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Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:39 pm |
Main point:
the amount of absorbed caffeine was nearly independent of the encapsulation efficiency and the vesicle size, but increased with the increase of phosphatidylcholine concentration. These results indicated that phosphatidylcholine could act as a penetration enhancer, irrespective of its presence in vesicular form or solubilized form.
i.e. Penetration of active was not dependent on the number , size, nor concentration of vesicles formed. It was solely dependent on PC.[however, there would have been some degree of formation regardless]
Egg lecithin is an excellent choice. Combined with Kinetin, more so. Due to the nature of lecithin and it's composition and charge, it has the capacity to disrupt the lipid bilayer of your own dermis , there by increasing penetration of actives. Further to which, when in solution it will naturally form liposomes. Egg lecithin is more stable to oxidation than is soy...but less stable in emulsion, however the addition of Poly 80 dependent on the amt Egg lecithin used will stabilize it. Lovely powder and easy to work with, if you don't mind the scent. Gorgeous on the skin. I rather like it in my Chrysalis Eye serum.
What are you making with egg lecithin?
Re: copper peptides. CuCl2 is effective. Too effective it can be. It is also cytotoxic. CuGHK also, I prefer CuGHK as it has less potential for problems.
I make my own peptide serum and liposome it.
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Introducing GHK-Cu Copper Peptide Serum With EGF! ... List of benefits:
• Increase the production of stem cells (promotes new cell growth) |
Fascinating....isn't it? Ranks right along with the Nano Au and ZnO for anti wrinkle protection...the ZnO, sure, the Au? Based on what? Not to mention pearl powder. I'll stick with Maca.
SLN is also quite interesting,the cytokine encapsulation, but from the DIY stand point, not feasible. PC circumvents that with a unique payload of its own.
You'll find I am in agreement with DrJ and Dr. Pickart.
http://barefacedtruth.com/2011/12/26/renovage-induces-heat-shock-proteins-not-telomerase-this-not-dna-repair/
And in regards to EGF, similarly. ErbB is a receptor of EGF and one that is problematic in cancer signalling cascades. A great deal of research is based on how to block it.
Truth Matters....but it isn't very popular. |
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:28 am |
This is something people wouldn't easily figure out on their own. It sounds pretty scary though. |
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:28 am |
Lacy53 wrote: |
NCN wrote: |
Hi everyone, I’d like to answer a couple of your questions for you......Dr. Pickart is not talking about my CP Accelerator. He's referring to products that have copper peptide in them; there is no Copper Peptide in CP Accelerator. This is a quote from the Skin Biology post you’re discussing, “The products use a mixture of GHK-copper and other types of peptides that increase collagen in the skin.” |
I understand your CP Accelerator is a stand-alone product, but don't you also say it can be used over GHK-Cu? I know many people on this forum layer the two products (and I assumed it was at least okayed, if not outright recommended, by you). I don't see any difference between having GHK-Cu and other peptides applied as one product or layered (two separate products). Your CP Accelerator does contain peptides:
Organic Aloe Juice, Organic Coconut Oil, 15% Matrixyl 3000, 5% DMAE Bitartrate, Oat Beta Glucan, Pearl Powder, Emulsifying Wax NF, Palm Stearic Acid, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Organic Jojoba Oil, Meadowfoam Seed Oil, Avocado Oil, Witch Hazel, Vitamin E, Acetyl Tetrapeptide-9, Matrixyl Synthe’6, Phenoxyethanol, MSM, Xanthan Gum, Organic Black Willowbark Extract, Mannan, Neem Oil, Rosemary, Carrot Seed Oil, Tetrasodium EDTA, Citric Acid.
Would you care to comment on this post by Dr. Pickart?
Mixing EGF and copper peptides is a bad idea. Very little EGF can penetrate the skin. I can find no credible evidence that EGF in cosmetics actually improves skin.
If enough EGF penetrated the skin to have an effect, then there are the toxicity problems of EGF. Wound healing studies with EGF were stopped because the EGF built up in the blood stream. EGF causes serious hair loss. The injection of 2 milligrams of EGF into sheep causes all the wool hair to fall out within a week.
http://healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4570023352/m/5361080436
Your new GHK-Cu Copper Peptide Serum With EGF ingredients list:
Purified Water, Aloe Extract, GHK-Cu Copper Tripeptide, Licorice, Collagen, Sea Kelp Bioferment, Bifida Ferment Lysate, Beta-Glucan, EGF (Epidermal Growth Factor), Leuconostoc/Radish Root (natural preservative). |
Yes, I say that CP Accelerator can be used over GHK-Cu or any copper peptide for that matter; I use both products myself and have been for over 5 years. Like I said in my last post, Dr. Pickart and I do not agree on everything and this is definitely one of them……in fact, if you look hard enough, you may find that he often contradicts himself (I think it was already mentioned on this thread). In fact, Dr. Pickart says that Retin-A also triggers the production of TGF-bea-1, but according to him that’s okay because, “But the CPs suppress TGF-beta-1. This may be adequate since many people use CPs and Retin-A together with good results”.
I do believe that Dr. Pickart has never actually tested mixing Copper Peptide with EGF. He, like Dr. J, is merely copying what he has found on the internet without actually testing it himself. In all the years I’ve been using and working with EGF (at the MedSpa and in the past year with my formula), I have never known anyone, including myself, to lose one hair over it….. |
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:16 am |
http://theoncologist.alphamedpress.org/content/8/5/496.full
The Molecular Perspective: Epidermal Growth Factor
David S. Goodsell
David S. Goodsell, Ph.D., Associate Professor, The Scripps Research Institute, Department of Molecular Biology, 10550 North Torrey Pines Road, La Jolla, California 92037, USA. Telephone: 858-784-2839; Fax: 858-784-2860; e-mail: goodsell@scripps.edu Website: http://www.scripps.edu/pub/goodsell
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Many aggressive types of cancer have overactive signaling through the epidermal growth factor system. They either create excess amounts of the growth factor or develop mutant forms of the receptor that are unnaturally active. Researchers are attacking this problem by blocking the action of the receptor, attacking it at both ends. On the outside, we can treat the cancer cells with antibodies that block the binding of the growth factor. On the inside, we can use drugs that block the active site of the kinase, stopping it from transmitting the message when EGF binds. The growing body of structural and genomic data on these receptors has streamlined the discovery of these drugs, which are among the first of anticancer drugs to be developed by rational drug design methods. |
Lotusesther
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This is something people wouldn't easily figure out on their own. It sounds pretty scary though. |
....tend to agree. Yak meat tenderizer starting to look better all the time... |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:31 am |
But he's not talking about EGF as a skin care product DragonN....
Both Dr. Huber and Dr. Todorov aren't crazy about EGF, but I seriously doubt they have actually tested it either. They both say the particle size is too large to enter the body to ever cause cancer. They also say it's too large to enter the dermis too.....regardless of what others say, I have seen EGF make people's skin gorgeous and will continue to use it. I do think that after all of this discussion, that I'll give my clients the choice of using the new GHK-Cu CP Serum with or without EGF. So thank you all for your input - I'm on it! |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:53 pm |
NCN wrote: |
But he's not talking about EGF as a skin care product DragonN....
Both Dr. Huber and Dr. Todorov aren't crazy about EGF, but I seriously doubt they have actually tested it either. They both say the particle size is too large to enter the body to ever cause cancer. They also say it's too large to enter the dermis too.....regardless of what others say, I have seen EGF make people's skin gorgeous and will continue to use it. I do think that after all of this discussion, that I'll give my clients the choice of using the new GHK-Cu CP Serum with or without EGF. So thank you all for your input - I'm on it! |
Penetration of EGF is certainly possible. It was shown by Dr Stan Cohen (Nobel prize guy) back in 1970 that EGF is actually only 6500 m.w. , not very big at all. It has a carrier protein that is much bigger, but I imagine the source is using the more purified form. There are many penetration enhancers that help to move molecules into and through the epidermis. If it didn't absorb, you wouldn't be seeing the plumping you think is gorgeous -- most of that occurs in the dermis. Plus it's "receptor chemistry" so you really need very little to get in to have an effect. But it doesn't need to penetrate to accelerate any early cancers that might crop up (as they do in 50% of all folks above 50) -- most arise in the epidermis itself. I have personally seen hair loss in humans using EGF topically. The follicles die as the skin plumps around them and blocks them (seems to not cause growth at the follicle). Women will notice a receding hairline at the temples.
You're welcome for my input. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:15 pm |
Here is another Nobel Prize winner in 1986....I just wonder how we are to know which experts to believe?
In 1986, Stanley Cohen received the Nobel Prize for his work elucidating the role of the Epidermal Growth Factor (EGF) in the regulation of cell growth and development. EGF is a growth factor that plays an important role in the regulation of cell growth, cell proliferation and differentiation. As with all growth factors, it is a small protein. EGF acts by binding to specific receptors on the cell surface, starting a cascade of very organized molecular events, including increased intracellular calcium concentration, energy production and protein synthesis.
This is one the specialty proteins made by Skin Actives Scientific using biotechnology. Biotechnology is a short name for an array of sophisticated methods that allow scientists to make large amounts of a single protein, nearly pure and fully active, at a fraction of the cost of extracting it from the original source material. Please note that our growth factors are sold for use in cosmetics only.
Please ask us about wholesale pricing as well as custom protein development.
What is a growth factor? Growth factors, a.k.a. citokines, are naturally occuring proteins capable of stimulating cellular proliferation and cellular differentiation. Growth factors bind to specific receptors on the cell surfaces and are important for the regulation a variety of cellular processes. Among the practical uses of EGF are its use in accelerating healing of skin and cornea. EGF was the first growth factor to be discovered and studied, but many more factors have been found since then. These growth factors differ in size and structure, affecting different receptors and types of cells as a consequence, and causing various effects on the target cells.
http://www.skinactives.com/Epidermal-Growth-Factor-BT-EGF.html
I know molecular weight is not mentioned, so I am just wishing to actually understand more on this subject, Thank You. |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:42 pm |
Twenty-five years ago on Dec. 10, King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden presented the Nobel Prize to Vanderbilt biochemist Stanley Cohen for his discovery and characterization of epidermal growth factor (EGF) and its receptor.
At the time, the implications of Cohen’s discovery two decades earlier had barely begun to be realized.
Today the EGF receptor is the target for a growing number of cancer drugs. Families of EGF-like proteins and their receptors also are being studied for their potential role in preventing heart failure and bowel damage, slowing the progression of kidney disease, and promoting liver regeneration.
More on link.....
http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2011/12/stanley-cohen-nobel-prize/ |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:19 pm |
DM - I wonder what Dr Hannah Sivak's opinion is on EGF - presumably, it's good or she wouldn't incorporate it in her serums. At least she's a bio-chemist with an extensive background in skincare science. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:28 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
DM - I wonder what Dr Hannah Sivak's opinion is on EGF - presumably, it's good or she wouldn't incorporate it in her serums. At least she's a bio-chemist with an extensive background in skincare science. |
It does not say on the site who wrote what I quoted in my first post, however as you pointed out she is a biochemist, phd. I would think she would not sell it for DIY purposes as well as using it in her own ready-made products if she had concerns about using it.
I am also wondering how this can help so dramatically as is cited in the article on cancer, yet also be a concern in causing the same?
Also a note the second article was from 2011, so just a year ago if that. |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:34 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
I am also wondering how this can help so dramatically as is cited in the article on cancer, yet also be a concern in causing the same? |
But doesn't everything! |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:41 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
DarkMoon wrote: |
I am also wondering how this can help so dramatically as is cited in the article on cancer, yet also be a concern in causing the same? |
But doesn't everything! |
LOL...Yes if you read enough and listen to the news! |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:01 pm |
Quote: |
Both Dr. Huber and Dr. Todorov aren't crazy about EGF, |
For good reason.
Epidermal Growth Factor Receptor Inhibitor–Associated Cutaneous Toxicities: An Evolving Paradigm in Clinical Management
Thomas J. Lynch Jr.a,
Ed S. Kimb,
Beth Eabyc,
Jody Gareyb,
Dennis P. Westd and
Mario E. Lacoutured
+ Author Affiliations
aMassachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts, USA;
bMD Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, Texas, USA;
cUniversity of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA;
dNorthwestern University, Chicago, Illinois, USA
http://theoncologist.alphamedpress.org/content/12/5/610.full
Correspondence: Thomas J. Lynch, Jr., M.D., Massachusetts General Hospital, 55 Fruit Street, YAW7, Boston, Massachusetts 02114, USA. Telephone: 617-726-2408; Fax: 617-724-1137; e-mail: tlynch@partners.org
Received March 9, 2007.
Accepted April 18, 2007.
Quote: |
Aberrant cell signaling, mediated through EGFR, plays a pivotal role in tumorigenesis and disease progression. EGFR belongs to the human epidermal growth factor receptor (HER) family, a group of four known transmembrane receptors, which also includes HER-2/neu, HER-3, and HER-4 [9]. Activation of EGFR by ligands, such as EGF, leads to receptor dimerization (either with a second EGFR or with another member of the HER family) and activation of intrinsic tyrosine kinase (TK) activity [10]. This initiates downstream signaling pathways, including the mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) and the phosphatidylinositol-3-OH kinase (PI3K/Akt) pathway, modulating gene transcription and protein translation and ultimately stimulating tumor-cell proliferation, migration, adhesion, and angiogenesis, and inhibiting apoptosis [11]. EGFR is dysregulated in various tumor types [12–14], and its overexpression has been correlated with disease progression, poor prognosis, and a reduced sensitivity to chemotherapy [15, 16]. In NSCLC, amplification and mutation of EGFR have been implicated as major mechanisms in the pathogenesis of lung tumors [17, 18]. |
What is cancer? In plain English as DrJ mentioned previously, uncontrolled mitosis. The same concept that is being sold as rejuvenating your hide and mine. Which is to a point, the plan, however there are some serious drawbacks as well.
Problem:
1) Over expression of certain receptors may cause a cancer in some people where may not have occurred had EGF not been introduced into the system at higher than normal levels.
2)Over expression/ presence of EGF can potentially lead to development of mutant receptors which will lead one down the path of tumor genesis.
So which came first? The chicken or the egg?
"Under the corporate sun, there is nothing sacred."
Dr. Li , Cancer researcher.
Not my problem. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:02 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
Keliu wrote: |
DarkMoon wrote: |
I am also wondering how this can help so dramatically as is cited in the article on cancer, yet also be a concern in causing the same? |
But doesn't everything! |
LOL...Yes if you read enough and listen to the news! |
All the significant work involving EGF & cancer treatment has to do with blocking the EGF receptor. Making extra EGF is how many cancers grow and spread. In fact, it is the receptor work that cinched the Nobel for Stan Cohen. So, its all entirely consistent. No conflicting story here. EGF accelerates cancer, but blocking EGF receptors takes that ability away. So, is it safe to put unopposed EGF on aging skin? If you want to act like a cancer cell, it makes sense. If you ask Dr. Cohen he will tell you to do just the opposite. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:12 pm |
DrJ wrote: |
DarkMoon wrote: |
Keliu wrote: |
DarkMoon wrote: |
I am also wondering how this can help so dramatically as is cited in the article on cancer, yet also be a concern in causing the same? |
But doesn't everything! |
LOL...Yes if you read enough and listen to the news! |
All the significant work involving EGF & cancer treatment has to do with blocking the EGF receptor. Making extra EGF is how many cancers grow and spread. In fact, it is the receptor work that cinched the Nobel for Stan Cohen. So, its all entirely consistent. No conflicting story here. EGF accelerates cancer, but blocking EGF receptors takes that ability away. So, is it safe to put unopposed EGF on aging skin? If you want to act like a cancer cell, it makes sense. If you ask Dr. Cohen he will tell you to do just the opposite. |
Today the EGF receptor is the target for a growing number of cancer drugs. Families of EGF-like proteins and their receptors also are being studied for their potential role in preventing heart failure and bowel damage, slowing the progression of kidney disease, and promoting liver regeneration.
The highlighted red text is what seems contradictory to what you have posted, I am not arguing, just honestly attempting to understand. Are you saying they are studying the EGF and receptors as a cause of the above conditions? |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:13 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
Today the EGF receptor is the target for a growing number of cancer drugs. Families of EGF-like proteins and their receptors also are being studied for their potential role in preventing heart failure and bowel damage, slowing the progression of kidney disease, and promoting liver regeneration.
The highlighted red text is what seems contradictory to what you have posted, I am not arguing, just honestly attempting to understand. Are you saying they are studying the EGF and receptors as a cause of the above conditions? |
No contradiction. The EGF-EGFR (receptor) connection is key to certain anti-cancer drugs. In the context of cancer, tissue growth can be a killer. In other diseases, the opposite is true ... organs suffer because there is too little tissue. Hearts weakened by too little muscle. Liver that has been damaged, These tissues need regeneration, and EGF is one of many cytokines that can assist. Note also the word "family" in your red text. I am writing an article right now that focuses on the role of mesenchymal stem cells as regenerative powerhouses that secrete families of chemicals, some of which are growth factors. I recently posted one on heart attacks. So, to help with the confusion, just know that the same biochemical can be good in some contexts, bad in others. In fact, EGF can be good for skin, but not when presented alone; it has to be balanced by other cytokines to prevent the wrong kind of growth from occurring. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:00 pm |
DrJ wrote: |
In fact, EGF can be good for skin, but not when presented alone; it has to be balanced by other cytokines to prevent the wrong kind of growth from occurring. |
It's not only the question of 'balance', it is also the over expression of EGF that has the capacity to cause/ trigger mutations in the receptors themselves.
Nothing is "perfect", however with this one, it is far less than anywhere near being moderately sane to utilize in skin care. It is a Known.
The unknown, which remains the saving grace, is the rate of penetration. Fortunately, relatively dismal. Either way, essentially useless or potentially quite dangerous.
Lose Lose scenario. |
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Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:36 am |
I am a little confused... Is EGF working the same way as the ingredient renovage? I understand that Dr John said that 'renovage' is also dangerous in case of already present (skin)cancer because it will speed up the spreading, as it multiplies (any) cells. |
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Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:23 am |
Keliu wrote: |
DM - I wonder what Dr Hannah Sivak's opinion is on EGF - presumably, it's good or she wouldn't incorporate it in her serums. At least she's a bio-chemist with an extensive background in skincare science. |
I am not certain a link to the forum will work, but giving it a try, she has some conflicting opinions both about EGF and Stem Cell "media" from others in the same field?
http://www.skinactives.com/Skin-Actives-Discussion-Forum.html |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:36 am |
DarkMoon wrote: |
Keliu wrote: |
DM - I wonder what Dr Hannah Sivak's opinion is on EGF - presumably, it's good or she wouldn't incorporate it in her serums. At least she's a bio-chemist with an extensive background in skincare science. |
I am not certain a link to the forum will work, but giving it a try, she has some conflicting opinions both about EGF and Stem Cell "media" from others in the same field?
http://www.skinactives.com/Skin-Actives-Discussion-Forum.html |
O.K. just goes to the forum main page, so here is the gist.....
Member:
Hi forum,
I'm a newbie so excuse me if my query has already been addressed. (I searched beforehand to no avail)
"Stemulation" is a product that Demi Moore uses (read in an interview, she looks fantastic!) $350 15ml I think, its CRAZY priced.
SERUM INGREDIENTS: Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe Vera) Leaf Juice, HMSC Cultured Medi(stem cell extract) Glycerin, Dipeptide Diaminobutyroyl Benzylamide Diacetate, Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Beta Glucan, Dimethicone, Vitus Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil, Myristoyl Pentapeptide-8, Niacinamide, Stearyl Alcohol, Aribica Extract, Tocopherol, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Vaccinium Myrtillus (Bilberry) Extract, Silybum Marianum (Milk Thistle) Extract, Pinus Pinaster Bark (Maritime Pine) Extract, Ginkgo Biloba Extract, Curcuma longa (Turmeric) Root Extract, Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Glyceryl Stearate, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Xanthan Gum, Disodium EDTA, Fragrance (Parfum), Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin.
Is it just as bad as tns, amokine etc etc?
In forum & email I've been informed by Hannah that "stem cell" products have nasty stuff & false advertising.
Could someone give me a deep/scientific explanation as to why its so bad?
Does it really have no positive affects whatsoever?
I googled but its all so positive.
Also I'm interested in EGF.
Googling that I've become unclear if it can cause mutation & cancer or it helps to prevent it. Read it does both...weird.
Thanks so much for not only providing raw inexpensive products but also for sharing knowledge.
Sincerely, Thank-you
Hannah:
Yes, as bad as TNS, same idea, the use of discarded cell culture media with all the yucky stuff in it. If you want growth factors, buy EGF, don't buy discarded media that MAY contain EGF but contains, for sure, stuff the cells are getting rid of. Plus, perhaps, a virus or two.
And don't believe everything you read. Demi Moore is paid a lot of money to SAY she is using the product.
Posts from Sept. 2011 |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:14 am |
I could only find this:
http://www.skinactives.com/Skin-Actives-Discussion-Forum.html
Bushy was using Stemulation before she changed to the ISCO Lifeline product. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:39 am |
LOL your link did just what mine did, went to the main page of the forum! I take it Hannah does not allow links directly to a post, or maybe the way the forum software works?
I searched EGF safety within the forum to get my above post.
I believe you are correct that Bushy was using Stemulation and switched to ISCO a while back, she posted that she has stuck with it and is very satisfied, no plans to stop using the Lifeline as I recall. |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:56 am |
Do I understand it right that the waste from a medical lab is being sold as an active? |
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Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:00 am |
Lotusesther wrote: |
Do I understand it right that the waste from a medical lab is being sold as an active? |
I "think" she is referring to the waste that live stem cells excrete into the media, I may be mistaken? It all has an EWWW factor to me thinking about it either way.(possibly both)? |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:33 am |
That's my understanding of the stem cell serums (such as the Osmosis one) - that they use the media which has been used to grow the stem cells in. The stem cells having leached "whatever" into the media. But didn't the representative from ISCO say that they weren't using this - what they are using I don't know.
Also, hasn't the issue of cancer been raised regarding the stimulation of stem cells also? I need DrJ's input on that one. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:29 am |
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