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free skin care · Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:50 pm

...but it's my understanding that this type of collagen (Neocell) is ingested orally, not slathered on top of the skin.

I am unsure of it's mechanism for improvement. The only thing I am aware of with evidence behind it is the Biosil product...but would love to get info on others, if there are any.

BFG

free skin care · Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:20 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

...but it's my understanding that this type of collagen (Neocell) is ingested orally, not slathered on top of the skin.

I am unsure of it's mechanism for improvement. The only thing I am aware of with evidence behind it is the Biosil product...but would love to get info on others, if there are any.

BFG

OK, let's talk digestion. If you eat any protein, whether animal hides (collagen) or any other, it gets broken down to small peptides and amino acids. Same as if you eat Knox gelatin, or hamburger, which ounce for ounce is a lot cheaper.

Our diet is already too high in protein, so it's not helping a darn thing. You are adding to the problem. 20 years of that and it's "goodbye kidneys".

In fact, on a scale of protein quality (which has to do with the balance of amino acids) - eggs are near the top of the list, and collagen is near the bottom.

So next time you are tempted to suck on the byproducts of the slaughterhouse, go make yourself some eggs instead. But for max health limit all protein to less than 1 gm/kg/day.

free skin care · Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:21 pm

Could we just start a thread on food and cosmetic QUACKERY and start calling the spades spades?

free skin care · Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:35 pm

DrJ wrote:

Could we just start a thread on food and cosmetic QUACKERY and start calling the spades spades?

Maybe you'd be interested in busting some myths on this thread:

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=44869

free skin care · Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:38 pm

DrJ wrote:

But for max health limit all protein to less than 1 gm/kg/day.

What does "less than 1 gm/kg/day" look like?

free skin care · Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:46 pm

Water, urea (25%), lanolin, safflower seed oil, cetearyl alcohol, glycerin, cetyl palmitate (and) sorbitan palmitate (and) sorbitan olivate, stearic acid, olive fruit oil, carpryl glycol (and) sorbic acid (and) phenoxyethanol, glyceryl stearate, Centipeda cunninghamii extract, sodium PCA, shea butter, rosemary oil, tea tree oil, tocopheryl acetate, panthenol, ascorbic acid, allantoin, aloe vera leaf juice, arginine.

"Flexitol Naturals heel balm is a natural formulation which combines the latest ingredients in skin care including Centipeda cunninghamii, a unique Australian herb with skin nourishing properties. This highly efficacious combination also contains 25% urea in addition to shea butter, tea tree oil, allantoin and arginine to deeply penetrate into feet for optimal moisturisation and hydration. Visible results in three days, natural formula, enriched with pro-vitamin B5, vitamin E and vitamin C."
[From the packaging blurb]

IMO the Aussie herb is a red herring, urea and lanolin are the stars. Switch the water and the AV around and I'd die a happy woman. Laughing

free skin care · Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:46 pm

fitgineer wrote:

DrJ wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

I have stated elsewhere I personally am not fond of the hydrolyzing process, but that aside can the Collagen molecule penetrate into the skin? Yes I see penetration enhancers in the list.

Great question. But if collagen could be absorbed, would that be a good thing? Lets say human skin. Is just plain collagen going to do any good? Can it be incorporated into collagen bundles? Are there potential problems?

What do horses hooves and human skin have in common?

I might be going off track here, but there have been some great reviews on another thread about NeoCell Collagen, which has hydrolyzed collagen. When looking at the ingredient list, it seems it's nothing but amino acids, which I thought can be absorbed by the human body when ingested... I personally take 4500-9000mg of BCAAs daily because of my strenuous exercise routine, and I have no clue if it helps or not, but I thought I do absorb them. So how is hydrolyzed collagen different? Why do we not absorb it? Or is that that we do absorb the amino acids in a product like NeoCell Collagen, but what we absorb does not transform into collagen in our bodies?

As for topicals, does the particle size have anything to do with the absorption of hydrolized collagen? Is there an active that can help the absorption?

I think I'm going to grab a packet of Knox gelatine and run an experiment, applying it on my skin Smile

Thank you for your feedback!

Here is the production:

Production

Hydrolyzed collagen is produced from collagen found in the bones, skin, and connective tissue of animals such as cattle, fish, horses, pigs, and rabbits. The process of hydrolysis involves breaking down the molecular bonds between individual collagen strands using heat and either acid or alkali solutions. Typically, with skin sourced collagen, hides are put in a lime slurry pit for up to 3 months, loosening collagen bonds; the hides are then washed to remove lime, and the collagen extracted in boiling water. The extracted collagen is evaporator concentrated, desiccated with drum driers, and pulverized. [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolyzed_collagen

I think Dr. J covered the rest that I have mentioned before although in a more simplified way....not the popular view with many members buying and consuming hydrolyzed Collagen, much less applying it topically.

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:53 am

My choice for dry skin of any kind, anywhere on the body. (Will have to type up the ingredient list later, unfortunately I can't find it on their website any longer!)

http://www.skin-lasting.com/

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:03 am

rileygirl wrote:

My choice for dry skin of any kind, anywhere on the body. (Will have to type up the ingredient list later, unfortunately I can't find it on their website any longer!)

http://www.skin-lasting.com/

Are these the correct ones? Marta on TIA listed:

Water, vegetable glycerin, lactic acid, urea (carbamide), aloe vera leaf juice, hyaluronic acid, green tea leaf extract, vitamin C, sea salt

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:09 am

DrJ wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

...but it's my understanding that this type of collagen (Neocell) is ingested orally, not slathered on top of the skin.

I am unsure of it's mechanism for improvement. The only thing I am aware of with evidence behind it is the Biosil product...but would love to get info on others, if there are any.

BFG

OK, let's talk digestion. If you eat any protein, whether animal hides (collagen) or any other, it gets broken down to small peptides and amino acids. Same as if you eat Knox gelatin, or hamburger, which ounce for ounce is a lot cheaper.

Our diet is already too high in protein, so it's not helping a darn thing. You are adding to the problem. 20 years of that and it's "goodbye kidneys".

In fact, on a scale of protein quality (which has to do with the balance of amino acids) - eggs are near the top of the list, and collagen is near the bottom.

So next time you are tempted to suck on the byproducts of the slaughterhouse, go make yourself some eggs instead. But for max health limit all protein to less than 1 gm/kg/day.

THANK YOU! It's important people read this, since upping your protein intake is propagated in practically every thread on facial exercise, suggesting our regular diet is too low on protein. Even though the advised amounts today are literally double what was advised when I was a child.

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:19 am

DarkMoon wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

My choice for dry skin of any kind, anywhere on the body. (Will have to type up the ingredient list later, unfortunately I can't find it on their website any longer!)

http://www.skin-lasting.com/

Are these the correct ones? Marta on TIA listed:

Water, vegetable glycerin, lactic acid, urea (carbamide), aloe vera leaf juice, hyaluronic acid, green tea leaf extract, vitamin C, sea salt

Yep! Thank you for finding them, so I didn't have to type them out! Laughing

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:27 am

rileygirl wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

My choice for dry skin of any kind, anywhere on the body. (Will have to type up the ingredient list later, unfortunately I can't find it on their website any longer!)

http://www.skin-lasting.com/

Are these the correct ones? Marta on TIA listed:

Water, vegetable glycerin, lactic acid, urea (carbamide), aloe vera leaf juice, hyaluronic acid, green tea leaf extract, vitamin C, sea salt

Yep! Thank you for finding them, so I didn't have to type them out! Laughing

You are welcome, figured typing them was a PIA if I could find the right list online! Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:38 am

DarkMoon wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

My choice for dry skin of any kind, anywhere on the body. (Will have to type up the ingredient list later, unfortunately I can't find it on their website any longer!)

http://www.skin-lasting.com/

Are these the correct ones? Marta on TIA listed:

Water, vegetable glycerin, lactic acid, urea (carbamide), aloe vera leaf juice, hyaluronic acid, green tea leaf extract, vitamin C, sea salt

I'm confused. What is this a lit of???

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:49 am

DrJ wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

My choice for dry skin of any kind, anywhere on the body. (Will have to type up the ingredient list later, unfortunately I can't find it on their website any longer!)

http://www.skin-lasting.com/

Are these the correct ones? Marta on TIA listed:

Water, vegetable glycerin, lactic acid, urea (carbamide), aloe vera leaf juice, hyaluronic acid, green tea leaf extract, vitamin C, sea salt

I'm confused. What is this a lit of???

It is a list of ingredients for something Riley has used and likes called skin-lasting hydrating moisturizer. Site link below:

http://www.skin-lasting.com/

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:40 am

Dr J,
Do you think the amino acids in 'euramin beauty'
could really help the skin and body?
TIA

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:38 am

DarkMoon wrote:

Are these the correct ones? Marta on TIA listed:

Water, vegetable glycerin, lactic acid, urea (carbamide), aloe vera leaf juice, hyaluronic acid, green tea leaf extract, vitamin C, sea salt

That is a lot of humectants!

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:55 am

DarkMoon wrote:

DrJ wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

My choice for dry skin of any kind, anywhere on the body. (Will have to type up the ingredient list later, unfortunately I can't find it on their website any longer!)

http://www.skin-lasting.com/

Are these the correct ones? Marta on TIA listed:

Water, vegetable glycerin, lactic acid, urea (carbamide), aloe vera leaf juice, hyaluronic acid, green tea leaf extract, vitamin C, sea salt

I'm confused. What is this a lit of???

It is a list of ingredients for something Riley has used and likes called skin-lasting hydrating moisturizer. Site link below:

http://www.skin-lasting.com/

Its mainly glycerin. Cheap, effective. There are better approaches if you want to optimize the sensory experience.

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:03 am

Holmes wrote:

Dr J,
Do you think the amino acids in 'euramin beauty'
could really help the skin and body?
TIA

Amino acids applied topically are entirely useless. The route for amino acids to reach the place where skin is regenerated and nourished is your bloodstream. Your body manufactures amino acids from protein you eat, mainly in your liver. It maintains a nice healthy balance. There is no shortage of protein in your diet (if you are not severely malnourished).

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:15 am

DrJ wrote:

Could we just start a thread on food and cosmetic QUACKERY and start calling the spades spades?

Done:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6457790#6457790

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:59 am

DrJ wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

Water, vegetable glycerin, lactic acid, urea (carbamide), aloe vera leaf juice, hyaluronic acid, green tea leaf extract, vitamin C, sea salt

Its mainly glycerin. Cheap, effective.

Yes, it is, cheap and Effective. Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:07 pm

rileygirl wrote:

DrJ wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

Water, vegetable glycerin, lactic acid, urea (carbamide), aloe vera leaf juice, hyaluronic acid, green tea leaf extract, vitamin C, sea salt

Its mainly glycerin. Cheap, effective.

Yes, it is, cheap and Effective. Very Happy

So it works well for you without breaking the bank? Laughing

free skin care · Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:21 pm

Can we do kinetin now? DragoN keeps saying it's a great ingredient. What do we need to know about it? What will it do for us?

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:15 am

jom wrote:

Can we do kinetin now? DragoN keeps saying it's a great ingredient. What do we need to know about it? What will it do for us?

DragoN is the real expert on this and can go deep. Just to get you started (while she sleeps) ...

From:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2921764/pdf/jcad_3_2_22.pdf

What is kinetin (N-furfuryladenine growth factor)?

Kinetin is an essential plant growth hormone that regulates aspects of growth and differentiation, retards leaf yellowing and senescence, and slows down fruit ripening and degeneration.

Miller CO, Skoog F, von Saltza MH, Strong FM. Kinetin, a cell division factor from deoxyribonucleic acid. J Am Chem Soci.
1955;77:1392.

Amasino R. 1955: Kinetin arrives: the 50th anniversary of a new plant hormone.Plant Physiol. 2005;138:1177–1184.

What data is available on the percutaneous absorption of kinetin?

The authors were unable to find any studies investigating the percutaneous absorption of kinetin. However, kinetin has been shown to be nonirritating to the skin, easily formulated, chemically stable, and compatible with other formulation components.

Chiu PC, Chan CC, Lin HM, Chiu HC. The clinical anti-aging effects of topical kinetin and niacinamide in Asians: a randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled, split face comparative trial. J Cosmet Dermatol. 2007;6:243–249.

What are the potential mechanisms of action of kinetin?

Kinetin is shown to exert its anti-aging effects in different systems including plants, fruit flies, and cultured human skin fibroblasts. Studies on human fibroblasts in vitro have demonstrated that kinetin may have the ability to delay the onset of age-related changes as well as decrease the severity of these changes.

Rivers JK. The role of cosmeceuticals in antiaging therapy. Skin Therapy Lett. 2008;13:1–9.

These age-related changes include the alteration in cell size and shape, growth rates, cytoskeletal structure, macromolecular synthesis, and quantity of lipofuscin. The delay of age-related cellular characteristics were most pronounced in cultures where kinetin was continuously present. It was noted that some aging characteristics began to reappear upon removal of kinetin, and youthful characteristics in general were better maintained in younger cells compared to older cells. This suggests that continued use of kinetin is necessary to maintain results and that there may be additional benefit to starting kinetin at a younger age.

Glaser D. Anti-aging products and cosmeceuticals. Facial Plast Surg Clin N Am. 2004:12:363–372.

However, the mechanism by which kinetin exerts its effects on human fibroblasts remains elusive.

NOTE- THIS IS THE ONLY REASON IT IS NOT IN ANTEAGE. EVERY PART OF THE PUZZLE NEEDED TO FIT. HOWEVER, THERE IS SOME MORE RECENT WORK I WILL SHARE LATER.

Antioxidant effects.

Investigators have surmised that the mechanism of action that results in age retardation may involve the genes that influence aging and may involve kinetin acting as both an inhibitor of reactive oxygen species (ROS) formation and a scavenger of ROS. Many studies have shown kinetin to be a powerful antioxidant. Kinetin has the ability to mimic superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity, activate both SOD and catalase expression, and quench ROS.

Barciszwski J, Rattan SIS, Sibooska G, Clark BFC. Kinetin— 45 years on. Plant Science. 1999:148:37–45.

Olsen A, Siboska GE, Clark BFC, Rattan SIS. N(6)-Furfuryladenine, kinetin protects against Fenton reaction mediated oxidative damage to DNA. Biochem Physiol Res Commun. 1999; 265:499–502.

Also, kinetin has been shown to prevent the oxidation of unsaturated fatty acids and inhibit the in-vitro oxidation of DNA.36,37 Also, Verbeke et al38 demonstrated that kinetin can inhibit the oxidation and glycation/glycoxidation of proteins. By inhibiting the oxidation and glycation/glycoxidation of proteins, kinetin inhibits the formation of advanced glycation/glycoxidation end products (AGE). These results strengthen the view that kinetin is a powerful antioxidant with significant biological properties and useful potential for the prevention of oxidative damage.

Verbeke P, Siboska G, Clark BFC, Rattan NSIS. Kinetin inhibits protein oxidation and glycoxidation in vitro. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2000; 276:1265–1270.

Other effects

Although clinical studies of topical kinetin have suggested improvement in skin texture, a decrease in hyperpigmentation, and a decrease in TEWL, there appears to be no reported mechanisms for how kinetin improves skin texture, fine wrinkles, hyperpigmentation, and/or the SC permeability barrier.

What clinical studies are available on kinetin?

One open-label study about the clinical safety and efficacy of kinetin 0.1% lotion on human skin was published by McCullough et al.39 Ninety-six subjects with photodamaged skin showed improvement in the categories of skin texture, color, blotchiness, and fine wrinkles after 24 weeks of twice-daily application of 0.01%, 0.05%, or 0.10% kinetin. Average improvements ranged from 17 to 63 percent over baseline. In addition, the results of this study suggest that kinetin improves barrier function of the SC, as evidenced by a mean decrease in TEWL after 14 weeks of use. Hence, this demonstrated that topical kinetin (0.01%–0.1%) can partially improve some of the clinical signs of mild-to-moderately photodamaged skin, such as skin texture, fine wrinkles, skin color, and blotchiness, and can help restore normal skin barrier function with 12 to 24 weeks of topical application.

McCullough JL, Weinstein GD. Clinical study of safety and efficacy of using topical kinetin 0.1% (Kinerase) to treat photodamaged skin. Cosmetic Dermatol. 2002;15:29–32.

Summary for ingredient substantiation:

Another study investigated the anti-aging effects of topical kinetin 0.03% in combination with niacinamide 4% versus niacinamide 4% alone in Asians. Amasino et al26 found that the combination of kinetin and niacinamide and niacinamide alone effectively improved many of the facial aging signs in Asians. This combination of ingredients reduced the number of hyperpigmented spots and red blotchiness as well as increased SC hydration status with more persistence than the formula containing niacinamide alone. The authors believe that this indicates a decisive role for kinetin in the formulation and that kinetin plus niacinamide may be used as an adjunctive therapy for anti-aging purposes of the skin

Chiu PC, Chan CC, Lin HM, Chiu HC. The clinical anti-aging effects of topical kinetin and niacinamide in Asians: randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled, split face comparative trial. J Cosmet Dermatol. 2007;6:243–249.

What conclusions can be drawn from data on kinetin?

In summary, kinetin is a relatively new ingredient in the cosmeceutical world with anti-aging potential given its anti-aging role in plants and its in-vitro antioxidant effects.

In order to recommend kinetin, the authors feel that the scientific evidence supporting kinetin is still lacking in permeation studies and mechanistic discoveries as to how this growth factor reduces hyperpigmentation improves skin barrier function, and improves skin texture.

There is modest support of its efficacy based on clinical studies.

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:07 pm

Quote:

There is modest support of its efficacy based on clinical studies.

Modest, more than can be said of the countless actives being paraded about with glorious pdf's promising eternal youth. Sad no? It's not "exciting" enough and can't be patented to pump the $$ machine. Sederma did run the B3 trial at .03% and then cocked up another similar molecule, and patented that one..but for what? Kinetin, the good old boring variety was the one the studies were run with. It's a colossal machine and we are the targets. but not all of us . Some are sand in the gears.
Efficacy and Tolerability of Kinetin 0.1% Cream for Improving the Signs of Photoaging in Facial and Neck Skin

Oxidative Stress, the Damage- Accumulation Theory of Skin Aging, and the Role of Antioxidants in the Future
of Topical Skin Protection

Kinetin has been extensively studied wrt aging. It has unique and fascinating properties not elucidated but the effects are clear. It doesn't perform as well in isolation, but appears to do remarkably well in combination. The poor man's cytokine. Not exactly shabby though.

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:53 am

Posted by zina Tue Nov 09, 2010

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6394924

zina wrote:

Beauty Ingredients article Harper's Bazaar

Kinetin
Boasting antioxidant, hydrating and cell renewal properties this extract from the blue anemone flower works to keep skin plump and line-free.
Try Kinerase Cream SPF 15, £39.99.www.beautyexpert.co.uk
Coffee Berry
Move aside green tea, pomegranates and blueberries. The polyphenol antioxidants and essential sugars found in the fruit from Africa's coffee bush is the latest wrinkle, pigmentation and fine line-buster.
RevaléSkin's line with coffee berry extract is available only in the US but watch for it to cross the pond this year.www.revaleskin.com
Idebenone
Touted as one of the most powerful antioxidants on the market, this orange powder is said to be even more effective than its vitamin relative, CoEnzyme Q10 when it comes to destroying skin-damaging free radicals.
Elizabeth Arden's Prevage Anti-Aging Night Cream, £115
Abyssine
Touted as one of the most powerful antioxidants on the market, this orange powder is said to be even more effective than its vitamin relative, CoEnzyme Q10 when it comes to destroying skin-damaging free radicals.
Try Kiehl’s Abyssine + Cream SPF 23, £38.
Red Rice
The organic red rice grown in the wild camargue lands of Provence purifies the skin by balancing sebum production and tightening pores - perfect for combating shine on warm summer days.
Try L'Occitane's Red Rice Ultra-Matte Face Fluid, £20.
Pro-Xylane
Created by L'Oreal scientists, this high-tech sugar derivative thoroughly hydrates and plumps up lackluster skin. Coupled with another moisture-magnet - hyaluronic acid -you'll find it in L'Oréal's Derma Genesis line.
Ceratonia PFA
Squeezed from the pulp of the Mediterranean's Carob tree fruit, this active extract boosts the creation of essential fibres and enzymes that help the skin keep itself hydrated.
Try Chanel's Hydramax + Active range for super supple skin. From £25.
Ganoderma
This magic mushroom extract works wonders for reducing wrinkles and drastically improving skin quality. Its rich chemical composition includes proteins, soothing ganoderic acids and some of the most active sugars of all medicinal plants.
Find it in, Yves Saint Laurent's Temps Majeur Serum, £145.
Volufiline
A natural cholesterol extracted from an Asian root vegetable, this hormone-free plumper helps to increase fat storage where it is applied.
Up your cup size with Rodial Boob Job, £125
Syn-Ake
A synthetic peptide that mimics the venom of a Southeast Asian temple viper, it works in a similar fashion to Botox by blocking the neurotransmitters that tell muscles to contract.
Try Peter Thomas Roth's Un-Wrinkle, £22.50.

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