Cellese AnteAGE System: general discussion
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free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:01 am

WhiteWolf wrote:

Dr. J, don't even waste your time on that forum, not worth it. It's like we're being challenged to a "face off". Laughing

I bought some DIY actives before but I don't have tons of time on my hands and I also appreciate science and advancement in medicine. I also think $280 is not outrageous considering other brands like Perricone, SKII, etc.

I thought that was one of the strangest criticisms over on skincaretalk. It's like if we don't DIY there's something wrong with us. Some people just don't have the interest or competency or time to DIY and would prefer to have others make our concoctions for us and we don't mind paying for them. It's my money I'll do what I want with it.

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:11 am

DrJ wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

Thanks so much Dr J for answering my questions... Will you indulge me just once more.. Laughing

Soooo, could you please tell me what additional improvements I could expect to achieve by adding your serums to my regime?

I'm particularly interested in it's ability (or lack there of) in skin firming.

Thanks again DrJ.

Kassy asks about firming. The opposite of sagging. Let's also differentiate from "toning" which is often just a euphemism for superficial tightening by squeezing out blood & serum (which caffeine does quite well).

Of course, much depends on your definition of sagging, and its degrees. I have written elsewhere on the topic of firming of sagging skin (now where did I put that???) in terms of its underlying anatomy and physiology.

When aging advances, the skin layers become less and less attached to the underlying musculature.. At it's core, this is the stuff of plastic surgery.

Volume is lost (decreased fat & dermal collagen/elastin). Collagen changes in quality, and becomes cross linked. Skin can sag and become redundant when volume is lost.
This is the realm of fillers. But we are now able to address this with anti-aging forumulations.

In recent years we have advanced our knowledge of the various layers of skin (epidermis, dermis, subdermis) and how they interconnect. Turns out there is some dynamic "sliding" that goes on. Somewhat fluid rather than rigid solid. Youj will hear morew about "rete pegs" and other dermal-epidermal interface factors in the near future.

In terms of what a topical product can do, let's focus first on the underlying environment. If your skin is inflammed or under antioxidant stress, it will continue the aging decline in volume and those collagen cross links will increase. So dealing with the stresses is a start (antioxidants, sunscreens, nutrients).

Next lets look at the cytokine environment.If we are responding to signals for intrinsic and extrinsic aging with an "aged" cytokine pattern (inflammatory, patchwork healing) we are going to continue to lose quality matrix (especially elasticity). If we change that around (growth oriented, anti-inflammatory, juvenile skin pattern cytokines) we can both tear down old tired matrix and build new fresh matrix.

What are other factors that can increase volume (and thereby decrease sagging)? Retinols. Carnosine. Key anabolic peptides. Strong evidence for isoflavones, especially in post-menopausal women, even if on HRT.

We talk about the 3rd dimension in facial aesthetics. There is a surgical, filler, and matrix regeneration component. Each individual needs to explore which of these, or combination, is right for them.

Hope this helps.

You would make a great attorney... Laughing

I just wanted to know if your product addresses slack skin at all... Here's the thing, I already have great skin, but wonder what your products can do for the foundation (if anything?)

When I hear words like "stem cells", it suggests to me it should have great goings on at the cellular level... But then my next thought tells me if that were the case it would not be sold as a cosmetic skin serum, but would require a RX...

I just simply want to know exactly what can be achieved by this quite expensive team of cosmetic serums? (Perricone & Creme de la Mer come to mind as disappointments to the majority of reviews I read.. So what does yours offer to set it apart?) What exactly do the "stem cells" do (or not) to the skins foundation?

I'm not decrepit yet... Laughing

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:13 am

jom wrote:

Lotusesther wrote:

On second thought, there is no ingredient list. The one that was posted as such is faulty (no essential oils), the one about the accelerator is faulty (states cytokines where the key ingredient list on the website does not say that for the accelerator) as well. The website gives a list of key ingredients, which isn't the same as an ingredient list is it?

The AnteAGE website lists the full ingredients. Dr. J - you need to take the Essential Oils off the list!

http://anteage.com/key-ingredients/

http://anteage.com/key-ingredients-in-anteage-accelerator/

Jom, that is not an ingredients list, it lists key ingredients. As such this list doesn't have to comply with FDA standards (like stating ingredients in order of concentration).

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:17 am

Lotusesther wrote:

jom wrote:

Lotusesther wrote:

On second thought, there is no ingredient list. The one that was posted as such is faulty (no essential oils), the one about the accelerator is faulty (states cytokines where the key ingredient list on the website does not say that for the accelerator) as well. The website gives a list of key ingredients, which isn't the same as an ingredient list is it?

The AnteAGE website lists the full ingredients. Dr. J - you need to take the Essential Oils off the list!

http://anteage.com/key-ingredients/

http://anteage.com/key-ingredients-in-anteage-accelerator/

Jom, that is not an ingredients list, it lists key ingredients. As such this list doesn't have to comply with FDA standards (like stating ingredients in order of concentration).

If you look to the side of the serum link and at the bottom of the accelerator link you will see the same list of ingredients that has been posted on the forum. I believe it is a full ingredients list. Except the essential oils need to be taken off. It says label ingredients on it.

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:35 am

Thank you Jom. When I count the number of ingredients in the accelerator I come to 61 ingredients, is that correct?

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:42 am

Lotusesther wrote:

Thank you Jom. When I count the number of ingredients in the accelerator I come to 61 ingredients, is that correct?

I got 56.

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:56 am

Here are the ingredient lists he posted on the old thread, now minus the essential oils: (I can't swear it has not changed?)

Here are the ingredients for the two products:

Serum

Ingredients: Mesenchymal Stem
Cell Cytokines, Water (Aqua),
Essential Oils, Palmitoyl
Oligopeptide, Niacinamide
(Vitamin B3), Palmitoyl
Tetrapeptide-7, PPG-3 Benzyl
Myristate, Dimethyl Isosorbide,
Carnosine, Hydrolyzed Myrtus
Communis (True Myrtle) Leaf
Extract, Polyacrylate-13, Camellia
Sinensis (Green Tea) Leaf
Extract, Maltodextrin, Ilex
Paraguariensis (Paraguay) Leaf
(Yerba Mate) Extract, Cetearyl
Ethylhexanoate, Polyisobutene,
Phenoxyethanol (Preservative),
Caprylyl Glycol (Naturally
Derived Preservative),
Polysorbate-20 (Plant Derived),
Chlorphenesin, Tetrasodium
EDTA, Citric Acid (Naturally
Derived)

Accelerator

Ingredients: Mesenchymal Stem Cell
Cytokines, Water (Aqua), Glycerin
(Plant Derived), C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate,
PPG-3 Benzyl Myristate, Carthamus
Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil, Alcohol,
Cetearyl Alcohol (Plant Derived),
Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E
Acetate), Polysorbate-20 (Plant
Derived), Cetearyl Glucoside,
Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate (Vitamin C
Ester), Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba)
Seed Oil, Limnanthes Alba
(Meadowfoam) Seed Oil, Essential Oils,
Dimethyl Isosorbide, Butylene Glycol,
Polysorbate-60 (Plant Derived),
Glyceryl Stearate (Plant Derived),
Lecithin, Hydroxyethyl
Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyl Dimethyl
Taurate Copolymer, Soybean
Glycerides, Arachidyl Alcohol, Soy
Isoflavones, Phenoxyethanol
(Preservative), Helianthus Annuus
(Hybrid Sunflower) Oil, Butyrospermum
Parkii (Shea Butter) Fruit, Bisabolol,
Arbutin, Caprylyl Glycol (Naturally
Derived Preservative), Behenyl Alcohol,
Lonicera Japonica (Honeysuckle)
Extract (Natural Preservative),
Foeniculum Vulgare (Fennel) Fruit
Extract, Camellia Oleifera (ORGANIC)
Black Tea, Algae (Seaweed) Extract,
Xanthan Gum (Natural Thickener),
Saccharum Officinarum (Sugar Cane),
Chlorphenesin, Squalane (Plant
Derived), Retinol (Vitamin A),
Ubiquinone (Coenzyme Q10),
Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B5), Allantoin
(Comfrey Root Derived), Citrus Medica
Limonum (Lemon) Fruit Extract, Citrus
Aurantium Dulcis (Sweet Neroli
Orange) Fruit, Tetrasodium EDTA,
Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Juice,
Sodium Hyaluronate, Camellia Sinensis
(Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Arachidyl
Glucoside, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed
Extract, Salix Alba (Willow) Bark
Extract, Vaccinium Myrtillus (Bilberry)
Extract, Phyllanthus Emblica (Amla)
Extract, Thioctic Acid (a-Lipoic Acid),
Sodium Hydroxide (pH Modifier)

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:04 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

DrJ wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

Thanks so much Dr J for answering my questions... Will you indulge me just once more.. Laughing

Soooo, could you please tell me what additional improvements I could expect to achieve by adding your serums to my regime?

I'm particularly interested in it's ability (or lack there of) in skin firming.

Thanks again DrJ.

Kassy asks about firming. The opposite of sagging. Let's also differentiate from "toning" which is often just a euphemism for superficial tightening by squeezing out blood & serum (which caffeine does quite well).

Of course, much depends on your definition of sagging, and its degrees. I have written elsewhere on the topic of firming of sagging skin (now where did I put that???) in terms of its underlying anatomy and physiology.

When aging advances, the skin layers become less and less attached to the underlying musculature.. At it's core, this is the stuff of plastic surgery.

Volume is lost (decreased fat & dermal collagen/elastin). Collagen changes in quality, and becomes cross linked. Skin can sag and become redundant when volume is lost.
This is the realm of fillers. But we are now able to address this with anti-aging forumulations.

In recent years we have advanced our knowledge of the various layers of skin (epidermis, dermis, subdermis) and how they interconnect. Turns out there is some dynamic "sliding" that goes on. Somewhat fluid rather than rigid solid. Youj will hear morew about "rete pegs" and other dermal-epidermal interface factors in the near future.

In terms of what a topical product can do, let's focus first on the underlying environment. If your skin is inflammed or under antioxidant stress, it will continue the aging decline in volume and those collagen cross links will increase. So dealing with the stresses is a start (antioxidants, sunscreens, nutrients).

Next lets look at the cytokine environment.If we are responding to signals for intrinsic and extrinsic aging with an "aged" cytokine pattern (inflammatory, patchwork healing) we are going to continue to lose quality matrix (especially elasticity). If we change that around (growth oriented, anti-inflammatory, juvenile skin pattern cytokines) we can both tear down old tired matrix and build new fresh matrix.

What are other factors that can increase volume (and thereby decrease sagging)? Retinols. Carnosine. Key anabolic peptides. Strong evidence for isoflavones, especially in post-menopausal women, even if on HRT.

We talk about the 3rd dimension in facial aesthetics. There is a surgical, filler, and matrix regeneration component. Each individual needs to explore which of these, or combination, is right for them.

Hope this helps.

You would make a great attorney... Laughing

I just wanted to know if your product addresses slack skin at all... Here's the thing, I already have great skin, but wonder what your products can do for the foundation (if anything?)

The short answer is YES

When I hear words like "stem cells", it suggests to me it should have great goings on at the cellular level... But then my next thought tells me if that were the case it would not be sold as a cosmetic skin serum, but would require a RX...

Ah, but we have a loophole. We discovered how these cells perform their magic, grow them in abundance, have them make their magic chemicals in the lab, isolate it, and voila. Not a drug - why? It's all natural. You body already makes these, just not in the same amount and pattern as when you were younger.

I just simply want to know exactly what can be achieved by this quite expensive team of cosmetic serums? (Perricone & Creme de la Mer come to mind as disappointments to the majority of reviews I read.. So what does yours offer to set it apart?) What exactly do the "stem cells" do (or not) to the skins foundation?

We really do need to get you to read all the cytokines stuff over at BFT! It's all there.

I'm not decrepit yet... Laughing

That's for sure!

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:16 pm

Thanks again DocJ, I'll give BFT another go... Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:20 pm

jom wrote:

Lotusesther wrote:

Thank you Jom. When I count the number of ingredients in the accelerator I come to 61 ingredients, is that correct?

I got 56.

Seems like a lot. Only about 12 are actives and complementary antioxidants. The rest are the formulation chemist's answer to a strict set of requirements regarding sensory qualities, hydrating qualities, carrier capabilities, penetrants, emulsification characteristics & phase qualities in the face of a complex of liposome & nanosome encapsulated actives, strict pH requirements,and preservatives that are very effective yet nontoxic and friendly to peptides & proteins. We are told by an independent (and well known) formulation chemist that it was "masterful" in that they pulled it off well.

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:37 pm

Speaking of sagging (elasticity)this is an interesting paper out of Japan. Note the association between photoaging and elastase MEDIATED VIA CYTOKINES. Elastase breaks down elastic tissue and leads to sagging.

Now remember, this is the cytokine pattern associated with aging. Inflammatory, catabolic, band aid repairs. The only known way to counteract is by changing the cytokine pattern to one of rebuild, repair, rejuvenate, and growth (of the proper type).

Imokawa G. (2008). Arch Dermatol Res. 2008 Apr;300 Suppl 1:S7-20. Recent advances in characterizing biological mechanisms underlying UV-induced wrinkles: a pivotal role of fibrobrast-derived elastase.

In clinical studies, the formation of facial wrinkles has been closely linked to the loss of elastic properties of the skin. Cumulative irradiation with ultraviolet (UV) B at suberythemal doses significantly reduces the elastic properties of the skin, resulting in the formation of wrinkles. In in vitro studies, we identified a paracrine pathway between keratinocytes and fibroblasts, which leads to wrinkle formation via the up-regulation of fibroblast elastases that degrade elastic fibers. UVB irradiation stimulates the activity of fibroblast elastases in animal skin. Scanning electron microscopy revealed that cumulative UVB irradiation elicits a marked alteration in the three-dimensional structure of elastic fibers, which is closely associated with the subsequent reduction in the elastic properties of the skin, resulting in wrinkle formation. Studies using anti-wrinkle treatments suggest a close relationship between the recovery of wrinkles and an improvement in the linearity of elastic fibers. Those studies also suggest a close correlation between the recovery in the linearity of elastic fibers and the improvement in skin elasticity. In a study using ovariectomized animals, we characterized the important role of elastase in their high vulnerability to UV-induced wrinkle formation. A synthetic inhibitor specific for fibroblast elastases significantly prevents wrinkle formation without reducing the elastic properties of the skin, accompanied by minor damage in elastic fibers. Finally, we identified an effective extract of Zingiber officinale (L.) Rose from a screen of many herb extracts, which has a safe and potent inhibitory activity against fibroblast elastases. Animal studies using the L. Rose extract revealed that it has significant preventive effects against UVB-induced wrinkle formation, which occur in concert with beneficial effects on skin elasticity. A 1-year clinical study on human facial skin to determine the efficacy of the L. Rose extract demonstrated that it inhibits the UV-induced decrease in skin elasticity and prevents or improves wrinkle formation in skin around the corner of the eye without changing the water content of the stratum corneum. Our long-term studies support our hypothesis for a mechanism of wrinkle formation in which cytokine expression is activated by UV irradiation and triggers dermal fibroblasts to increase the expression of elastase. That increase in elastase results in the deterioration of the three-dimensional architecture of elastic fibers, reducing skin elasticity and finally leading to the formation of wrinkles.

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:03 pm

jazzi wrote:

From what I gather on the website, there was no mention of my favorite thing, biopsies or anything related to that, not even silicone impressions. Or will those come in time? I know SkinMedica's Nouricel (which to me seems in at least some way comparable to Ante-age cytokines) has some nice and convincing research published and their TNS product duo does work... Results are not extraordinary, but it's there, both in the literature and on real skin and beneath it. Again, Ante-age promises very much, but very little of seems solid to me so far.

My post raising the same issue as Jazzi's above also seems to have been ignored.

I would like to see the biological/physiological results to the skin from applying AntiAGE. I'm not interested in testimonials or before and after photos - they are merely subjective observations. I want to see solid medical data.

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:36 pm

Keliu wrote:

jazzi wrote:

From what I gather on the website, there was no mention of my favorite thing, biopsies or anything related to that, not even silicone impressions. Or will those come in time? I know SkinMedica's Nouricel (which to me seems in at least some way comparable to Ante-age cytokines) has some nice and convincing research published and their TNS product duo does work... Results are not extraordinary, but it's there, both in the literature and on real skin and beneath it. Again, Ante-age promises very much, but very little of seems solid to me so far.

My post raising the same issue as Jazzi's above also seems to have been ignored.

I would like to see the biological/physiological results to the skin from applying AntiAGE. I'm not interested in testimonials or before and after photos - they are merely subjective observations. I want to see solid medical data.

I had asked on one thread where Dr. J was posting wouldn't they have some pharmaceutical or university funding since it is posted on BFT site that their initial research was in wound healing for diabetics? I would think that would require some abstracts on the medical aspect of their cytokins on skin. That question was never addressed.

http://barefacedtruth.com/the-truth-pair-o-docs/

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:51 pm

Keliu wrote:

jazzi wrote:

From what I gather on the website, there was no mention of my favorite thing, biopsies or anything related to that, not even silicone impressions. Or will those come in time? I know SkinMedica's Nouricel (which to me seems in at least some way comparable to Ante-age cytokines) has some nice and convincing research published and their TNS product duo does work... Results are not extraordinary, but it's there, both in the literature and on real skin and beneath it. Again, Ante-age promises very much, but very little of seems solid to me so far.

My post raising the same issue as Jazzi's above also seems to have been ignored.

I would like to see the biological/physiological results to the skin from applying AntiAGE. I'm not interested in testimonials or before and after photos - they are merely subjective observations. I want to see solid medical data.

I believe Dr. J answered this by saying that they have more research some they can share and some they can't. I look forward to seeing the additional data they are able to release. They are not allowed to release findings from research that they are seeking to get published in a peer-reviewed journal. It will probably be some time before any studies showing possible remodeling of the skin can be released or even completed. The studies they did were completed in Sept.-Dec. 2011 it's possible that research is ongoing. The data that you want are going to take time to be completed, analyzed and written up, published (it can take years to get something published) and made available to the public. A journal does not want to accept a paper for publication for results that have already been released. They want the publication of the article to be the release of the data and findings. Think about all the studies you hear about in the press, they are usually related to the release of research through a published report.

In the meantime there is subjective data from users but there is also the objective data of the skin care expert physicians and esthetician. A certain number of people experienced improvements subjectively and a certain number of people experienced results objectively. The same is probably true of the population at large. Some people will see results and others won't. Not everyone will benefit equally from the product. It could depend on what you are currently using. I do believe that this product is based on solid science and years of research. There is no science behind renovage, ageless secret or the "stem cell therapy" product. I have pretty good intuition, even through the internet and I think Dr. J is on the up and up. The high quality ingredients in his product speak volumes for the quality of the product that he produced. I just wish he had done more quality assurance on the data analysis and presentation on his website before he published it to the world.

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:38 pm

It's not Renovage at 10% dropped into a serum
Mechanism of UVB-Induced Wrinkling of the Skin: Paracrine Cytokine Linkage between Keratinocytes and Fibroblasts Leading to the Stimulation of Elastase
Not BMSC derived.

jom wrote:

A certain number of people experienced improvements subjectively and a certain number of people experienced results objectively. The same is probably true of the population at large. Some people will see results and others won't.

One must further define objective vs subjective results and test accordingly. Histological changes are not always apparent cosmetically. Between group and within group variation. Sample size, length of study, adherence to protocol etc. The formula , should prove beneficial to most, with or without BMSC cytokines. Further to which, due to viability makes the point moot.

Unfortunately, seems some still want to address sag, deep wrinkles, solar lentigos and experience results in 24 hours.

Physiological impossibility.

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:39 pm

DragoN wrote:

It's not Renovage at 10% dropped into a serum
Mechanism of UVB-Induced Wrinkling of the Skin: Paracrine Cytokine Linkage between Keratinocytes and Fibroblasts Leading to the Stimulation of Elastase
Not BMSC derived.

jom wrote:

A certain number of people experienced improvements subjectively and a certain number of people experienced results objectively. The same is probably true of the population at large. Some people will see results and others won't.

One must further define objective vs subjective results and test accordingly. Histological changes are not always apparent cosmetically. Between group and within group variation. Sample size, length of study, adherence to protocol etc. The formula , should prove beneficial to most, with or without BMSC cytokines. Further to which, due to viability makes the point moot.

Unfortunately, seems some still want to address sag, deep wrinkles, solar lentigos and experience results in 24 hours.

Physiological impossibility.

I believe Dr. J defined subjectively as user impressions of improvement and objectively as the experts impressions of improvement. Those are the definitions I was referring to. It's up to Dr. J if he wants to further define those measures and do additional research.

The formula may not prove to be beneficial to most. If users are already using the non-MSC ingredients, especially in stronger doses like l-ascorbic acid 15% and Retin A, they may not experience any improvement if the MSC does not provide additional benefits over those ingredients. It's quite possible that all of the users who experienced improvement in Dr. J's study could have been responding well to the non-MSC ingredients. That's the challenge - how do we know what the MSC is going to do for us? I'll be one test of that when I start using AnteAGE.

I think the great thing about this forum is that people can address whatever they want to address (we all learn in our own way) and as readers we get to ignore any post that we find to be annoying.

free skin care · Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:29 pm

jom wrote:

The formula may not prove to be beneficial to most. If users are already using the non-MSC ingredients, especially in stronger doses like l-ascorbic acid 15% and Retin A, they may not experience any improvement if the MSC does not provide additional benefits over those ingredients. It's quite possible that all of the users who experienced improvement in Dr. J's study could have been responding well to the non-MSC ingredients. That's the challenge - how do we know what the MSC is going to do for us? I'll be one test of that when I start using AnteAGE.

Agreed, part of vetting the sample size based on previous/ current use of any cosmeceuticals. According to the site, they used individuals who had a long history of high end product usage. [ not suggesting that high end equates to effective though.] Many variables to control for.

jom wrote:

It's quite possible that all of the users who experienced improvement in Dr. J's study could have been responding well to the non-MSC ingredients. That's the challenge

Agreed, and based on the research. They should, again dependent on personal history, skin problems etc..

I will also be giving it a run. It will not be a fair comparison by any stretch of the imagination. My mix already contains same minus the BMSC, many of same actives are found in my SS, C serum, Peptide serum. There will not be a chance for the *OMG* or *WOW* or what have you.

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:12 am

Good morning, a few questions for Dr. J:

(1) I have written elsewhere on the topic of firming of sagging skin (now where did I put that???) in terms of its underlying anatomy and physiology. yes - please direct us Smile

(2)
Volume is lost (decreased fat & dermal collagen/elastin). Collagen changes in quality, and becomes cross linked. Skin can sag and become redundant when volume is lost.
This is the realm of fillers. But we are now able to address this with anti-aging forumulations. - As you know, fillers are injected via needles. For anti-aging formulations to address volume, would they not have to penetrate to the deepest layers of skin? *and* is that not the point where the US FDA steps in for regulation?

(3)
What are other factors that can increase volume (and thereby decrease sagging)? Retinols. Carnosine. Key anabolic peptides. Strong evidence for isoflavones, especially in post-menopausal women, even if on HRT.

This is the first I am hearing that retinols, carnosine, peptides and isoflavones can increase volume. I suspect you are referring to *indirect* volume increase - *not* volume increase to replace the natural fat loss, but rather, a "re-arranging" and increase in the amount of collagen in the upper layers of skin...which *indirectly* works to support underlying volume. Not to put to fine a point on it, but I believe this is key. Please confirm or clarify what you mean here with respect to facial volume.

(4)
We talk about the 3rd dimension in facial aesthetics. There is a surgical, filler, and matrix regeneration component. Each individual needs to explore which of these, or combination, is right for them.

Question for your professional opinion:

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you are advising a woman, somewhere in her 50s, perimenopausal, with a moderate amount of sagging, volume loss and some moderate combination of wrinkles both static and dynamic.

What regimen/topicals/procedures would you *most* recommend to this woman who wants to turn back the clock, somewhat aggressively - seeking both quick improvement and continuous improvement over time?

Thanks so much, BFG

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:53 am

DragoN wrote:

The formula , should prove beneficial to most, with or without BMSC cytokines. Further to which, due to viability makes the point moot.

Are you saying that the MSC's are not viable? Explain further, please.

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:28 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

Good morning, a few questions for Dr. J:

(1) I have written elsewhere on the topic of firming of sagging skin (now where did I put that???) in terms of its underlying anatomy and physiology. yes - please direct us Smile

I'm an absent minded prof. type. I need others (help jom?) to find these things for me.

(2)
Volume is lost (decreased fat & dermal collagen/elastin). Collagen changes in quality, and becomes cross linked. Skin can sag and become redundant when volume is lost.
This is the realm of fillers. But we are now able to address this with anti-aging forumulations. - As you know, fillers are injected via needles. For anti-aging formulations to address volume, would they not have to penetrate to the deepest layers of skin? *and* is that not the point where the US FDA steps in for regulation?

They would have to affect fibroblasts. Which is where may actives have their effect. When I talk about volume I'm talking not just fat & muscle, but also about collagen & elastin.

(3)
What are other factors that can increase volume (and thereby decrease sagging)? Retinols. Carnosine. Key anabolic peptides. Strong evidence for isoflavones, especially in post-menopausal women, even if on HRT.

This is the first I am hearing that retinols, carnosine, peptides and isoflavones can increase volume. I suspect you are referring to *indirect* volume increase - *not* volume increase to replace the natural fat loss, but rather, a "re-arranging" and increase in the amount of collagen in the upper layers of skin...which *indirectly* works to support underlying volume. Not to put to fine a point on it, but I believe this is key. Please confirm or clarify what you mean here with respect to facial volume.

ibid. We see a lot of skin "thickening" (matrix increase) which is volumizing, and reveters facial features to a more youth oriented counter. Especially cheeks & perioral. Rounding.

(4)
We talk about the 3rd dimension in facial aesthetics. There is a surgical, filler, and matrix regeneration component. Each individual needs to explore which of these, or combination, is right for them.

Question for your professional opinion:

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you are advising a woman, somewhere in her 50s, perimenopausal, with a moderate amount of sagging, volume loss and some moderate combination of wrinkles both static and dynamic. What regimen/topicals/procedures would you *most* recommend to this woman who wants to turn back the clock, somewhat aggressively - seeking both quick improvement and continuous improvement over time?

Cannot answer. Depends on too many things. Really requires examination, etc. In the end the choices are as above.

Of courese, if I were to recommend one topical to cover all the bases, it would start with A. My personal bias showing?

Thanks so much, BFG

My pleasure.

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:29 pm

DragoN wrote:

It's not Renovage at 10% dropped into a serum
Mechanism of UVB-Induced Wrinkling of the Skin: Paracrine Cytokine Linkage between Keratinocytes and Fibroblasts Leading to the Stimulation of Elastase
Not BMSC derived.

jom wrote:

A certain number of people experienced improvements subjectively and a certain number of people experienced results objectively. The same is probably true of the population at large. Some people will see results and others won't.

One must further define objective vs subjective results and test accordingly. Histological changes are not always apparent cosmetically. Between group and within group variation. Sample size, length of study, adherence to protocol etc. The formula , should prove beneficial to most, with or without BMSC cytokines. Further to which, due to viability makes the point moot.

Unfortunately, seems some still want to address sag, deep wrinkles, solar lentigos and experience results in 24 hours.

Physiological impossibility.

Agree!

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:33 pm

Keliu wrote:

jazzi wrote:

From what I gather on the website, there was no mention of my favorite thing, biopsies or anything related to that, not even silicone impressions. Or will those come in time? I know SkinMedica's Nouricel (which to me seems in at least some way comparable to Ante-age cytokines) has some nice and convincing research published and their TNS product duo does work... Results are not extraordinary, but it's there, both in the literature and on real skin and beneath it. Again, Ante-age promises very much, but very little of seems solid to me so far.

My post raising the same issue as Jazzi's above also seems to have been ignored.

I would like to see the biological/physiological results to the skin from applying AntiAGE. I'm not interested in testimonials or before and after photos - they are merely subjective observations. I want to see solid medical data.

All coming in due time. As jom points out, we have constraints imposed by the "system" of reporting results in professional journals. Please note on the Cellese web site who our academic collaborators are.

http://anteage.com/research-facilities-partnerships/

We are in the thick of it in terms of sophisticated research equipment, procedures, etc. If you like SkinMedica's stuff, consider that we do the same thing they do, except we use mesenchymal stem cells instead of fibroblasts (beacause they are the body's innate 911 system), and know how to optimize their cytokine patterns. It's really an advance on something they pioneered a decade ago. We share several other things in common with SkinMedica. Note our addresses are 30 minutes apart.

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:49 pm

DrJ wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

DrJ wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Good morning, a few questions for Dr. J:

(1) I have written elsewhere on the topic of firming of sagging skin (now where did I put that???) in terms of its underlying anatomy and physiology.

yes - please direct us Smile

I'm an absent minded prof. type. I need others (help jom?) to find these things for me.

I found this on the cytokines thread dated March 25.

DrJ wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Yes, Dr. J, what, if anything, has been proven to improve elasticity and/or sagging?

I believe some of Dr. Fernandes's clinical studies showed improvement via the rolling and associated serums, but I am not aware of anything else, except for surgical intervention.

Peace, BFG

Oh, that's a wonderful idea. Let's discuss the whole would healing & cytokine literature. I really like Dr Fernandez work, and dermarolling (done right).

As far as elastic tissue goes, we are just beginning to find data suggesting new approaches. The whole TGF beta 1,2,& 3 science speaks to this, but so do other approaches that modify fibroblast behavior.

But do keep in mind that some of sagging is not elastic fibers, but muscular (loss of roundness), and the very fascinating role of the dermal-epidermal junction, as well as the dermal-connective tissue/muscle junction (a new wave theory about how they interact as a fluid-like interface = brand spanking new).

But let's do look at all these things, even if we can't do them all at once.

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:41 pm

Dr J, this paragraph is from an article you wrote on BFT about cytokines:

"Every time you go out into the sun (especially if unprotected) your skin undergoes injury. The DNA in your skin cells is damaged. Chemicals are released. Some of those cells will be repaired. Some will die. But repeated insult and repair leads to photoaging. Spots, wrinkles, sags, etc. Add to that some intrinsic (genetically programmed) aging. With chronic, repeated injury there are changes that take place in the skin (subsurface scarring). This is why cosmetic surgery, lasers, devices, and various skin concoctions are prevalent in the marketplace."

I'm interested in this statement "Some of those cells will be repaired. Some will die."

Would you say that by using MSC a greater number of the cells will be repaired? Does MSC help repair damaged cells thereby slowing down phototaging? Is MSC preventative? How do the cells that get repaired get repaired? Is that what anti-aging is all about, trying to repair as many damaged cells as possible? Pardon my ignorance.

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:46 pm

Hi Dr J, I haven't posted on this thread before but have been following it closely. I have a few questions for you that I haven't seen answered yet. How would you use the serum post dermarolling with the 1.5mm? Can I use it immediately following the roll or should I wait a few hours/days? Is the accelerator ok for extremely acne prone skin? And lastly I was wondering if and when you will start shipping to Canada? Thanks, Doodles

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