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DrJ
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Sun May 20, 2012 6:51 pm      Reply with quote
Can we get back to fantastic actives? Anybody got any brand new ones?
bethany
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Sun May 20, 2012 8:32 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Can we get back to fantastic actives? Anybody got any brand new ones?


Frankly, unless they are PROVEN, who cares? And "new" seldom has proof.

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DrJ
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Sun May 20, 2012 8:38 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Can we get back to fantastic actives? Anybody got any brand new ones?


Frankly, unless they are PROVEN, who cares? And "new" seldom has proof.


From a purely academic point of view, it is fun to look down the road to things not yet proven, but with great promise. DNA repair stuff, for example.
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Sun May 20, 2012 8:47 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Can we get back to fantastic actives? Anybody got any brand new ones?


Frankly, unless they are PROVEN, who cares? And "new" seldom has proof.


Exactly!! There's too much waffling on this thread about everything under the sun. I just want some CONCRETE evidence that something (anything) works! And I'm totally sick of all the conflicting evidence - isn't there anything which everyone is in agreement about?

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Sun May 20, 2012 8:50 pm      Reply with quote
Not "brand new" but how about Ergothioneine? Estee Lauder seems to like it and uses in a lot in their newer products.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19439218

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Sun May 20, 2012 8:50 pm      Reply with quote
OK, this week I'm fascinated by Omorovicza. What do you think of their Mineral Cosmetology delivery system?

http://www.omorovicza.com/us/mineral_cosmetology.html

I use and love their gentle buffing cleanser.
jom
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Sun May 20, 2012 8:56 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
bethany wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Can we get back to fantastic actives? Anybody got any brand new ones?


Frankly, unless they are PROVEN, who cares? And "new" seldom has proof.


From a purely academic point of view, it is fun to look down the road to things not yet proven, but with great promise. DNA repair stuff, for example.


Sometimes proof can be individual (N=1).
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Mon May 21, 2012 7:25 am      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
OK, this week I'm fascinated by Omorovicza. What do you think of their Mineral Cosmetology delivery system?

http://www.omorovicza.com/us/mineral_cosmetology.html

I use and love their gentle buffing cleanser.


What do you like about these products? The ingredients look OK, but plebian. The talk about minerals as the superhero, but the ingredients are the usual suspect botanicals. The pictures are nice, but the whole mineral story just doesn't add up. One of those "we need a story" things, but the science and products disconnect. How do you bioferment minerals? (basic difference between organic and inorganic chemistry - duh!) You don't make minerals like manganese useful by wrapping in liposomes. That gets you past the stratum corneum, but how do you get it into a cell and then in to the mitochondria? You need carrier peptides, or better yet porphyrins. These are intra-mitochondrial actives, enzyme constituents involved in the SOD1 & SOD2 system. Delivered directly into the epidermis, these non-lanthanoid transitional metals can actually inhibit growth of keratinocyles. Probably not a good anti-aging strategy. There is also a reason why these trace metals are considered toxins and their presence signals poor quality water.
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Mon May 21, 2012 8:46 am      Reply with quote
Well, not exactly new, but I've posted this twice before, without any responding comments. As far as I know, it is the only study showing positive results for improvement of skin elasticity. I am interested in other products shown to impact elasticity and other studies utilizing progesterone as well, if anyone has any (issuing a challenge) LOL

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16120154

BFG
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Mon May 21, 2012 8:49 am      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
Sometimes proof can be individual (N=1).


It's funny you should say this, individual results based on one person are not enough for me, are they for you?

Of course, if the results were my own, that would be different, but using circular logic, that is not likely to happen.

Curious as an expansion of your thoughts on your previous statement.

BFG
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Mon May 21, 2012 9:14 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Well, not exactly new, but I've posted this twice before, without any responding comments. As far as I know, it is the only study showing positive results for improvement of skin elasticity. I am interested in other products shown to impact elasticity and other studies utilizing progesterone as well, if anyone has any (issuing a challenge) LOL

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16120154

BFG


Well controlled study. Do you know what the objective measure of skin elasticity was? Some are better than others. I don't get that journal.
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Mon May 21, 2012 9:18 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
Well, not exactly new, but I've posted this twice before, without any responding comments. As far as I know, it is the only study showing positive results for improvement of skin elasticity. I am interested in other products shown to impact elasticity and other studies utilizing progesterone as well, if anyone has any (issuing a challenge) LOL

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16120154

BFG


Well controlled study. Do you know what the objective measure of skin elasticity was? Some are better than others. I don't get that journal.


"It works for me" is not generalizable proof but I'll bet it sells more product than all the proof we could muster. Its a right vs left brain thing.
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Mon May 21, 2012 11:08 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
jom wrote:
OK, this week I'm fascinated by Omorovicza. What do you think of their Mineral Cosmetology delivery system?

http://www.omorovicza.com/us/mineral_cosmetology.html

I use and love their gentle buffing cleanser.


What do you like about these products? The ingredients look OK, but plebian. The talk about minerals as the superhero, but the ingredients are the usual suspect botanicals. The pictures are nice, but the whole mineral story just doesn't add up. One of those "we need a story" things, but the science and products disconnect. How do you bioferment minerals? (basic difference between organic and inorganic chemistry - duh!) You don't make minerals like manganese useful by wrapping in liposomes. That gets you past the stratum corneum, but how do you get it into a cell and then in to the mitochondria? You need carrier peptides, or better yet porphyrins. These are intra-mitochondrial actives, enzyme constituents involved in the SOD1 & SOD2 system. Delivered directly into the epidermis, these non-lanthanoid transitional metals can actually inhibit growth of keratinocyles. Probably not a good anti-aging strategy. There is also a reason why these trace metals are considered toxins and their presence signals poor quality water.


I wasn't sure what I liked about the products. I think it is the Hungarian mud? I'm kind of interested in the cleansing mask. I was interested in what you would say from a science perspective about "magic" thermal water. I'm not planning to purchase although I do like the buffing cleanser and I think for a scrub it is gentle but effective and has good ingredients in it.
jom
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Mon May 21, 2012 11:13 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
jom wrote:
Sometimes proof can be individual (N=1).


It's funny you should say this, individual results based on one person are not enough for me, are they for you?

Of course, if the results were my own, that would be different, but using circular logic, that is not likely to happen.

Curious as an expansion of your thoughts on your previous statement.

BFG


All I meant is that if for some reason I am attracted enough to a product, for whatever reason, to try it and I see results from it then that is enough proof for me. For example, there is a not a lot of data behind the AnteAGE products but my interest was piqued enough to try it. Now I have found that it removes the milia on my jaw and under my eye. So I'm a believer that this product is actually doing something beneficial at a cellular level.

If I feel like a product is doing something for me but there is scientific data saying that it isn't I think I would trust my own experience.
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Mon May 21, 2012 11:22 am      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
DrJ wrote:
jom wrote:
OK, this week I'm fascinated by Omorovicza. What do you think of their Mineral Cosmetology delivery system?

http://www.omorovicza.com/us/mineral_cosmetology.html

I use and love their gentle buffing cleanser.


What do you like about these products? The ingredients look OK, but plebian. The talk about minerals as the superhero, but the ingredients are the usual suspect botanicals. The pictures are nice, but the whole mineral story just doesn't add up. One of those "we need a story" things, but the science and products disconnect. How do you bioferment minerals? (basic difference between organic and inorganic chemistry - duh!) You don't make minerals like manganese useful by wrapping in liposomes. That gets you past the stratum corneum, but how do you get it into a cell and then in to the mitochondria? You need carrier peptides, or better yet porphyrins. These are intra-mitochondrial actives, enzyme constituents involved in the SOD1 & SOD2 system. Delivered directly into the epidermis, these non-lanthanoid transitional metals can actually inhibit growth of keratinocyles. Probably not a good anti-aging strategy. There is also a reason why these trace metals are considered toxins and their presence signals poor quality water.


I wasn't sure what I liked about the products. I think it is the Hungarian mud? I'm kind of interested in the cleansing mask. I was interested in what you would say from a science perspective about "magic" thermal water. I'm not planning to purchase although I do like the buffing cleanser and I think for a scrub it is gentle but effective and has good ingredients in it.


The only thing "magical" about the thermal water is the mineral content. See above. IK think European spas have been marketing on that basis since long before we knew anything about skin science. Again, makes a nice story, but science it ain't. Fun toi visit one I'll bet, but no miracles (at least since The Plague).
Barefootgirl
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Mon May 21, 2012 2:56 pm      Reply with quote
The study references 3 elasticity parameters, but doesn't provide details regarding the measuring devices. I suppose I could write to them to see if we get an answer.

I am sure that topical hormones aren't nearly as sexy as other emerging actives, but for a certain percentage of the population (a wide percentage, by the way)...they hold a promise worth considering.

BFG
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Mon May 21, 2012 8:07 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
The study references 3 elasticity parameters, but doesn't provide details regarding the measuring devices. I suppose I could write to them to see if we get an answer.

I am sure that topical hormones aren't nearly as sexy as other emerging actives, but for a certain percentage of the population (a wide percentage, by the way)...they hold a promise worth considering.

BFG


I agree, many advantages. But for everyone there is a balance of risks and benefits to consider. Very individual.
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Mon May 21, 2012 8:23 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
Not "brand new" but how about Ergothioneine? Estee Lauder seems to like it and uses in a lot in their newer products.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19439218


Did we address this?

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Tue May 22, 2012 6:04 am      Reply with quote
<But for everyone there is a balance of risks and benefits to consider. Very individual>

Isn't that also true for many of these actives, generally speaking?


BFG
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Tue May 22, 2012 12:03 pm      Reply with quote
Very Happy My 'fantastic actives' when it comes to cleansing are called warm water (INCI: aqua) and Microfiber.

Anything worth while you can use as a toner, makes more sense than rinsing it off or applying it to uncleansed skin.
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Tue May 22, 2012 1:30 pm      Reply with quote
There's a new article at BFT about ingredient manufacturers. Dr. J I expect some hard core investigative reporting from that trade show. You're so lucky, I'd love to go to that show. Have fun!

http://barefacedtruth.com/2012/05/22/skin-care-industry-exposed-shocking-yawn/
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Tue May 22, 2012 4:32 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
There's a new article at BFT about ingredient manufacturers. Dr. J I expect some hard core investigative reporting from that trade show. You're so lucky, I'd love to go to that show. Have fun!

http://barefacedtruth.com/2012/05/22/skin-care-industry-exposed-shocking-yawn/


Wonder if the the people granting press credentials bothered to read the blog first. Shock
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Tue May 22, 2012 4:48 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:



"It works for me" is not generalizable proof but I'll bet it sells more product than all the proof we could muster. Its a right vs left brain thing.


It may definitely work to get some people to buy, but I have read too many raves about products that have worked miracles for others, and don't do squat for me. And usually the raves are talking about the latest/greatest, not the boring stuff that truly works. All this N=1 stuff sounds rather silly to me. Don't get me wrong, I am glad when something works for someone, but 1 person having a good results really doesn't tell us anything.
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Tue May 22, 2012 5:03 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
DrJ wrote:



"It works for me" is not generalizable proof but I'll bet it sells more product than all the proof we could muster. Its a right vs left brain thing.


It may definitely work to get some people to buy, but I have read too many raves about products that have worked miracles for others, and don't do squat for me. And usually the raves are talking about the latest/greatest, not the boring stuff that truly works. All this N=1 stuff sounds rather silly to me. Don't get me wrong, I am glad when something works for someone, but 1 person having a good results really doesn't tell us anything.


You're right, the only person it applies to is the N of 1. But that's what this forum is about, reporting on what works or doesn't work for a particular person and then the readers can decide if it's something they want to try for themselves and hope it works for them too. It's great to have reviews but the only way to know if something will work for you is to try it.
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Tue May 22, 2012 5:12 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
You're right, the only person it applies to is the N of 1. But that's what this forum is about, reporting on what works or doesn't work for a particular person and then the readers can decide if it's something they want to try for themselves and hope it works for them too. It's great to have reviews but the only way to know if something will work for you is to try it.


That's very true - but that's not how medications are developed - they're expected to work on the majority, not the minority. If antibiotics had only worked on a very few people where would they be now - in obscurity. That's why we need to talk about actives that have some kind of proven track record.

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