have long known that Vit.D is both a vitamin and a hormone, and that UV light stimulates Vit.D phosphorylation, making it active. But Vit.D may also act locally in tissues, skin in particular, as a cytokine (signaling molecule) when DNA damage has occurred, creating a protective, anti-aging role. Vit D exhibits immunomodulatory, anti-proliferative and cancer preventive activities on cells. Vitamin D(3)-induced autophagy contributes to anti-aging, antimicrobial defense, and tumor suppression. Vit D has been tested in PLE (polymorphic light eruption) and lichen spinulosis with good results. Calcipotriol is a Vit.D derivative that is now a first line agent in treating psoriasis.

Here is my thought. Have we yet discovered a vitamin that is NOT good for skin? Think about it, Vit A, D, E, K, and most of the B’s have well proven direct or indirect benefits.
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:10 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:

How about a bit of anecdotal evidence that what most of us have no issues with (like any ingredient) some can have severe reactions:

ALOE VERA ALLERGY - a word of caution (14 Posts)

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/allergies/439277-aloe-vera-allergy-a-word-of-caution/AllOnOnePage


Thank you for posting this, I was aware of the potential for allergic CD but not how rare it is until I checked the literature. Cool Your link begins with someone using fresh aloe which is not recommended, and continues with two adverse reactions to oral administration.

Case studies on CD from fresh aloe
http://repositorio.chporto.pt/bitstream/10400.16/821/1/Allergic%20contact%20dermatitis%20to%20Aloe%20vera.pdf
http://www.desertharvest.com/physicians/documents/HB-16.pdf
Case study I don't have access to
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1081120610008665
Hypersensitivity from consistent oral and topical use
http://archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/116/9/1064

From 2005, edited for brevity
"Aloe vera has been used as a cosmetic and medical remedy since ancient times and has gained increasing popularity in recent years. Despite its widespread use, reports of allergic reactions are rare. We patch tested 702 consecutive patients with an oily extract from the leaves, Aloe pulvis from the entire plant and concentrated Aloe vera gel ... None of the subjects showed any reaction to one of the preparations. 2 components of the plant have to be distinguished: the bark of the leaves contains anthrachinones with pro-peristaltic and potential antibiotic and anticancer properties. Constraints have been imposed due to their considerable toxic potential. Today, mostly the Aloe gel from the center of the leaves is processed. It almost exclusively consists of carbohydrates to which also many medical effects have been attributed. Carbohydrates are not likely to induce contact sensitization, which might explain the outcome of our study. "
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0105-1873.2005.00713.x/abstract

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:17 am      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:

How about a bit of anecdotal evidence that what most of us have no issues with (like any ingredient) some can have severe reactions:

ALOE VERA ALLERGY - a word of caution (14 Posts)

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/allergies/439277-aloe-vera-allergy-a-word-of-caution/AllOnOnePage


Thank you for posting this, I was aware of the potential for allergic CD but not how rare it is until I checked the literature. Cool Your link begins with someone using fresh aloe which is not recommended, and continues with two adverse reactions to oral administration.

Case studies on CD from fresh aloe
http://repositorio.chporto.pt/bitstream/10400.16/821/1/Allergic%20contact%20dermatitis%20to%20Aloe%20vera.pdf
http://www.desertharvest.com/physicians/documents/HB-16.pdf
Case study I don't have access to
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1081120610008665
Hypersensitivity from consistent oral and topical use
http://archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/116/9/1064

From 2005, edited for brevity
"Aloe vera has been used as a cosmetic and medical remedy since ancient times and has gained increasing popularity in recent years. Despite its widespread use, reports of allergic reactions are rare. We patch tested 702 consecutive patients with an oily extract from the leaves, Aloe pulvis from the entire plant and concentrated Aloe vera gel ... None of the subjects showed any reaction to one of the preparations. 2 components of the plant have to be distinguished: the bark of the leaves contains anthrachinones with pro-peristaltic and potential antibiotic and anticancer properties. Constraints have been imposed due to their considerable toxic potential. Today, mostly the Aloe gel from the center of the leaves is processed. It almost exclusively consists of carbohydrates to which also many medical effects have been attributed. Carbohydrates are not likely to induce contact sensitization, which might explain the outcome of our study. "
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0105-1873.2005.00713.x/abstract


People can have reactions to ANYTHING, so regardless of how organic or "natural" if it has never been used by an individual then IMO do a simple patch test and avoid any possible reaction.

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:26 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
People can have reactions to ANYTHING, so regardless of how organic or "natural" if it has never been used by an individual then IMO do a simple patch test and avoid any possible reaction.


I've just backed up your anecdotes with actual science, sweetie. Wink

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:34 am      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
People can have reactions to ANYTHING, so regardless of how organic or "natural" if it has never been used by an individual then IMO do a simple patch test and avoid any possible reaction.


I've just backed up your anecdotes with actual science, sweetie. Wink


Here is an anecdotal example for you:

My good friends daughter is allergic to both Benadryl and Epinephrine. What do they normally give to a patient who is having a severe reaction? You guessed it those exact meds. that she is allergic to.

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:40 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:

My good friends daughter is allergic to both Benadryl and Epinephrine. What do they normally give to a patient who is having a severe reaction? You guessed it those exact meds. that she is allergic to.


You've lost me (I am chronically sleep deprived Embarassed). What have allergies to pharmaceuticals got to do with topical actives? Do you want me to research that for you too? You supplied unverifiable anecdotal evidence and four case studies in the literature support that, did you read the links?

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:47 am      Reply with quote
Aloe vera (aloe) is a type of plant that has been utilized in the treatment of skin-related infections, rashes and burns. Dried aloe vera has also been used as an oral laxative to treat constipation and other gastrointestinal problems. According to MedlinePlus, individuals who are allergic to members of the Liliaceae family, such as garlic, onions or tulips, may develop allergic reactions to aloe.

SKIN SYMPTOMS
If you are allergic to aloe, you may develop skin-related symptoms following the application of aloe vera gel to the skin. MedlinePlus states that allergic individuals who use topical aloe vera treatment may develop red, irritated or inflamed skin at the site of use. If applied prior to sun exposure, allergic individuals may develop a rash in areas that are exposed to the sun. Burning or stinging may also occur in certain people who are allergic to aloe following topical application of aloe-containing products. Allergic individuals may develop skin conditions, such as hives or eczema, after using topical aloe.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/72635-aloe-allergy-symptoms/

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:38 pm      Reply with quote
Still lost ... are you agreeing with or challenging the literature DarkMoon? Confused

The LiveStrong article is based on other articles which in turn reference published studies or other articles, did you read the primary sources (refs lists below)?
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aloe-vera/NS_patient-aloe/DSECTION=selected-references
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/aloevera
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/607.html

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:12 pm      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
Still lost ... are you agreeing with or challenging the literature DarkMoon? Confused

The LiveStrong article is based on other articles which in turn reference published studies or other articles, did you read the primary sources (refs lists below)?
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aloe-vera/NS_patient-aloe/DSECTION=selected-references
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/aloevera
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/607.html


Side Effects and Warnings

The use of aloe on surgical wounds has been reported to slow healing; redness and burning has been reported after aloe juice was applied to the face after a skin-peeling procedure (dermabrasion). Application of aloe prior to sun exposure may lead to rash in sun-exposed areas.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aloe-vera/NS_patient-aloe/DSECTION=safety

Who should not use aloe vera topical ()?

Before using aloe vera topical, talk to your doctor, pharmacist, or health care professional if you have any other medical conditions, allergies, or if you use other medicines or other herbal/health supplements. Aloe vera topical may not be recommended in some situations.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/search/search/SEARCHTYPE=web&KEYWORDS=Aloe%20topical%20allergy

You just do not get it, I love Aloe and use Aloe, however I stand by what I said anything can cause an allergic reaction topically in sensitive individuals including Aloe.

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:17 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
You just do not get it, I love Aloe and use Aloe, however I stand by what I said anything can cause an allergic reaction topically in sensitive individuals including Aloe.


I think there may be a little disconnect here....the info Firefox provided AGREED with your viewpoint on some people having reactions to Aloe.

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:29 pm      Reply with quote
Sorry to get off topic, but I'm allergic to bee propolis (beeswax). After destroying my skin a few times with Burts Bees, Egyptian Magic, and other products, I did some research.. its really quite common. I thought no, how could I be allergic to something that's in everything?? Keep in mind I'm NOT allergic to honey and ingested bee products.

Big thanks to Dark Moon and Firefox for raising awareness on this thread, sometimes we all need a reminder.

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:56 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:

You just do not get it, I love Aloe and use Aloe, however I stand by what I said anything can cause an allergic reaction topically in sensitive individuals including Aloe.


If you took the time to read the links I supplied earlier (see below), my position would be clear.
http://repositorio.chporto.pt/bitstream/10400.16/821/1/Allergic%20contact%20dermatitis%20to%20Aloe%20vera.pdf
http://www.desertharvest.com/physicians/documents/HB-16.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1081120610008665
http://archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/116/9/1064

Emboldening altered for emphasis. Note that only one preparation (later comments indicate the AV gel) of the three elicited no reaction in any of the 702 participants - ergo the other two did elicit a response in one or more patients. Dovetails with both your anecdotes and the four published case reports.

"Aloe vera has been used as a cosmetic and medical remedy since ancient times and has gained increasing popularity in recent years. Despite its widespread use, reports of allergic reactions are rare. We patch tested 702 consecutive patients with an oily extract from the leaves, Aloe pulvis from the entire plant and concentrated Aloe vera gel ... None of the subjects showed any reaction to one of the preparations. 2 components of the plant have to be distinguished: the bark of the leaves contains anthrachinones with pro-peristaltic and potential antibiotic and anticancer properties. Constraints have been imposed due to their considerable toxic potential. Today, mostly the Aloe gel from the center of the leaves is processed. It almost exclusively consists of carbohydrates to which also many medical effects have been attributed. Carbohydrates are not likely to induce contact sensitization, which might explain the outcome of our study."
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0105-1873.2005.00713.x/abstract

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:16 pm      Reply with quote
Ava with wings wrote:
Sorry to get off topic, but I'm allergic to bee propolis (beeswax). After destroying my skin a few times with Burts Bees, Egyptian Magic, and other products, I did some research.. its really quite common. I thought no, how could I be allergic to something that's in everything?? Keep in mind I'm NOT allergic to honey and ingested bee products.


Thanks for posting that Ava. Smile

A guess ... Different bee populations have access to different plants and therefore different pollen and resins which are incorporated into the hive. It should be relatively straightforward to refine honey or supplements such that proteins are removed or destroyed by heating or filtration, but they are an integral part of the wax. It is quite possible to be allergic to a protein in one form but not be allergic to the same protein once denatured (structurally altered by heat or pH). I have heard of cases of cats/ dogs who are allergic to a cooked meat but not the same meat raw.

There is a similar situation with lanolin - the traditional warnings about allergies are virtually defunct with medical grade lanolin because the proteins have been removed. Interestingly allergies to chemicals one is regularly exposed to are more common than an adverse reaction to a novel chemical.

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:21 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
Firefox7275 wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:


People can have reactions to ANYTHING, so regardless of how organic or "natural" if it has never been used by an individual then IMO do a simple patch test and avoid any possible reaction.


I've just backed up your anecdotes with actual science, sweetie. Wink


Here is an anecdotal example for you:

My good friends daughter is allergic to both Benadryl and Epinephrine. What do they normally give to a patient who is having a severe reaction? You guessed it those exact meds. that she is allergic to.


I think you may be confusing sensitivities of all sorts with allergy. One cannot be allergic to epinephrine (adrenaline) because our own bodies produce it, in fact it is essential to human life. We die without it. Allergy to it would be invariably fatal.

But someone can be "sensitive" in some other sense -- it naturally causes heart to race, BP goes up, a "flight or fight" reaction - which is scary by nature. Anybody who complains about its effects can be labelled "sensitive".
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:27 pm      Reply with quote
Ava with wings wrote:
Sorry to get off topic, but I'm allergic to bee propolis (beeswax). After destroying my skin a few times with Burts Bees, Egyptian Magic, and other products, I did some research.. its really quite common. I thought no, how could I be allergic to something that's in everything?? Keep in mind I'm NOT allergic to honey and ingested bee products.

Big thanks to Dark Moon and Firefox for raising awareness on this thread, sometimes we all need a reminder.


Beeswax contains certain proteins not found in honey. Most allergies are to proteins.
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:33 pm      Reply with quote
What's the difference between adrenaline (epinephrine) and noradrenaline (norepinephrine)?

Confusingly, the substance called adrenaline by most of the world is known as epinephrine to Americans. Similarly, arenaline's cousin, noradrenaline is correspondingly known as norepinephrine. This proliferation of terminology would make this post too confusing, so I'm going to stick with adrenaline and noradrenaline here. (Apologies to American readers!)

[As an aside: why the dual names? I had no idea, but Professor Wikipedia assures me that an American company called Parke-Davis & Co. somehow managed to market a concentrated form of adrenaline under the name... Adrenalin. Since this was a little too close, name-wise, to the generic name for the substance, it was decided to switch the generic name to epinephrine. The choice was actually quite clever, since adrenaline is derived from the Latin ad (above) + renes (the kidney). Epinephrine is just the (ancient) Greek version of this, with epi + nephros meaning exactly the same thing.]

But back to the topic. For one, they are obviously chemically distinct - adrenaline is produced by the body via a modification of noradrenaline. Just what is changed isn't important in the slightest, so I won't go on about this aspect.

Secondly, they are used in slightly different places. Noradrenaline is used in the postganglionic neurones of the sympathetic nervous system. It is also used as a neurotransmitter, which obviously implies that it is generated within the neurones of the brain too. Adrenaline is largely produced by the adrenal medulla, although this structure does also produce some noradrenaline.

Lastly, while related, their functions differ somewhat. You may know that there are several types of receptors for adrenaline. For instance α1 receptors are found on blood vessels and stimulation leads to their constriction. On the other hand, β1 receptors are located on the heart, and their stimulation leads to an increase in the rate and force of the heart's contraction. Adrenaline is rather nonspecific, stimulating α, β1 and β2 receptors more or less equally. By contrast, noradrenaline exerts predominantly α activity, although it does stimulate the β to a lesser degree. Also, as mentioned, noradrenaline acts as a neurotransmitter in the brain too, playing a role in alertness, arousal and reward pathways.

There's considerably more detail out there on this topic, but, again, I can't see its use unless you happen to be doing a PhD!


http://medicguide.blogspot.com/2008/07/whats-difference-between-adrenaline.html

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:06 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
What's the difference between adrenaline (epinephrine) and noradrenaline (norepinephrine)?

Confusingly, the substance called adrenaline by most of the world is known as epinephrine to Americans. Similarly, arenaline's cousin, noradrenaline is correspondingly known as norepinephrine. This proliferation of terminology would make this post too confusing, so I'm going to stick with adrenaline and noradrenaline here. (Apologies to American readers!)

[As an aside: why the dual names? I had no idea, but Professor Wikipedia assures me that an American company called Parke-Davis & Co. somehow managed to market a concentrated form of adrenaline under the name... Adrenalin. Since this was a little too close, name-wise, to the generic name for the substance, it was decided to switch the generic name to epinephrine. The choice was actually quite clever, since adrenaline is derived from the Latin ad (above) + renes (the kidney). Epinephrine is just the (ancient) Greek version of this, with epi + nephros meaning exactly the same thing.]

But back to the topic. For one, they are obviously chemically distinct - adrenaline is produced by the body via a modification of noradrenaline. Just what is changed isn't important in the slightest, so I won't go on about this aspect.

Secondly, they are used in slightly different places. Noradrenaline is used in the postganglionic neurones of the sympathetic nervous system. It is also used as a neurotransmitter, which obviously implies that it is generated within the neurones of the brain too. Adrenaline is largely produced by the adrenal medulla, although this structure does also produce some noradrenaline.

Lastly, while related, their functions differ somewhat. You may know that there are several types of receptors for adrenaline. For instance α1 receptors are found on blood vessels and stimulation leads to their constriction. On the other hand, β1 receptors are located on the heart, and their stimulation leads to an increase in the rate and force of the heart's contraction. Adrenaline is rather nonspecific, stimulating α, β1 and β2 receptors more or less equally. By contrast, noradrenaline exerts predominantly α activity, although it does stimulate the β to a lesser degree. Also, as mentioned, noradrenaline acts as a neurotransmitter in the brain too, playing a role in alertness, arousal and reward pathways.

There's considerably more detail out there on this topic, but, again, I can't see its use unless you happen to be doing a PhD!


http://medicguide.blogspot.com/2008/07/whats-difference-between-adrenaline.html


Chemically speaking, two structures differ only in that epinephrine has a methyl group attached to its nitrogen, whereas the methyl group is replaced by a hydrogen atom in norepinephrine.

Whether in UK or US, in the medical world the preferred terms are epinephrine and norepinephrine.
Firefox7275
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:21 pm      Reply with quote
Knowledge of endocrinology, the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems is useful to many healthcare and physical activity professionals, not just those doing a PhD. That said could get back on topic?

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Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:15 pm      Reply with quote
Firefox,
Besides Aloe, your dear love;) , what other actives do you find to be particularly useful?

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