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Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:41 pm  |
| DrJ wrote: |
Keep in mind the study lasted 6-8 weeks. maximal effects shouldn't really take place for 4-6 months. It takes time to build new collagen fibers & break up bad cross links.
If anyone reports fantastic results in eliminating wrinkles (rhytids) after a few weeks of any product don't believe it. Physiologically just not in the cards. We were surprised the results were as good as they were. |
Yes, good point. I had forgotten how long the study was, and you are right, I would not expect a person to have wrinkle reduction in that short of time (and that is why I take self assessments with a grain of salt, as people "think" they see results often when there really isn't anything to see). |
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Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:51 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Keep in mind the study lasted 6-8 weeks. maximal effects shouldn't really take place for 4-6 months. It takes time to build new collagen fibers & break up bad cross links.
If anyone reports fantastic results in eliminating wrinkles (rhytids) after a few weeks of any product don't believe it. Physiologically just not in the cards. We were surprised the results were as good as they were. |
Yes, good point. I had forgotten how long the study was, and you are right, I would not expect a person to have wrinkle reduction in that short of time (and that is why I take self assessments with a grain of salt, as people "think" they see results often when there really isn't anything to see). |
Guess I'm the opposite of those people: I rarely if ever see any improvement. That could be because I've been on retin a for many, many years and avoided sun exposure even before it was cool to do so.  |
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Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:55 pm |
| Elvisshops wrote: |
Guess I'm the opposite of those people: I rarely if ever see any improvement. |
You are not alone. There are a few of us here that rarely seen any improvement! |
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Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:23 pm |
I can't believe I just wasted 15 minutes reading that drivel. They clearly think they're better than us - how ignorant (and arrogant) of them. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:18 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Elvisshops wrote: |
Guess I'm the opposite of those people: I rarely if ever see any improvement. |
You are not alone. There are a few of us here that rarely seen any improvement! |
Count me in on the never getting instant results, if ever with many products I have bought in the past. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:22 am |
| jom wrote: |
I can't believe I just wasted 15 minutes reading that drivel. They clearly think they're better than us - how ignorant (and arrogant) of them. |
I agree, but they are good for a laugh if you choose to look at it from that perspective, I especially "love" the baby talk I run into if I read on some threads there?  |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:19 am |
| jom wrote: |
I can't believe I just wasted 15 minutes reading that drivel. They clearly think they're better than us - how ignorant (and arrogant) of them. |
Yes, my thoughts exactly. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:33 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
I can't believe I just wasted 15 minutes reading that drivel. They clearly think they're better than us - how ignorant (and arrogant) of them. |
Yes, my thoughts exactly. |
EDS seems to be coming in for some snide remarks - which is quite funny seeing as how most post here as well. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:49 am |
| jom wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| I just realized that the pie charts do not add up to 100%. Dr. J what is that about? The profesional chart adds up to 74% and the user chart adds up to 77% yet they are made to look like they add up to 100%. |
Artist mess up. I'll get them to put the real ones up there. Good math skills! |
I hope you don't mind Dr. J but I have a couple of other suggestions. I'm a researcher too so I'm used to colloborating with people on data analysis and presentation so I just thought I'd give you some feedback on the other two graphs that you have on the website. The x-axis labels should be the same in both graphs and they should match the text you have in the boxes listing the 12 parameters. Just for consistency purposes. The y-axis values should be 0-100% in both graphs. This would allow more room for the x-axis labels in the "professional ratings" graph and would allow for a better comparison.
Just my 2 cents! Hope you don't mind. I've also launched a website before and maintain one so I know how nervewracking it can be. |
I agree. Thanks. We will spiff it up. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:04 am |
Dr. J, don't even waste your time on that forum, not worth it. It's like we're being challenged to a "face off". 
I bought some DIY actives before but I don't have tons of time on my hands and I also appreciate science and advancement in medicine. I also think $280 is not outrageous considering other brands like Perricone, SKII, etc. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:12 am |
| WhiteWolf wrote: |
Dr. J, don't even waste your time on that forum, not worth it. It's like we're being challenged to a "face off".
I bought some DIY actives before but I don't have tons of time on my hands and I also appreciate science and advancement in medicine. I also think $280 is not outrageous considering other brands like Perricone, SKII, etc. |
Ahh but if you read the link post 22 on page 2 Dr. J is "working on" making the cytokines available to those DIY, funny that was not mentioned here when Kassy was discussing DIY? I can only wonder who that supplier might be, or will all sellers of DIY ingredients have an opportunity to sell them? 
http://www.skincaretalk.com/t/33554/cellese-anteage-stem-cell-cytokines-launched/20#post_556308 |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:29 am |
| I am wondering if the ingredients are listed in order of content/concentration. If cytokines are the main ingredient it must take an awful lot of stem cells to produce that amount. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:34 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| I am wondering if the ingredients are listed in order of content/concentration. If cytokines are the main ingredient it must take an awful lot of stem cells to produce that amount. |
It is my understanding that if made in the US, all ingredients must be listed in order of highest percent to lowest above a very small percentage....somwhere around 1% or could be lower? It is required by FDA law as I remember. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:12 am |
| On second thought, there is no ingredient list. The one that was posted as such is faulty (no essential oils), the one about the accelerator is faulty (states cytokines where the key ingredient list on the website does not say that for the accelerator) as well. The website gives a list of key ingredients, which isn't the same as an ingredient list is it? |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:18 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| On second thought, there is no ingredient list. The one that was posted as such is faulty (no essential oils), the one about the accelerator is faulty (states cytokines where the key ingredient list on the website does not say that for the accelerator) as well. The website gives a list of key ingredients, which isn't the same as an ingredient list is it? |
No they really need to get the information in full disclosure correct. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:25 am |
| The ingredients are far less important to me than the outcome. What's the saying: the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:29 am |
| Elvisshops wrote: |
| The ingredients are far less important to me than the outcome. What's the saying: the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. |
I agree except where you are paying a premium price for garbage, and it is nice to know what is in your skin care for those with sensitivities. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:07 am |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Thanks so much Dr J for answering my questions... Will you indulge me just once more..
Soooo, could you please tell me what additional improvements I could expect to achieve by adding your serums to my regime?
I'm particularly interested in it's ability (or lack there of) in skin firming.
Thanks again DrJ. |
Kassy asks about firming. The opposite of sagging. Let's also differentiate from "toning" which is often just a euphemism for superficial tightening by squeezing out blood & serum (which caffeine does quite well).
Of course, much depends on your definition of sagging, and its degrees. I have written elsewhere on the topic of firming of sagging skin (now where did I put that???) in terms of its underlying anatomy and physiology.
When aging advances, the skin layers become less and less attached to the underlying musculature.. At it's core, this is the stuff of plastic surgery.
Volume is lost (decreased fat & dermal collagen/elastin). Collagen changes in quality, and becomes cross linked. Skin can sag and become redundant when volume is lost.
This is the realm of fillers. But we are now able to address this with anti-aging forumulations.
In recent years we have advanced our knowledge of the various layers of skin (epidermis, dermis, subdermis) and how they interconnect. Turns out there is some dynamic "sliding" that goes on. Somewhat fluid rather than rigid solid. Youj will hear morew about "rete pegs" and other dermal-epidermal interface factors in the near future.
In terms of what a topical product can do, let's focus first on the underlying environment. If your skin is inflammed or under antioxidant stress, it will continue the aging decline in volume and those collagen cross links will increase. So dealing with the stresses is a start (antioxidants, sunscreens, nutrients).
Next lets look at the cytokine environment.If we are responding to signals for intrinsic and extrinsic aging with an "aged" cytokine pattern (inflammatory, patchwork healing) we are going to continue to lose quality matrix (especially elasticity). If we change that around (growth oriented, anti-inflammatory, juvenile skin pattern cytokines) we can both tear down old tired matrix and build new fresh matrix.
What are other factors that can increase volume (and thereby decrease sagging)? Retinols. Carnosine. Key anabolic peptides. Strong evidence for isoflavones, especially in post-menopausal women, even if on HRT.
We talk about the 3rd dimension in facial aesthetics. There is a surgical, filler, and matrix regeneration component. Each individual needs to explore which of these, or combination, is right for them.
Hope this helps. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:18 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| I am wondering if the ingredients are listed in order of content/concentration. If cytokines are the main ingredient it must take an awful lot of stem cells to produce that amount. |
They are indeed the main ingredient. Millions and millions and millions of cells working hard for you. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:35 am |
Just a couple thoughts after skimming over the site and this thread and probably some tiny bit of critique (Or a more PC way of saying that if something I say offends someone in some way, please do see a therapist before you respond).
No doubt interesting product, might even try it, provided EU shipping becomes available... and I get to see some more real results. Video interviews with user feedbacks do not sway me (quite the opposite, to be honest, after watching them), user comments/impressions from 'clinical trails' aren't too convincing either. Those things and more I see on any given cosmetic sites who also claim to have done decades of innovative research and posses unique or advanced understanding of aging. On some other thread I kept reading about more tests and research on this Cellese cytokine cocktail that's copyrighted or otherwise unpublished; is there any chance that might change in the next 6-12 months? Because frankly, what I currently see is next to nothing and there is only DrJ's word that everything is top notch and the product delivers. From what I gather on the website, there was no mention of my favorite thing, biopsies or anything related to that, not even silicone impressions. Or will those come in time? I know SkinMedica's Nouricel (which to me seems in at least some way comparable to Ante-age cytokines) has some nice and convincing research published and their TNS product duo does work... Results are not extraordinary, but it's there, both in the literature and on real skin and beneath it. Again, Ante-age promises very much, but very little of seems solid to me so far. It really irks me, honestly, even more so since DrJ has at times criticized others for same tactics and commented on cosmetic industry as such for being only big shiny ads made up by marketing. Not that it concerns me, I'm not Cellese customer and I've never used any of the other products in question, but not it comes over as a tiny double standard. I also don't feel the urge to play guinea piggy for anyone, not my cup of tea. I'd love to know what type of collagen will grow in skin and where exactly, what will happen with elastin, how much plumping can be expected, and other things I can't think of at the moment, like does it stimulate microcirculaton in skin and/or new capillary growth, would it assist in barrier repair after procedures like IPL/laser/peels.
For the website you might want to get a better graphics team and maybe hire some editor to polish things up and give it all a more professional look, like adding crisp quality graphs and pies, for starters. If you throw a lot of cash into the science stuff, product R&D and cells themselves, but halfway decent web design services usually cost a fraction of that.
That said, I'm looking forward to reviews here on EDS and other places! The Accelerator not so much, but the Serum itself is what I'm most interested in.
Unrelated, but is it too much to ask to keep thread cluttering (albeit amusing) comments on other forums in Lounge? There are threads for that. It's different target audience and they like "pix of catz", so leave them their fun. |
_________________
Do what all good pragmatists do. Compromise. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:40 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| On second thought, there is no ingredient list. The one that was posted as such is faulty (no essential oils), the one about the accelerator is faulty (states cytokines where the key ingredient list on the website does not say that for the accelerator) as well. The website gives a list of key ingredients, which isn't the same as an ingredient list is it? |
The AnteAGE website lists the full ingredients. Dr. J - you need to take the Essential Oils off the list!
http://anteage.com/key-ingredients/
http://anteage.com/key-ingredients-in-anteage-accelerator/ |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:46 am |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Next lets look at the cytokine environment.If we are responding to signals for intrinsic and extrinsic aging with an "aged" cytokine pattern (inflammatory, patchwork healing) we are going to continue to lose quality matrix (especially elasticity). If we change that around (growth oriented, anti-inflammatory, juvenile skin pattern cytokines) we can both tear down old tired matrix and build new fresh matrix. |
This sounds great on paper, but I can't help to be skeptical... How much impact can these topically applied youthful cytokines can have against a skin full with damaged/aged signals. Even with the promising and/or proven flankers in the Serum.
Also... Might be a weird question, but has any of the test persons experienced increased hair growth anywhere while using Serum and/or Accelerator? |
_________________
Do what all good pragmatists do. Compromise. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:51 am |
| A very nice thing happened to me with Cellese. I ordered only the serum and was offered a decent coupon for the Accelerator, bringing the cost of the Accelerator down to almost 1/2 price. Will trial the whole thing and see what it does and how long it lasts. I was on ISCO Lifeline for about 9 months, so can compare the two in time and let all of you know how it goes and what I notice. Way to go, Cellese! |
_________________
70+ Lifeline Daycare, their Eye firming complex, OSEA ocean lotion cleanser, Makeover Workshop Re-Creation Lip Treatment, Argan oil some nights, Dennis Gross CC Cream SpF 18 |
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