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Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:54 am  |
| Keliu wrote: |
DrJ - I wish to state why I have a problem with the "results" of your clinical trial above. I know that I have rubbed you the wrong way with my previous comments about this, so I want to make my position clear.
At 62, I am aging - but I am a "young" 62 year old rather than a little old biddy. I have done just about everything to my skin that is humanly possible, except a facelift. I've used peels, dermarolled, had so many laser treatments I've lost count, had Sculptra and PRP therapy. Nothing has given what I would term a "WOW" result. However, I think I'm holding together reasonably well for my age. When I had the Sculptra injected my doctor told me that my collagen level was very good because he could feel the resistance when he was injecting me. Now, whether he was just trying to be positive I don't know - but one would think that it would have been more to his advantage to tell me that my collagen levels sucked and that I needed more treatments.
But what I wanted to address is the subjective nature of your results. My own appearance seems to change on a daily basis. Some days I look in the mirror and think, "Not bad!!" - other days I think "OMG, I look like a withered old hag!" - so I go from one extreme to the other with various degrees in between with no apparent reason for the differences. My shape-shifting (as I call it) is not due to a poor diet or lack of sleep - I lead a rather predictable existence and nothing much changes. Maybe it's just totally psychological and when all is well with the world I perceive myself looking better than when my mood is down. I would bet any money that to my family and friends I look exactly the same everyday - but that's not what I see.
So when you hand your testers a "state-of-the-art" serum to test, how can you guarantee that they are not seeing results because they want to or because they're having one of their "shape-shifting" days like I do? Quite simply, you can't. Therefore, I think what two seventy year old women think they see in the mirror is completely irrelevant. As a scientist, I would have thought that you would have at least carried out some kind of skin measurements of your testers - measurements that would show the truth.
As you can see from my signature line, I'm somewhat skeptical as to what topicals can achieve. However, I have stated in my posts many times in the past that I do think the future in topicals is in stem-cell technology, so I'm not a total nay-sayer. But I need convincing, and subjective comments aren't going to do it.
Sorry about droning on everyone - but I just looked in the mirror and I'm in the "withered old hag" faze. |
Keliu – I’m going to respond to your post because there are many things in it that I can relate to. I am roughly the same age and have also done many, many “therapeutic” things to my skin. I can also relate to the shape-shifting. I think some of the blame for why skin looks better one day and not the next has to do with the same things that cause us to have bad hair days – temperature and humidity and maybe even barometric pressure (although that could be a stretch).
While I am not using Cellese (I use one of the “other” stem cell products) I think that maybe the primary things that these products provide is increased hydration and decreased inflammation. I think that hydration is largely responsible for the shape-shifting issue, because when skin is not fully hydrated it looks dull and wrinkled and saggy, and inflamed skin looks red, blotchy and DRY. For me, having skin that always appears well hydrated is a lot like having younger skin. I can’t remember slathering moisturizer on throughout the day when I was in my early twenties, and now I don’t have a need to do it as well. My skin looks just as good when I wake up in the morning as it does when I go to sleep at night. I certainly appear to have fewer wrinkles, but that may be because my skin is so well hydrated. I first noticed this phenomenon shortly after I started using Lifeline and was on a shopping trip with friends. For the first time in years, I looked good in ALL the mirrors – regardless of the lighting.
Many won’t find this hydration thing a big enough deal to warrant the price of these products. But I am fairly certain it is the key to how the technology is working. I got rid of my bad shape-shifting days and I am pretty happy about it. |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:50 am |
| That is definitely an interesting theory, Panda. I do know exactly what you mean on the hydration and wrinkle-free look, only to "dry out" and have the wrinkles return a few hours later. Do you think that another ingredient in the product could be helping or do you believe it is the stem cells? I am wondering if we compare ingredients in the 3 major products being used, if we find anything else in common? |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:10 am |
At 58 I can totally relate to this shape shifting phenomenon!
Also what Panda has said about increased hydration I am aware of after using AnteAGE serum & Accelerator for almost a month now. LifeLine serum for a month prior, so almost 2 months of this stem cell technology.
I am finding skin hydration to be at a deeper level. Skin still feels moist & plumped in the morning and even after washing my face. Skin is also feeling very calm & comfortable so there is a definite anti-inflammatory effect from the cytokines.
So this deeper, lasting hydration & anti-inflammatory effect is really making a difference in having more good skin days even this early on in the game. I feel like I'm feeding my skin what it's been needing. |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:41 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
But what I wanted to address is the subjective nature of your results. My own appearance seems to change on a daily basis. Some days I look in the mirror and think, "Not bad!!" - other days I think "OMG, I look like a withered old hag!" - so I go from one extreme to the other with various degrees in between with no apparent reason for the differences. My shape-shifting (as I call it) is not due to a poor diet or lack of sleep - I lead a rather predictable existence and nothing much changes. Maybe it's just totally psychological and when all is well with the world I perceive myself looking better than when my mood is down. I would bet any money that to my family and friends I look exactly the same everyday - but that's not what I see.
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I know what you mean and I don't believe you are imagining it - you know your face better than anyone so minor changes will be very obvious. I learned in my party years that my face sags, my pores expand and skin looks duller or blotchier when I am dehydrated but others really cannot tell. Yes mood and brain chemistry plays a role in perception but it's not the sole explanation.
But your life cannot and should not be entirely predictable - the weather changes from day to day, minor changes in temperature and humidity levels or wind direction are key. You cannot control what micro-organisms you are exposed to and thus how much work your immune system is doing 'behind the scenes'. You also won't sleep the same every night, we all wake up briefly or have vivid dreams/ nightmares which we simply don't recall. You absolutely should not be eating the same on a daily basis, a key aspect of healthy eating is taking in a wide variety of wholefoods. You also should not be doing the same form of exercise day in and day out. Variation ensures that you stress different muscles and joints (and different parts of the muscle) equally, whilst giving the soft tissue a chance to repair any micro-injuries. Unfortunately the older we get the less able our body is to quickly restore homeostasis.  |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:33 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
But what I wanted to address is the subjective nature of your results. when my mood is down. I would bet any money that to my family and friends I look exactly the same everyday - but that's not what I see.
Sorry about droning on everyone - but I just looked in the mirror and I'm in the "withered old hag" faze. |
We have objective as well as subjective results published on the website. We have other results we have not published (I have explained publication cycles in the past and won't repeat myself). I agree that people have perceptual shifts unrelated to external evidence. That's why we test over longer periods of time, and objective as well as subjective testing. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:37 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| That is definitely an interesting theory, Panda. I do know exactly what you mean on the hydration and wrinkle-free look, only to "dry out" and have the wrinkles return a few hours later. Do you think that another ingredient in the product could be helping or do you believe it is the stem cells? I am wondering if we compare ingredients in the 3 major products being used, if we find anything else in common? |
I just visited the booths of several products that claim they can remove wrinkles in minutes. I believe them. Hydration can be very quick in changing appearance. But it doesn't last.
The stem cytokines are clearly providing the major effect. I have had the opportunity here to compare notes with several others who do research and development with stem cells and dermatology. In terms of the basics, we all see the same things. Multiple labs can confirm. There is not doubt on the effect. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:41 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| I just visited the booths of several products that claim they can remove wrinkles in minutes. I believe them. Hydration can be very quick in changing appearance. But it doesn't last. |
Exactly, once you "dry out" the wrinkles are right back! |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:48 pm |
| Greetings from IECSC. Barefacedruth has been gathering facts and delivering its message that the industry needs to do a better job of policing itself against false claims and junk science. Surprisingly, we are getting agreement from many vendors as well as attendees, and many have already heard about BFT. Dr George and I are passing out Truth Maters buttons. As mentioned, we even found some fellow stem cell scientists here. |
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Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:55 pm |
| brierrose wrote: |
At 58 I can totally relate to this shape shifting phenomenon!
Also what Panda has said about increased hydration I am aware of after using AnteAGE serum & Accelerator for almost a month now. LifeLine serum for a month prior, so almost 2 months of this stem cell technology.
I am finding skin hydration to be at a deeper level. Skin still feels moist & plumped in the morning and even after washing my face. Skin is also feeling very calm & comfortable so there is a definite anti-inflammatory effect from the cytokines.
So this deeper, lasting hydration & anti-inflammatory effect is really making a difference in having more good skin days even this early on in the game. I feel like I'm feeding my skin what it's been needing. |
Deeper level is the key. That's the result of building new matrix. More collagen & soluble proteins also holds more fluids. Inflammation is the enemy as you age. It tends to produce proteases that gobble up your collagen and elastin, leaving your skin thinner, and more prone to dehydration. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:59 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| I just visited the booths of several products that claim they can remove wrinkles in minutes. I believe them. Hydration can be very quick in changing appearance. But it doesn't last. |
Exactly, once you "dry out" the wrinkles are right back! |
And the older you get, the quicker you dry out. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:11 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| And the older you get, the quicker you dry out. |
Yes, unfortunately, that is the truth!  |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:12 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| That is definitely an interesting theory, Panda. I do know exactly what you mean on the hydration and wrinkle-free look, only to "dry out" and have the wrinkles return a few hours later. Do you think that another ingredient in the product could be helping or do you believe it is the stem cells? I am wondering if we compare ingredients in the 3 major products being used, if we find anything else in common? |
Good last question to follow up on. Wonderful idea to do. |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:50 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
,,,on the "mature skin" notion:
The clinical trial results in the septuagenarian age range was good,
but the number of subjects was small (2)...
The seven subjects in the sextagenarian group ...
The higher age groups scored higher also on tone, texture, and disappearance of discoloration & spots. |
Therefore, I think what two seventy year old women think...
As a scientist, I would have thought that you would have at least carried out some kind of skin measurements of your testers - measurements that would show the truth.
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Agree.
Dr.J.
find the booth that promotes ingredients that permanently hydrate and permanently eliminate wrinkles for all elderly (70+ years of age) women.  |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:04 pm |
| Kath91 wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
,,,on the "mature skin" notion:
The clinical trial results in the septuagenarian age range was good,
but the number of subjects was small (2)...
The seven subjects in the sextagenarian group ...
The higher age groups scored higher also on tone, texture, and disappearance of discoloration & spots. |
Therefore, I think what two seventy year old women think...
As a scientist, I would have thought that you would have at least carried out some kind of skin measurements of your testers - measurements that would show the truth.
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Agree.
Dr.J.
find the booth that promotes ingredients that permanently hydrate and permanently eliminate wrinkles for all elderly (70+ years of age) women. |
What is clear from this show is that stem cytokines is the most advanced ingredient out there. Confirmed my suspicions!
Let me say once again say we have measurements and will be publishing more of them in the future. As for 70 year old ladies (my favorite demographic) , we have a number of users in this age category, and they are daily telling us about the good results they are achieving. But permanent elimination of all wrinkles for 70+ year olds is not a realistic goal for an anti-aging product. If you hear anyone promoting such claims, barefacedruth would like to contact them for confirmation. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:10 pm |
| I think the point Keliu is making is, that self assesment isn't a very reliable scientific measure. Measurements of wrinkle depth, wrinkle count, skin thickness....the way things are now, all we have is 'clinically proven' just like the l'Oreal products. |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:30 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| I think the point Keliu is making is, that self assesment isn't a very reliable scientific measure. Measurements of wrinkle depth, wrinkle count, skin thickness....the way things are now, all we have is 'clinically proven' just like the l'Oreal products. |
Self assessment has a role, but we agree that objective measures are good, that's why we do them. Wrinkle depth is not my favorite, as it can be easily manipulated unless done blinded, and lots of "temporary" things can affect wrinkle depth. You can fill them with dirt, and a contour map wouldn't know the difference. Wrinkle counting means you can tell the difference between a fine line and a wrinkle, which is itself subjective. Even skin thickness can be tricky unless you are doing biopsies and even then under controlled conditions. Then there are the proponents (I just met one) of the position that global assessments are better because they really are getting at overall results, not trying to parse them into easily measurable bits. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:37 pm |
| Back to the buzzing world of beauty. My favorite so far is the instant breast lift. It really works! |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:49 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| I think the point Keliu is making is, that self assesment isn't a very reliable scientific measure. Measurements of wrinkle depth, wrinkle count, skin thickness....the way things are now, all we have is 'clinically proven' just like the l'Oreal products. |
Yes!!! That was the point I was trying to make in my long-winded fashion. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:39 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Inflammation is the enemy as you age |
Dr. Setterfield appears to come bearing the same message.
BFG |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:42 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| My favorite so far is the instant breast lift. It really works! |
Details please.
BFG |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:48 pm |
| If the beauty industry could be viewed as an early economic indicator, then there is good news for the economy. This place is booming, not just with estheticians, but also investors, distributors. Very positive mood. Haven't seen that in a while. Harbinger of god things to come? |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:52 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| My favorite so far is the instant breast lift. It really works! |
Details please.
BFG |
Tape developed by 3M. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:54 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Harbinger of god things to come? |
The second coming? no
Economic recovery? likely
BFG |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:55 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tape developed by 3M. |
That's an old trick, costing less than a dime.
BFG |
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:11 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tape developed by 3M. |
That's an old trick, costing less than a dime.
BFG |
I think 3M charges more because of the special shape and all. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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