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Are all these products really necessary?
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sandooch
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:14 am      Reply with quote
I'm not even certain what face serum actually does that a moisturizer can't do. I just started to religiously use one about 3-4 months ago only because I'd recieved a free one from doing a few surveys. But, what exactly does it do?

I guess I'm just feeling like I'm using so many products each night on my face and would like to know if all are even necessary or if I'm using them in the right/wrong order or what. Could someone help me out here? This is my routine each night:

1. Brush teeth with Colgate Optic White (best whitening toothpaste I've ever used...hands down! Very Happy ).

2. Wash face with Dr. Perricone MD Nutritive Cleaners (again, I received this from doing a survey, but would never purchase such an expensive face wash on my own...$70 for 12 oz! But I love the smell of it).

3. Apply the Kiehl's Cryste Marine Firming Serum on face and the Aveeno Ageless Vitality eye serum to my eyelids (left over for when I was using the whole Aveeno Ageless Viality system, which didn't seem to do anything Sad ).

4. After letting these serums set for a couple minutes, I apply Donell Lightening Gel only to my remaining age spots and melasma, which have greatly faded from several lactic acid and TCA peels. But I figure why not help it along in between treatments if possible.

5. While the lightener is drying, I apply Careprost to my lashes.

6. Then I put on two different eye-firming creams (being careful not to get close to the Careprost), one on each eye, because I am doing a test to see if the expensive eye treatment will work any better than the less expensive one. So I put DDF Advanced Eye Firming Concentrate on my left eye and bareMinerals Firming Eye Treatment on my right eye. I've been doing this every night for 4 weeks. No real noticable difference to the texture or firmness of my lids as of yet.

7. Finally, I just received my Alpha Hydrox Enhanced Cream 10% Glycolic AHA Anti-Wrinkle yesterday and applied it at the end of this routine all over my face, except for my eyes.

And every 4-6 weeks I'll do either a lactic acid or a TCA peel only on my few age spots/melasma on cheeks and on my forehead and furrow, where my deepest lines are. My hope is to only have to use these peels 2-3 more times to completely eliminate the hyperpigmentation, then keep them away with the Alpha Hydrox and a SPF30 sunscreen worn during the day. Image

After all this, I am ready for bed...because I'm exhausted. Laughing Seriously, I feel like I may be using too many products here. But, then again, when I see how many products are listed on some of your nightly routines on the other thread here, I start wondering if I'm using enough. Razz

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gretchen
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:58 am      Reply with quote
The main thing is to have a good set of day and night products. An antioxidant, sunscreen and moisturizer that doesn't make you oily or ruin your makeup for day. At night, a skin rebuilder like Retin-A or copper peptides and a good night cream to seal it in like Egyptian Magic. TCA & lactic peels are good for keeping the skin fresh.
A Clarisonic is nice to get all the dead skin off etc.
Maybe streamline your products- use up what you have then decide what to replace.
sandooch
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:18 am      Reply with quote
Yes, I definitely need to use up what I already have, especially since I've been buying products like crazy since joining this site. Image

I do have the Olay face brush, which I had forgotten to mention, and use that 3-4 times a week. And I'm going to start doing the Tanaka face massage every day to help firm up my skin.

I was looking with interest at the Egyptian Magic thread. I may have to put that on my wish list on Amazon for when I get through with one of these other products (if I don't find them working).

I guess I should have mentioned what I am looking for to improve on my face. My areas of concern are my age spots/melasma; although, like I had already mentioned, those are fading nicely with what I'm already doing. I do not have a lot of wrinkles except for on my forehead and furrow area. While they are not exactly reducing, I do not think they've gotten any worse over the last 5-6 years.

I've been doing Ageless If We Dare for 14 weeks now. It is really working well for building up my cheeks, and I think it is just starting to help lift my eyelids. But I wouldn't mind finding a cream that could help my eyelids along in the lifting department (if there even is such a cream). I know I have to give the ones I'm using another month or two in order to know for certain if they work or not, so I'll just hang tough there.

My skin has always been very soft and I rarely break out in a pimple, so I don't need any help there. So, mainly just to help lighten up pigmentation and help in fading fine lines.

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gretchen
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:21 am      Reply with quote
The Egyptian Magic is amazing.
sandooch
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:24 am      Reply with quote
What do you feel it's done for you, Gretchen?

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Firefox7275
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:42 am      Reply with quote
Instead of thinking of your products by brand, think of them by active and concentration: what are the ingredients of those products and are they scientifically proven to work? How can you judge which is having an effect when you are layering on so much and adding in new products mid 'test'? Are you considering the pH of each product, layering in the right order for best absorption, adhering to recommended wait times? Does your nighttime routine make sense when you also consider your daytime routine?

Moisturisers are supposed to keep your skin hydrated, some contain sunscreen agents or anti-ageing actives ... they might be sufficient for many people. Serums *should* be a concentrated source of actives addressing specific skincare concerns you have, but many are just crammed with silicones and other rubbish. Your lightener and your serums are basically a duplication of effort, there are plenty of serums containing proven tyrosinase inhibitors such as vitamin C or niacinamide and N-acetylglucosamine. Many actives are effective on other signs of ageing and/ or other skin complaints.

The eye area is skin and it ages in exactly the same way as the rest of your face, it therefore needs much the same treatment. If your moisturiser/ serum are irritating for the eye area, don't put them on your face. If you need three eye products you haven't chosen the right one based on its ingredients. Four weeks is insufficient for anti-ageing actives to have a permanent visible effect, even Retin-A requires months of use.

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sandooch
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:57 am      Reply with quote
Oh my, Firefox, you've given me a lot to think about. I feel like I need a degree in chemistry to figure all this out. Image

I am not certain about the Ph in these products, but I know I've only used products that have gotten rave reviews on how they work from people here or Amazon or both.

And you're right, it is hard to tell which (if any) product is doing it's job when I am using so many.

My daytime routine is much, much simplier. Just the serums, both testing eye creams and a moisutizer with 30 spf sunscreen.

None of the products I've mentioned have caused me any irritation, except from the first 2 weeks using Careprost. And, aside from the eye serum, I'm just using the 2 eye creams until I can figure out if one works better than or the same as the other. But I understand that I need to give them more time to work.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining about any of the products. Some have not been used long enough to see if they are effective. I'm just wondering if I'm using too many at once or using them in the wrong order.

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Firefox7275
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:55 am      Reply with quote
It is complicated but luckily others have done much of the hard work for us! Very Happy I use few commercial products because most include ingredients I wouldn't allow on my face, and I have no idea what concentration of actives are used (see how far down the ingredients list they are). Reviews are well worth reading but people don't write these scientifically, they forget they have taken something else out of their routine to include the new product, they don't allow long enough for actives to work, they are swayed by the lovely 'feel' of silicones. So I start with the unbiased published research on actives, read ingredients lists, shortlist products then look at reviews.

Much irritation and inflammation takes place at the cellular level and is invisible. It may well be your products are not causing any inflammation but you should still check the ingredients lists for known irritants such as sulphate surfactants, chemical sunscreens and parabens. You cannot figure out which eye cream works unless you are not applying anything else to the area except a totally neutral moisturiser/ sunscreen, and unless you are making no other changes to your routine over the course of several months. Weak products may be effective working together; on the flip side potentially effective products may be being 'neutralised' by the other products you are layering on or lack of wait times. It would be a better test to use one product only on one eye and nothing at all on the other.

IMO really your total skincare routine should not need to be more than a non-drying cleanser once a day, one moisturiser plus one sunscreen OR two moisturisers one of which contains zinc oxide, one or two serums gentle enough for the eye area, one or two exfoliating methods. Actives for melasma AND ageing with excellent track records include vitamin C (ascorbic acid or MAP 10%), niacinamide and N-acetylglucosamine which work synergistically with kinetin. You can make both serums relatively simply (see kits and links to studies below), but there are good quality ready mades if you prefer that.
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-SEA-Lab-cln-SEA-Lab-Kits/Categories.bok
http://myfawnie.webs.com/
You may find some of these actives are included in your current products of course.

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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim.
Firefox7275
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:48 pm      Reply with quote
Perricone Nutritive Cleanser
"Water, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Lauryl Glucoside, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, PPG-2 Hydroxyethyl Coco/Isostearamide, Dimethyl MEA (DMAE), Citric Acid, Sodium Chloride, Thioctic Acid (Alpha-Lipoic acid), Disodium EDTA, Fragrance, Benzophenone-4, Magnesium Aspartate, Zinc Gluconate, Copper Gluconate, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone."
Sulphates are known irritants down to 1%, they thin the skin and increase transepidermal water loss (dehydration). Sulphates are extremely cheap ingredients, total rip off product which I would use up as body wash at a push.

Donell Lightening Gel
"DISTILLED WATER, PLANT CELLULOSE, CASTOR OIL, METHYL GLYCOL, AZELAIC ACID, KOJIC ACID, GLYCOLIC ACID POLYMER, LACTIC ACID POLYMER, ETHYL HYDROXIDE, ASCORBIC ACID, BETA-CAROTENE, SPIN TRAP, LEMON EXTRACT"
Contains a couple of good actives, but highly unlikely to be the required 10% ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid must be at a specific pH to be absorbed and should not be layered over other products. Did you know this contains AHAs same as your new moisturiser?

Keihls firming serum
Expensive for ascorbic acid - a super cheap ingredient - tho it is at 10.5% which is excellent. Would like to know how this is stabilised. Other than that Keihls refuse to divulge their ingredients lists which is a red flag.

Alpha Hydrox creme
"Water, Glycolic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide, Cetyl Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Stearic Acid, PEG-40 Stearate, Cyclomethicone."
Cyclomethicone is a silicone. Would like to know the pH of this given there is an acid and an alkali in the first three ingredients.

DDF eye concentrate
"Curcuma Longa, Promatrixyl Peptide, Argirilene Peptide, Caffeine, Pro-Dew 400 (DNA Precursor), Water, Glycerin, Niacinamide, Isohexadecane, Dimethicone, Isopropyl Isostearate, Caffeine, Panthenol, Curcuma Longa (Turmeric) Root Extract, Tocopheryl Acetate, Retinyl Propionate, Palmitoyl Pentapeptide-4, Acetyl Hexapeptide-8, Sodium Hyaluronate, Sodium PCA, Betaine, Sorbitol, Glycine, Alanine, Proline, Serine, Threonine, Arginine, Lysine, Glutamic Acid, Stearyl Alcohol, Polyacrylamide, Behenyl Alcohol, Cetyl Alcohol, Petrolatum, Polymethylsilsesquioxane, C13-14 Isoparaffin, Benzyl Alcohol, Dimethiconol, PEG-100 Stearate, Dmdm Hydantoin, Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Glucoside, Laureth-7, Allantoin, Disodium EDTA, Butylene Glycol, Polyhydroxystearic Acid, Triethoxycaprylylsilane, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Butylparaben, Ethylparaben, Propylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Titanium Dioxide, Mica, Silica."

Is this yellow since turmeric is the first ingredient? That is ridiculously long and full of silicones for a silky feel, titanium and mica for light reflection, parabens and other rubbish. The actives are mostly pepetides, some of which have little to no evidence base some too large to cross the skin barrier. Doubt most are present in the manufacturers recommended concentrations. Could be niacinamide at 5% because glycerin is usually <5%. If there are silicones in your Aveeno eye serum they will block any peptides absorbing.

Bare Minerals firming eye treatment
"Water, Glycerin, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Wheat Straw Glycosides, Cetyl Alcohol, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter), Caffeine, Coco-Caprylate/Caprate, Glyceryl Stearate, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Benzimidazole Diamond Amidoethyl Urea Carbamoyl Propyl Polymethylsilsesquioxane, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Squalane, Soil Minerals, Tocopherol, Ceramide 2, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Dipeptide-2, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7, Chlorella Vulgaris Extract, Pelvetia Canaliculata Extract, Peucedanum Ostruthium Leaf Extract, Hesperidin Methyl Chalcone, Peg-10 Rapeseed Sterol, Tribehenin, Mica, Titanium Dioxide (Ci 77891), Glycine Soja (Soybean) Oil, Anthemis Nobilis Flower Water, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Cananga Odorata Flower Oil, Anthemis Nobilis (Flower) Oil, Dehydroacetic Acid, Sorbitan Olivate, Sorbitan Palmitate, Sodium Dehydroacetate, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate, Linalool, Benzyl Benzoate, Steareth-20, Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Disodium Edta, Chlorhexidine Digluconate, Dimethicone, Limonene, Benzyl Alcohol, Cetyl Palmitate, Xanthan Gum, Cellulose Gum."

Again ridiculously long and mostly emollients occlusives and humectants; a moisturiser basically. No need to put ten different plant oils in as well as silicones. A few peptides but likely too low down the list to be in useful concentrations. The 'independent study' claims focus on instant results not anti-ageing. This is partly down to the caffeine which both products contain.

You are lacking decent collagen boosters and overloading your skin with fillers and moisturisers IMO. No retinoid?

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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim.
sandooch
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:37 pm      Reply with quote
Oh my gosh, Firefox...Image Thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time to look up all of those ingredients for me. You are a doll! Image

Well, it looks like I'm using a lot of products with some expensive snake oil, doesn't it?

Problem is...I am now broke and cannot buy anything new for a while! Laughing First thing I'll eliminate, though, will be the lightening gel since it contains an AHA like my Alpha Hydrox does.

For the Alpha Hydrox, I found this: Effective pH 4. I have no idea if that's good or not.

I have no problem giving up the Aveeno eye serum, but should I also stop using the Keihls firming serum.

Here are its ingredients: Aqua/Water, Glycerin, Dimethicone, Alcohol Denat., Butylene Glycol, BIS-PEG-18 Methyl Ether Dimethyl Silace, Dimthicone/PEG-10/15 Crosspolymer, Caprylic/Capric Trigylceride, Ammonium Polyacryloydimethyl Taurate, Paraffin, Hydrolyzed Rice Protein, Chlorphanesin, Methylparaben, Mel/Honey, Caffeine, Sodium Hyaluforate, Tocoperyl Acetate, Panthenol, Polysorbate 20, Padina Pavonica/Padina Pavonica Extract, Carbomer, Menthoxypropradiol, Adenosine, Propylparaben, Fagus Sylyatica/Fagus Sylyatica Extract, Collagen, Sodium Hydroxide, Ascorbyl Glucoside, Glycine Soja/Soybean Protein, Chitosan, Sodium Chondroitin Sulfate.

The DDF eye cream doesn't have any yellow in it, but some reviewers say they can smell the turmeric in it, but I don't. I actually only have the sample size of this cream, so once it runs out, I'll probably use the bareMinerals on that side as well until that cream runs out.

What would you recommend for a collagen boosters? In fact, where can I see your whole skin care routine, so that I can just copy it when I'm done with these products. Razz

Again, thank you so very much for all your advice and help.

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onmyboat
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:13 pm      Reply with quote
Totally agree with Firefox. You really want to pay attention to pH and percentage of actives. Otherwise it's a waste of money. The problem comes down to the fact that it's in the skincare industry's financial interest to make only so-so products, you know, ones that promise to hydrate or nourish the skin but contain irritants alongside the so-called actives, which usually aren't at the right pH or concentration to work. That way you continue to shop around and buy different brands and the money still goes into the pocket of the same handful of companies who own all those different brands.

I really recommend getting a cleanser in the 4.5-5.5 pH range (or do OCM and add some polysorbate 80 to cut down on the mess/time), and look into DIY. You can get niacinamide, vit C, acids, etc for $5 or less per ounce, and you can fiddle with the formula until it suits your skin. Plus you can make your own sunscreen, and again, add some moisturizing ingredients that don't normally appear in sunscreen so that way it doubles as a moisturizer.
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:10 pm      Reply with quote
Firefox...that was beautiful.
Quote:
Totally agree with Firefox. You really want to pay attention to pH and percentage of actives. Otherwise it's a waste of money.

100% agreement here.

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:24 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks so much, onmyboat.

Boy, and here I was thinking I was pretty skin smart. I knew nothing about ph balances and AHAs and such until coming here. I just kept buying the next newest thing on the market, thinking it had to be better than the last. Sad

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:38 pm      Reply with quote
yeah, I was in the same boat (now I'm on my boat) before I started reading this forum. Never knew anything about pH of products or of skin, and based my buying decisions on the marketing blurb on the packaging.

It's kind of a shame to discover this after throwing away thousands of dollars on all the products over the years, but it's cool because there's things that actually work, based on science and fact, not some vague advertising. I'm doing my research at the moment before I put in orders to Skin Essential Actives and Skin Actives to start doing my own formulations.

By the way, if you suffer from clogged pores or sebum plugs like I do, I really do recommend OCM. I'm waiting until I get polysorbate 80 so it's more manageable but it makes such a difference, and I love seeing all the nasty sebum coming out. Plus it won't raise the pH of your skin.
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:36 pm      Reply with quote
It sounds like people here have quite elaborate skincare routines.

I have a bunch of different skincare items but do not usually use a lot on my face at once.
For morning I have maybe 5 different eye gels and they are so similar I just use one and then switch it up if I feel like it.
*I actually ended up with so many eye gels as I was curious to see which one would work better.

So far I like Neostrata firming gel the best, then a Yves rocher cream/gel. The others doubt I'll rebuy, but will use up.

For actives I like Neostrata 10% vitamin C cream- it comes in capsules you break open.
I do notice a difference when I use it.
Right now I have none left and am trying out a similar thing by the Body Shop.
The body shop one does not work that great.

For cleansers I have a cream cleanser (Badescu seaweed cleansing cream) and a foaming natural soap.

I'm on a budget, so I usually try and get samples of things before buying them- that way I am much less wasteful hopefully.
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