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DrJ
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Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:31 am      Reply with quote
Colostrum is interesting to clinical nutritionists, less so to derm. scientists. It is a very rich and concentrated source of nutrients, growth factors, immunoglobins, antibodies, vitamins, etc. Very important to newborn mammals in many ways. The value to aging mammallian skin is far less certain.

On the other hand if you are a cytokine scientist, you find a lot to ponder. Rich in interleukins,TNF, chemokines, IGF, TGF- alpha( beta 1 and beta 2) FGF, EGF, factor,PDGF. This pattern is inflammatory, immune stimulating rather than calming, which is good for an immature immune system that needs to be awakened. Not necessarily good for mature skin, however.

One thing it does do is show (once again) how cytokines are used throughout the life span as critical mediators of all sorts of things. You are going to hear the term more and more.

But if colostrum (human, cow, sheep) is good for skin, how much better a cytokine pattern tuned specifically to healing and regeneration. We can learn from nature, but we don't have to apply the primitive lesson as an active. Much better we might exploit that knowledge to create specific "cytokine formulations". Then they become therapeutics for whatever you are trying to achieve at the cellular level. This is the future.

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Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:06 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
You are going to hear the term more and more.


Like we could run away from it with you around? Cool

Lecithin. Dull boring lecithin.

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Barefootgirl
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:00 am      Reply with quote
Is there any science linking oral or topical bovine colostrum to skin rejuvenation?

I could not find any.

BFG
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:15 am      Reply with quote
Any comments regarding this line?:

http://www.dermaviduals.com/english/welcome/

They are soon arriving to our shores here in the US...their products appear to center around
the concept of corneotherapy..which as I understand it, relates to products designed to protect the integrity of the skin barrier via use of liposomes, etc.

What do we think about corneotherapy or liposomes?

BFG
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:18 am      Reply with quote
Before he died, Dr. Kligman, the godfather of Retin A, was preparing his Magnum Opus on the subject of corneotherapy.

Does anyone have access to this?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/abstract

BFG
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:22 am      Reply with quote
I could only find references to wound healing and such. But in the Reluma topic there is a list of the growth factors and cytokines present in Reluma and if you compare that list to an analysis of bovine colostrum there are a LOT of similarities.

Dr J.'s remark that colostrum has an inflammatory profile doesn't seem to add up when you see that colostrum has a good track record as an anti-inflammatory in gut ailments, skin ailments and such.

Just not a sexy ingredient, and so natural you can't patent it (like progesterone).
I like it so far. Really really like it. But that's not evidence.

Edit to add this link, showing colostrum is ANTI inflammatory, and used as such

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095869460600149X
DragoN
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:55 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Any comments regarding this line?:

Lecithin. Dull boring lecithin.

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Barefootgirl
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:47 am      Reply with quote
edited to add: Seems I've had the most success with unsexy products..could mean something.

BFG
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:51 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Seems I've had the most success with unsexy products..could mean something.

Probably more correct than you realize. CosmePsuedoicals get more press and air time. Patented, higher price etc etc. GRAS...you get the idea.

The scientific validation of the efficacy of glycerine as an effective
component of skin care formulations
Glycerol is well known to the cosmetic industry as a humectant that can take up 3 times its weight from a water-saturated atmosphere. It has been used extensively since its discovery in 1799 to improve dry skin conditions, based on empirical observations. Now in an ingenious study, Hora and Verkman have proved conclusively that glycerol is a major determinant of stratum corneum
water retention and has other beneficial effects on stratum corneum biophysical properties [26]. This study used aquaporin-deficient mice, but the results doubtless hold for human skin. In brief, the horny layer of these mice had multiple defects manifested by markedly evaluated TEWL, decreased hydration (dryness) and poor elasticity after being deformed by suction and extremely impaired
barrier repair after tape stripping. After oral intraperitoneal and
topical applications of glycerol, these deficiencies were completely
corrected using quantitative, sophisticated and biophysical methods. Another important finding was that glycerol enhanced the biosynthesis of the physiologic lipids that are responsible for barrier function.


etc.etc.etc.

Ceramides are the latest rage, band aid solution.

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Kassy_A
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:05 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Before he died, Dr. Kligman, the godfather of Retin A, was preparing his Magnum Opus on the subject of corneotherapy.

Does anyone have access to this?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/abstract

BFG


It's free;

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/full

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bethany
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:29 am      Reply with quote
Kassy_A wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
Before he died, Dr. Kligman, the godfather of Retin A, was preparing his Magnum Opus on the subject of corneotherapy.

Does anyone have access to this?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/abstract

BFG


It's free;

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/full


That was quite an interesting article......corneobiology might warrant it's own thread.

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Lotusesther
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Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:30 am      Reply with quote
THANK YOU Kassy and Barefootgirl, this is VERY interesting article!
DrJ
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Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:32 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Kassy_A wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
Before he died, Dr. Kligman, the godfather of Retin A, was preparing his Magnum Opus on the subject of corneotherapy.

Does anyone have access to this?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/abstract

BFG


It's free;

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/full


That was quite an interesting article......corneobiology might warrant it's own thread.


All great stuff. I love the historical references to cytokines key role in stratum corneum biology dating back to 1998. You could build a whole med school or derm. residency seminar on this.

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Barefootgirl
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Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:37 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ,

What is your take on corneobiology and the products advocated by dermaviduals.com?

I realize I am asking you to discuss competing products (theoretically, but actually, not specifically their formulations, rather how they are positioning themselves in the market relative to the science?

Thanks, BFG
DrJ
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Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:44 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
DrJ,

What is your take on corneobiology and the products advocated by dermaviduals.com?

I realize I am asking you to discuss competing products (theoretically, but actually, not specifically their formulations, rather how they are positioning themselves in the market relative to the science?

Thanks, BFG


I just looked at their anti-aging cream. Bunkum. N-2-Isobutyl-2,6,8-decatrienamide. From plants. They pretend it works at the neuromuscular junction. It's an argirilene me-too. Which is a Botox me-too. problem is Botox is injected. Tell me how this cream active gets into the muscle (there are no neuromuscular junctions in the skin, only beneath it). The answer is - it doesn't. The other answer is that if it did it would cause droopy eyelids, since that's the place on the face with the thinnest skin and the most sensitive NM receptors. Total bunkum.

Having pointed this out, we can conclude that they use science words to fool you into thinking they are scientific. They are not. This has nothing to do with real corneobiology. It's a marketing ploy.

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jom
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Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:56 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
DrJ,

What is your take on corneobiology and the products advocated by dermaviduals.com?

I realize I am asking you to discuss competing products (theoretically, but actually, not specifically their formulations, rather how they are positioning themselves in the market relative to the science?

Thanks, BFG


I just looked at their anti-aging cream. Bunkum. N-2-Isobutyl-2,6,8-decatrienamide. From plants. They pretend it works at the neuromuscular junction. It's an argirilene me-too. Which is a Botox me-too. problem is Botox is injected. Tell me how this cream active gets into the muscle (there are no neuromuscular junctions in the skin, only beneath it). The answer is - it doesn't. The other answer is that if it did it would cause droopy eyelids, since that's the place on the face with the thinnest skin and the most sensitive NM receptors. Total bunkum.

Having pointed this out, we can conclude that they use science words to fool you into thinking they are scientific. They are not. This has nothing to do with real corneobiology. It's a marketing ploy.


Dr, J take a look at the Name your Worst Ingredient thread at the new Lancome rose prodcut I posted about. Would you say it falls into the same marketing ploy category?

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45575&start=50
DrJ
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Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:22 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
DrJ,

What is your take on corneobiology and the products advocated by dermaviduals.com?

I realize I am asking you to discuss competing products (theoretically, but actually, not specifically their formulations, rather how they are positioning themselves in the market relative to the science?

Thanks, BFG


I just looked at their anti-aging cream. Bunkum. N-2-Isobutyl-2,6,8-decatrienamide. From plants. They pretend it works at the neuromuscular junction. It's an argirilene me-too. Which is a Botox me-too. problem is Botox is injected. Tell me how this cream active gets into the muscle (there are no neuromuscular junctions in the skin, only beneath it). The answer is - it doesn't. The other answer is that if it did it would cause droopy eyelids, since that's the place on the face with the thinnest skin and the most sensitive NM receptors. Total bunkum.

Having pointed this out, we can conclude that they use science words to fool you into thinking they are scientific. They are not. This has nothing to do with real corneobiology. It's a marketing ploy.


Dr, J take a look at the Name your Worst Ingredient thread at the new Lancome rose prodcut I posted about. Would you say it falls into the same marketing ploy category?

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45575&start=50


I tried to read it, but couldn't stop laughing. It's mythology, not science. That is not how discovery happens in science, I assure you. What does "native cells" mean - every cell in a plant is native, you dolts. They must think the buying public is incredibly stupid.

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jom
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Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:27 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:


I tried to read it, but couldn't stop laughing. It's mythology, not science. That is not how discovery happens in science, I assure you. What does "native cells" mean - every cell in a plant is native, you dolts. They must think the buying public is incredibly stupid.


Worse still, maybe they actually believe it's true! Shock Laughing
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Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:18 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
DrJ wrote:


I tried to read it, but couldn't stop laughing. It's mythology, not science. That is not how discovery happens in science, I assure you. What does "native cells" mean - every cell in a plant is native, you dolts. They must think the buying public is incredibly stupid.


Worse still, maybe they actually believe it's true! Shock Laughing


Nah!

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DragoN
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Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:42 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
I tried to read it, but couldn't stop laughing. It's mythology, not science.

I hear you on that one.

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Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:56 am      Reply with quote
Dr J, are there any other ingredients (other than the retinoid acid and cytokines that you talked about in your article) that improve elastin?
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:26 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Dr J, are there any other ingredients (other than the retinoid acid and cytokines that you talked about in your article) that improve elastin?


Lots of claims. A few years a go there was Ethocyn, an anti-androgen but it seems to have faded. Then there was dill extract (lysyl oxidase or LOX). The list goes on. Thay all seem to fade into obscurity after a while.

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Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:29 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Lots of claims. A few years a go there was Ethocyn, an anti-androgen but it seems to have faded. Then there was dill extract (lysyl oxidase or LOX). The list goes on. Thay all seem to fade into obscurity after a while.


Ok. Thank you. Yes, been there and done that - tried both of those and I could see why they would fade away - they didn't do anything!
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:48 am      Reply with quote
I saw (and linked here) one study that attributed progesterone to improvement in elasticity.

BFG
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:24 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I saw (and linked here) one study that attributed progesterone to improvement in elasticity.

BFG


Progesterone makes sense if you are physiologically low and need topping up from the outside in (or inside out). But it is more "permissive" in the sense that if low you need help, but adding beyond physiologic levels will not give you a pharmacologic effect (on matrix production).

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