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fawnie
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Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:16 pm      Reply with quote
Any sonic/ionic/ultrasound gadgets look good to you? And what do they use with them (conductive gel)?

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Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:01 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Just saw an interesting new dermastamp. I'll scan some pics later.


Anybody interested in lightstim?

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Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:08 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:


Anybody interested in lightstim?


Did you find new information out about it?
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Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:12 pm      Reply with quote
Had meeting with the lightstem CEO. They now have FDA approval for whole face, and get changes within 8 weeks. I'm trying to get a peek at their data in exchange for peek at ours. I like this company. They have been at it for over a decade, and have approached the science with integrity. Today they learned all about BM-MSC also. Maybe some good synergy.

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Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:42 pm      Reply with quote
Given the challenges associated with skin penetration of some actives, I would think that a marriage between an effective serum and an effective gadget would be a match made in cash register heaven.

BFG
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Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:47 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Given the challenges associated with skin penetration of some actives, I would think that a marriage between an effective serum and an effective gadget would be a match made in cash register heaven.

BFG


Also discovered a real gem of a microdermabrasion device.

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Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:51 pm      Reply with quote
Dr J - the AntiAging Lightstim has been a favorite here at EDS for many years. (I have one) and I also have a PMD machine (but haven't touched it yet - still in the box!). I would love to hear what you've been learning about some of these gadgets over at that Expo.

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Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:04 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Had meeting with the lightstem CEO. They now have FDA approval for whole face, and get changes within 8 weeks. I'm trying to get a peek at their data in exchange for peek at ours. I like this company. They have been at it for over a decade, and have approached the science with integrity. Today they learned all about BM-MSC also. Maybe some good synergy.


DrJ, what does FDA approval really means? My understanding is that it only means that the device is safe to use and it does not mean that the device actually produces the kind of results it says it produces... is this true? Thank you
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Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:05 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
Given the challenges associated with skin penetration of some actives, I would think that a marriage between an effective serum and an effective gadget would be a match made in cash register heaven.

BFG


Also discovered a real gem of a microdermabrasion device.


What's the name of this device please?!
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Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:27 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
Dr J - the AntiAging Lightstim has been a favorite here at EDS for many years. (I have one) and I also have a PMD machine (but haven't touched it yet - still in the box!). I would love to hear what you've been learning about some of these gadgets over at that Expo.


No they actually have to perform clinicals and give the FDA all their data. Rigorous. I learned that the FDA will only approve one facial area at a time (which seems odd, but then it is the FDA). I haven't seen the data but know the overall results. They guard it closely. Apparently a lot of competitors trying to do knock off devices.

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Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:31 pm      Reply with quote
daler wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
Given the challenges associated with skin penetration of some actives, I would think that a marriage between an effective serum and an effective gadget would be a match made in cash register heaven.

BFG


Also discovered a real gem of a microdermabrasion device.


What's the name of this device please?!


I'll write some more about this tomorrow.

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Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:17 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Just saw an interesting new dermastamp. I'll scan some pics later.


Anybody interested in lightstim?


So can we take it that you disagree with DragonN's opinion of LED devices?

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Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:59 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
No they actually have to perform clinicals and give the FDA all their data. Rigorous. I learned that the FDA will only approve one facial area at a time (which seems odd, but then it is the FDA). I haven't seen the data but know the overall results. They guard it closely.


This is consistent with what we've seen with Botox and fillers - FDA approval for one section of the face at a time.

While FDA approval can be valuable, keep in mind that often the line between the FDA and the companies they deal with can become *very* thin, especially over time (witness: sunscreen industry). There is no single source.

BFG
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Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:10 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
DrJ wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Just saw an interesting new dermastamp. I'll scan some pics later.


Anybody interested in lightstim?


So can we take it that you disagree with DragonN's opinion of LED devices?
I am trying to get to the data. Meanwhile open mind.

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Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:05 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Keliu wrote:
DrJ wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Just saw an interesting new dermastamp. I'll scan some pics later.


Anybody interested in lightstim?


So can we take it that you disagree with DragonN's opinion of LED devices?
I am trying to get to the data. Meanwhile open mind.


Still haven;t seen that data. But we now have several new devices in hand. Dr George and myself will be trying them out (on patients), looking closely at the science, and doing comprehensive reviews. Any fans (or the opposite) of microdermabrasion out there?

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Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:22 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Still haven;t seen that data. But we now have several new devices in hand. Dr George and myself will be trying them out (on patients), looking closely at the science, and doing comprehensive reviews. Any fans (or the opposite) of microdermabrasion out there?


Microdermabrasion isn't exactly ground-breaking - it's been around for years. Many of us have home-use machines. The PMD system seems to be gaining in popularity lately.

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Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:14 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
DrJ wrote:
Still haven;t seen that data. But we now have several new devices in hand. Dr George and myself will be trying them out (on patients), looking closely at the science, and doing comprehensive reviews. Any fans (or the opposite) of microdermabrasion out there?


Microdermabrasion isn't exactly ground-breaking - it's been around for years. Many of us have home-use machines. The PMD system seems to be gaining in popularity lately.


Agree (and we now have some PMD devices), but what interests us is the way these devices prepare the field to be planted (e.g. with stem cytokines). Looking for synergy. Our question for you guys is how effective have they been on their own. What benefits do you find? How often do you use them?

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Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:06 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:

Agree (and we now have some PMD devices), but what interests us is the way these devices prepare the field to be planted (e.g. with stem cytokines). Looking for synergy. Our question for you guys is how effective have they been on their own. What benefits do you find? How often do you use them?


Exfoliating away dead kin cells has always made sense to me - although there are those who advise against it.

If you are looking for methods to enhance penetration, I would think that a cosmetic dermaroller would be of interest.

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Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:09 am      Reply with quote
I remain primarily interested in home use devices that employ sonophoresis. To my knowledge, none are currently proven effective except as claimed by their manufacturer(s).

BFG
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Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:29 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I remain primarily interested in home use devices that employ sonophoresis. To my knowledge, none are currently proven effective except as claimed by their manufacturer(s).

BFG


BFG, do you mean effective on their own,or as enhancers of penetration of actives? There is lots of evidence for their use in transdermal drug delivery. I am fascinated by the combined approach of electrophoresis + sonophopresis. Very good for proteins.

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Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:25 am      Reply with quote
Sonophoresis in combination with topical actives for increased penetration.

You and Dr. S could team up to market a combination of actives & gadgets...(all shown effective of course Bad Grin )

You could then offer that package at a discount to the toughest skincare consumers on the planet (here) and we could vouch for you to the masses.

Laughing I am a dreamer, eh?

BFG
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Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:41 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I remain primarily interested in home use devices that employ sonophoresis. To my knowledge, none are currently proven effective except as claimed by their manufacturer(s).

BFG


Wasn't it DrS who said that home-use sonophoresis devices weren't effective? That seems like a bit of a sweeping statement. Although there are allot of cheap Chinese manufacturered devices on the market - and who knows how to tell whether they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. I have a Bellaire and that company appears to be reputable - but who knows? I think that it's probably the case that most home-use devices aren't as effective as professional salon equipment - but you do get the ability to use them with frequency, so maybe that makes up for less power.

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Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:41 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
I remain primarily interested in home use devices that employ sonophoresis. To my knowledge, none are currently proven effective except as claimed by their manufacturer(s).

BFG


Wasn't it DrS who said that home-use sonophoresis devices weren't effective? That seems like a bit of a sweeping statement. Although there are allot of cheap Chinese manufacturered devices on the market - and who knows how to tell whether they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. I have a Bellaire and that company appears to be reputable - but who knows? I think that it's probably the case that most home-use devices aren't as effective as professional salon equipment - but you do get the ability to use them with frequency, so maybe that makes up for less power.


Wasn't me. But again, we do need to ask: effective for what? As a method of driving actives deeper through cavitation waves, as a skin tightener, or as a collagenogenic? or all three? Shall we examine the evidence?

Dermatol Surg. 2012 Jan;38(1):20-7.

Multiple pass ultrasound tightening of skin laxity of the lower face and neck.

BACKGROUND:

Skin laxity is a common complaint of patients who request skin rejuvenation. Radiofrequency and infrared light are widely used for nonablative treatment of skin laxity. Intense focused ultrasound (IFUS) has been investigated as a tool for the treatment of solid benign and malignant tumors for many decades but is only now beginning to emerge as a potential noninvasive alternative to conventional nonablative therapy.

OBJECTIVES:

To evaluate the efficacy of IFUS for the treatment of face and neck laxity.

METHODS:

Twelve female volunteers were enrolled in the study, and 10 were ultimately evaluated. The device under investigation was an IFUS. Areas treated included the face and neck. For treatment, the 4-MHz, 4.5-mm probe was used first, followed by the 7-MHz, 3.0-mm probe. Two blinded, experienced clinicians evaluated paired pretreatment and post-treatment (day 90) photographs. Patient self-assessments were also obtained.

RESULTS:

On the first primary outcome measure, two blinded clinicians felt that 8 of 10 subjects (80%) showed clinical improvement 90 days after treatment. Nine of 10 subjects (90%) reported subjective improvement.

CONCLUSIONS:

IFUS has many advantages for skin tightening.

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Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:56 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ - you have a habit of not posting the links and crediting the source of your information! In addition, the study you quoted appears to be referring to Radio Frequency which I thought was different to Ultrasound. Radio Frequency devices heat the dermis to damage and stimulate collagen and are targeted at tightening the skin, not product penetration - The STOP is an example of a home-use RF device.

Also - do you have any data on whether 1 or 3 mhz ultrasound should be used on the face - their appears to be some confusion about this. But this study is talking about 4 and 7 mhz. I'm confused! But I'm not sure whether we're comparing apples with apples.

It was Dr. Setterfield who made the comment about the ineffectiveness of home use ultrasound devices. I believe he was commenting in relation to their ability to penetrate topicals into the skin - especially in comparison to needling. BFG - I think you'd be the one to clarify this.

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Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:24 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ - you might have to resort to grave-robbing. Read this:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2012/06/13/3524205.htm

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