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Lotusesther
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:44 am      Reply with quote
To complicate matters even more I suggest to consider synergies and countereffects. Some actives perform considerably better when combined with others (ACE, KinNiaG come to mind), and no doubt other actives can be bad combinations.
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 am      Reply with quote
DragoN wrote:
Firefox,
Besides Aloe, your dear love;) , what other actives do you find to be particularly useful?


Nay AV be my bestest concubine but lanolin be my true love. Urea (humectant, keratolytic, possible delivery enhancer), unrefined shea butter, borage oil, allantoin. Lecithin is very interesting, I need to do some reading. As DrJ says, everyone is biased and mine is glaringly obvious with that collection! Laughing I took my bat and ball home weeks ago so I don't know which of these have been covered on this thread.

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Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:48 am      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
Knowledge of endocrinology, the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems is useful to many healthcare and physical activity professionals, not just those doing a PhD. That said could get back on topic?


Here is the background just to straighten things out:

This happened to my friends child in 1985 and the information regarding the then infants reaction/allergies to both medications was reported to the parents by The ER Staff (Trama Specialist) as well as The CCU doctors at Children's Hospital, Washington DC. One of the most renowned hospital in the area treating infants and children. Not from the (very well educated parents or me).

Back to the topic at hand, Thanks

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Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:51 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Have we yet discovered a vitamin that is NOT good for skin?


I rest my case.

BFG
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:54 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Have we yet discovered a vitamin that is NOT good for skin?


I rest my case.

BFG


Not any that I know of! Smile

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Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:58 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Have we yet discovered a vitamin that is NOT good for skin?


I rest my case.

BFG


I read this on the Futurederm site (take that for what it is worth), which I thought was interesting.

While use of glycolic acid has been shown in this 2007 study in the Journal of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery to improve the appearance of wrinkles over vitamin-based formulas or placebo [by increasing mRNA and type 1 collagen production], this collagen production is stimulated by gently thinning the uppermost layer of skin. Think of when you’d scrape your knee when you were little and all that scar tissue would form – the injury would incite new collagen. Same thing in a lighter form with AHA treatments – a gentle exfoliation leads to greater collagen production over time.
http://www.futurederm.com/2012/04/13/the-secret-to-victorias-secret-model-worthy-skin-dr-dennis-gross-skin-care-alpha-beta-glow-pad-review/
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:03 am      Reply with quote
Two things:

(1) Has anyone been able to yet locate Carol Demas? (for all we know, she may not be writing about skincare any longer?)

(2) At the risk of sounding patently obvious, our skin is part of our body - that said, whenever we put something on it, should we not also consider what would happen were we to ingest or inject the same substance? I am not about to down a spoonful of lanolin anytime soon, but I do ingest animal fats in my meals. I wouldn't eat a spoonful of sunscreen, so I take extra care to investigate the ingredients...so what is my point? I am not sure, lol - just tend to view the holistic nature of whatever I eat, place on my body etc...and the effects of said ingredients - recently moved to Chagrin Valley shampoo bars (honey, animal fats, etc.)....I have this fantasy that one day I'll return to the country and to live/raise my own plants and animals with rarely a trip to a store - online or otherwise.

BFG
DrJ
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:30 am      Reply with quote
What is wrong with this ingredient deck:

Water, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine Lactate, Distearyldimonium Chloride, Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60, PEG-150 Stearate, Steareth 20, Cetyl Alcohol, STEARYL alcohol, Glycerine, Coconut Oil, Sodium Chloride, Vegetable Oil, Fragrance, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, DMDM Hydantoin, Phenoxyethanol, Protein, Lanolin, PEG-25 Castor Oil, Allantoin, Isopropyl Alcohol, FD &C Yellow #5, FD & C Yellow #6.

...and what is the real active here?
DarkMoon
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:43 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
What is wrong with this ingredient deck:

Water, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine Lactate, Distearyldimonium Chloride, Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60, PEG-150 Stearate, Steareth 20, Cetyl Alcohol, STEARYL alcohol, Glycerine, Coconut Oil, Sodium Chloride, Vegetable Oil, Fragrance, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, DMDM Hydantoin, Phenoxyethanol, Protein, Lanolin, PEG-25 Castor Oil, Allantoin, Isopropyl Alcohol, FD &C Yellow #5, FD & C Yellow #6.

...and what is the real active here?


My first criticism (and only one of a few) is the use of Protein without specifying what the source of said protein is, or how it is processed.

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Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:04 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
DrJ wrote:
What is wrong with this ingredient deck:

Water, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine Lactate, Distearyldimonium Chloride, Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60, PEG-150 Stearate, Steareth 20, Cetyl Alcohol, STEARYL alcohol, Glycerine, Coconut Oil, Sodium Chloride, Vegetable Oil, Fragrance, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, DMDM Hydantoin, Phenoxyethanol, Protein, Lanolin, PEG-25 Castor Oil, Allantoin, Isopropyl Alcohol, FD &C Yellow #5, FD & C Yellow #6.

...and what is the real active here?


My first criticism (and only one of a few) is the use of Protein without specifying what the source of said protein is, or how it is processed.


It's hydrolysed protein, so we can assume it derives from animal hides (collagen!?!), just like jello.
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:04 am      Reply with quote
Hoofmaker
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Active Ingredients:
Water, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine Lactate, Distearyldimonium Chloride, Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60, PEG-150 Stearate, Steareth 20, Cetyl Alcohol, STEARYL alcohol, Glycerine, Coconut Oil, Sodium Chloride, Vegetable Oil, Fragrance, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, DMDM Hydantoin, Phenoxyethanol, Protein, Lanolin, PEG-25 Castor Oil, Allantoin, Isopropyl Alcohol, FD &C Yellow #5, FD & C Yellow #6.

Dosage & Administration:

For Use On Animals: Apply by hand, covering the entire hoof surface including coronary band, walls, frog and sole. Massage in with fingertips, leaving a thin, even film to absorb into the hoof. Apply daily or as recommended by your professional equine authority.

For use on Humans:

Apply to hands, nails, cuticles and skin as necessary. Massage into dry skin, especially hands, elbows and feet.

Apparently, it's safe for equines and humans. Wink

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DrJ
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:08 am      Reply with quote
DragoN wrote:
Hoofmaker
Straight Arrow Products, Inc.

Active Ingredients:
Water, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine Lactate, Distearyldimonium Chloride, Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60, PEG-150 Stearate, Steareth 20, Cetyl Alcohol, STEARYL alcohol, Glycerine, Coconut Oil, Sodium Chloride, Vegetable Oil, Fragrance, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, DMDM Hydantoin, Phenoxyethanol, Protein, Lanolin, PEG-25 Castor Oil, Allantoin, Isopropyl Alcohol, FD &C Yellow #5, FD & C Yellow #6.


Dosage & Administration:

For Use On Animals: Apply by hand, covering the entire hoof surface including coronary band, walls, frog and sole. Massage in with fingertips, leaving a thin, even film to absorb into the hoof. Apply daily or as recommended by your professional equine authority.

For use on Humans:

Apply to hands, nails, cuticles and skin as necessary. Massage into dry skin, especially hands, elbows and feet.

Apparently, it's safe for equines and humans. Wink


DragonN is way too quick for me. Now - would it surprise you to know this was my most recommended non-Rx topical therapy when I was in practice? What do you suppose I was thinking??? PS - I am not a veterinarian.
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:08 am      Reply with quote
I have stated elsewhere I personally am not fond of the hydrolyzing process, but that aside can the Collagen molecule penetrate into the skin? Yes I see penetration enhancers in the list.

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DrJ
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:33 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
I have stated elsewhere I personally am not fond of the hydrolyzing process, but that aside can the Collagen molecule penetrate into the skin? Yes I see penetration enhancers in the list.


Great question. But if collagen could be absorbed, would that be a good thing? Lets say human skin. Is just plain collagen going to do any good? Can it be incorporated into collagen bundles? Are there potential problems?

What do horses hooves and human skin have in common?
DragoN
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:41 am      Reply with quote
Keratin?

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Lotusesther
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:17 am      Reply with quote
There seems to be a lot of salt (sodium chloride) in it. Never saw it that high in an ingredient list for skin care/cure before.

Edit: in an ointment or salve that is. Of course bath salts etc are a different thing, but then you're supposed to dilute the stuff of course.
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:19 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
I have stated elsewhere I personally am not fond of the hydrolyzing process, but that aside can the Collagen molecule penetrate into the skin? Yes I see penetration enhancers in the list.


Great question. But if collagen could be absorbed, would that be a good thing? Lets say human skin. Is just plain collagen going to do any good? Can it be incorporated into collagen bundles? Are there potential problems?

What do horses hooves and human skin have in common?


I never said it was good only asked if it could penetrate.

For me anything that speeds my hair or nail growth is out they grow way too fast as it is!

So what else do you suggest it for?

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Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:53 pm      Reply with quote
DragoN wrote:
Keratin?


Yes. Hooves are highly keratinized, most like our fingernails. Keratinization is a major part of the stratum corneum's protective barrier. Hyperkeratinization can be a major problem in psoriasis, and even has a role ion acne.

I used to see a lot of obese diabetics. They are very prone to hyperkeratinized, fissured heels

http://www.foot-pain-explained.com/heel-fissure.html

I also found that most of the medicines that claim to help this problem are not all that helpful. Then one day I heard about Hoofmaker from a patient who said it cured her. I started recommending it to others -- and ended up with a series of successes. (of course I got a lot of puzzled looks when I told patients to obtain this wonder drug at a tack store).

I am now looking back at this as an academic and asking - why does it work so well? With hooves the idea is not to exfoliate + hydrate like it is with human skin when dealing with hyperkeratinization. Its about maintaining flexibility so it withstands strain better (sort of like hydration).

Anyway, just thought I would share this clinical pearl because I know some of you are fond of lanolin. Could that be the key active?
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:29 pm      Reply with quote
riley,

Thank you for pointing us to that study. It does not surprise me to see that glycolic showed more improvement than the vitamins. Those types of acids penetrate the skin whereas...vitamins are notorious for issues with penetration to deeper levels where they can be effective. That was always my problem with Vitamin C - as if the whole oxidation issue weren't enough, then you have to worry about formulating it just right for penetration...that's my reasoning behind applying the vitamin based recipe after a deep roll, while the channels are open.


BFG
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:40 pm      Reply with quote
Cracked heels...wow, I'd like to have back all the money I spent on various creams trying to get rid of those until I finally found the cheap miracle cure - apple cider vinegar.

Periodically, I soak my feet in an ACV bath ( I used to dilute with water, no longer do that)...for about 30 - 45 minutes, usually while computing or watching TV. I then jump into the shower, take my buffing tool and watch the skin just fall off into the shower and down the drain. Since doing this, I have never had another problem with rough feet...they are smooth like a baby, even in winter.

BFG
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:57 pm      Reply with quote
Wow, thanks for posting that I am going to try your foot fix! Any special potion on after you shower?
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:45 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
DragoN wrote:
Keratin?


Yes. Hooves are highly keratinized, most like our fingernails. Keratinization is a major part of the stratum corneum's protective barrier. Hyperkeratinization can be a major problem in psoriasis, and even has a role ion acne.

I used to see a lot of obese diabetics. They are very prone to hyperkeratinized, fissured heels

http://www.foot-pain-explained.com/heel-fissure.html

I also found that most of the medicines that claim to help this problem are not all that helpful. Then one day I heard about Hoofmaker from a patient who said it cured her. I started recommending it to others -- and ended up with a series of successes. (of course I got a lot of puzzled looks when I told patients to obtain this wonder drug at a tack store).

I am now looking back at this as an academic and asking - why does it work so well? With hooves the idea is not to exfoliate + hydrate like it is with human skin when dealing with hyperkeratinization. Its about maintaining flexibility so it withstands strain better (sort of like hydration).

Anyway, just thought I would share this clinical pearl because I know some of you are fond of lanolin. Could that be the key active?


I just purchased some of this for my HB. Candessence used to sell a product called Theraphy for the Sole but it's no longer available. Hope this works for him. Hey Candy, if you are out there reading this topic "I'm waving at you".

PS I just love EDS, so much great info here.

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Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:03 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Cracked heels...wow, I'd like to have back all the money I spent on various creams trying to get rid of those until I finally found the cheap miracle cure - apple cider vinegar.

Periodically, I soak my feet in an ACV bath ( I used to dilute with water, no longer do that)...for about 30 - 45 minutes, usually while computing or watching TV. I then jump into the shower, take my buffing tool and watch the skin just fall off into the shower and down the drain. Since doing this, I have never had another problem with rough feet...they are smooth like a baby, even in winter.

BFG


Vinegar is great for getting rid of things that stick to keratin, but not de-keratinizing. That is why it is so good for hair - it won't strip the shaft of it's keratin like so many chemicals do.
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:04 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
I have stated elsewhere I personally am not fond of the hydrolyzing process, but that aside can the Collagen molecule penetrate into the skin? Yes I see penetration enhancers in the list.


Great question. But if collagen could be absorbed, would that be a good thing? Lets say human skin. Is just plain collagen going to do any good? Can it be incorporated into collagen bundles? Are there potential problems?

What do horses hooves and human skin have in common?


I might be going off track here, but there have been some great reviews on another thread about NeoCell Collagen, which has hydrolyzed collagen. When looking at the ingredient list, it seems it's nothing but amino acids, which I thought can be absorbed by the human body when ingested... I personally take 4500-9000mg of BCAAs daily because of my strenuous exercise routine, and I have no clue if it helps or not, but I thought I do absorb them. So how is hydrolyzed collagen different? Why do we not absorb it? Or is that that we do absorb the amino acids in a product like NeoCell Collagen, but what we absorb does not transform into collagen in our bodies?

As for topicals, does the particle size have anything to do with the absorption of hydrolized collagen? Is there an active that can help the absorption?

I think I'm going to grab a packet of Knox gelatine and run an experiment, applying it on my skin Smile

Thank you for your feedback!
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:41 pm      Reply with quote
fitgineer wrote:
DrJ wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
I have stated elsewhere I personally am not fond of the hydrolyzing process, but that aside can the Collagen molecule penetrate into the skin? Yes I see penetration enhancers in the list.


Great question. But if collagen could be absorbed, would that be a good thing? Lets say human skin. Is just plain collagen going to do any good? Can it be incorporated into collagen bundles? Are there potential problems?

What do horses hooves and human skin have in common?


I might be going off track here, but there have been some great reviews on another thread about NeoCell Collagen, which has hydrolyzed collagen. When looking at the ingredient list, it seems it's nothing but amino acids, which I thought can be absorbed by the human body when ingested... I personally take 4500-9000mg of BCAAs daily because of my strenuous exercise routine, and I have no clue if it helps or not, but I thought I do absorb them. So how is hydrolyzed collagen different? Why do we not absorb it? Or is that that we do absorb the amino acids in a product like NeoCell Collagen, but what we absorb does not transform into collagen in our bodies?

As for topicals, does the particle size have anything to do with the absorption of hydrolized collagen? Is there an active that can help the absorption?

I think I'm going to grab a packet of Knox gelatine and run an experiment, applying it on my skin Smile

Thank you for your feedback!


Knox. Good for you. Go for generic equivalents to high cost useless products.

Hydrolysed collagen is actually useful for topical hydration. Beyond that, it does nothing. Big fragments not absorbed. Smaller bits useless peptides and amino acids. Will not join in with your own collagen to make new bundles. Does not supply needed substrate to make collagen. Collagen fragments may even be a negative feedback signal to fibroblasts that they don't need to make any more.

Save more money - if you want a high BCAA diet eat egg whites or buffalo meat, don't waste money on the supplements. All the BCAA can be made by transamination anyway. Any high quality protein will do (if you liver is working). But not too much - high protein diets can be very stressful to kidneys.

Amino acids slathered on skin do nothing. You get all you need where it counts from the bloodstream from ingested protein. Contrary to myth, they cannot self assemble into useful peptides or proteins. They really just get stuck in debris and are shed anyway. Gummy mess, good fro growing yeasties in though. But who wants to wear fungus food?
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