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Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:38 pm  |
One more thing, DrJ: I've been looking up some of the papers you've recommended. They've been great, thanks.
The one thing, however, is that I've been having a hard time finding any of the papers you said you authored as a scientist or the books that you contributed to. I've found a Jeremy D Sanderson (goes under the initials JD Sanderson) on PubMed who published prolifically in a somewhat similar field, but nothing unequivocally that I can tell is yours. Can you give us some of the names of your publications and books? Or, could you send us a link online to the publication section of your CV?
Thanks in advance. |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:47 pm |
| CookieD wrote: |
| Tiny wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Had a conference with a colleague who studies differential secretomes and transcriptomes of stem cells. This gets down to gene expressions. Lots of new insight into the difference between adipose-derived (AD) and bone marrow-derived (BM)MSC's, in culture, and in vivo. AD-MSC's are far more tuned to inflammatory responses, and inflammatory chemokines, according to their transcriptome. They communicate extensively with mast (immune) cells in fat tissue, involving stimulatory cytokines. They may in fact be responsible for the inflammatory aspect of obesity, that can lead to diabetes, metabolic syndrome, atherosclerosis, etc. Turns out that conditioned medium from adipose stem cells can be "net inflammatory" vs anti-inflammatory (depends on how you treat them in culture). The secretome is geared toward high TGF-beta 1&2 whereas BM-MSC secrete more TGF-beta 3. So, while they are cheaper, and grow more easily in culture, AD-MSC's seem not to be the anti-inflammatory scar-free TGF-beta 3 rich healing powerhouses that BM-MSC's represent. There is also a whole chondrogenic vs. lipogenic orientation aspect to this that speaks to collagen production.
I'm going to pull all this information into a post in the near future. For all you science nerdy types. |
Yes, I think I saw a paper on this in the past few months where the media from adipocytes harvested from obese animals was then applied to lean adipocytes and the net result was an impairment in insulin pathways. That's why I asked earlier about the important distinction between BM- vs AD-MSCs, as I suspect the difference matters quite a bit! |
Another key difference that a colleague pointed out this week is that adipose stem cells are generally retrieved from 40-60 year old humans, the average age for receiving liposuction procedures (the cells are derived from the fat that is suctioned). In contrast the average age for bone marrow aspirate donors is 22 years (they are recruited from the athletic departments of universities). This means the starter cells in ADSC cultures are considerable older than those in BMSC cultures,and have already undergone a number of generations. Since stem cells themselves age (yes, ever get shorter telomeres) it may have something to to with the difference in cytokines expressed. In particular ones like IL-8 which is part of what differentiates fetal wound healing (scarless) from older adult healing (more fibrotic) as well as the TGF-beta family. |
Are you saying in the state of California that the average age for lipo is 40-60! who are you kidding, every teenager that has parents with money is not only getting lipo but nice ta ta's to go along with their new flat tummies and hips!
CookieD pointed out that the Re Luma's founders are from UCLA's acclaimed lab, the one your photo is of on Cellese, she actually asked if yall all knew each other, actually good question, do you?
I would think, most students there are 18-23? So why in the world would you infer you only use young people and all other companies that are not using "bone marrow" use old people. |
Tiny this is not what I said at all. Below is part of the post. As you can see I said nothing about UCLA and I said someone on the Cellese thread said the building on the Cellese site was the Henry Samueil School of Engineering. Just wanted to clear this up because I know you are a stickler for details.
Both Cellese and Reluma are in Irvine CA and 3 out of the 6 people on Reluma scientific advisory board work at UC Irvine. I think this is where Dr. J works ( he's never said this but I live very close to here and from what he's said it's the only place that it could be) Also one of the guys on the board works at the Henry Samueli School of Engineering at UCI which Someone on the Cellese thread said was the building on Cellese website. The only reason I think this is interesting is because this is a fairly small world and I'm sure they all know each other. |
I didn't mean to miss quote you, I was working from memory on you thinking they may know each other! I also named the building wrong (seems it is UCI, no UCLA), thanks for correcting me. I was actually hoping they did know each other! |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:59 pm |
| cm5597 wrote: |
I'm interested in jom's and Darkmoon's conflicting results.
Jom, do you have any remaining milia on your face or elsewhere on your body? If so, would you be willing to repeat the experiment on half of the milia and leave the other half alone and let us know what happens? How many disappeared?
Darkmoon, do you have a picture of the callous, can you describe it, or is there is a similar picture online? How is your finger doing now? I suspect you won't be using AnteAGE again but if you do just to re-test things, let us know what happens (hey, I've been know to repeat experiments that I know will end in disaster  )
DrJ, assuming that both of their results may have been due to AnteAGE, how should we interpret this? I mean it's one thing to get a neutral result and quite another to potentially get strong negative effects. In the context of cytokines, here's what I'm thinking: aren't there a couple cytokines--I think someone told me that it was one of the interleukins, maybe IL6, IL8 or IL10...can't remember, not my field--that can act as either PRO-INFLAMMATORY or ANTI-INFLAMMATORY depending on the conditions? In other words, I'm wondering if it's not only the conditions applied to the stem cells (e.g. media) that matter but also the innate inflammatory state within someone's body.
As an analogy, I heard Dr. Paul Clayton say the reason some people have good reactions to vitamin A and some have bad has to do with whether there is enough vitamin C and E since they form a anti-oxidant chain and if A/C/E aren't in a reasonable balance, an excess of Vit A or E (but not of Vit. C) can cause more damage than good. So the idea is that the internal "status" or "conditions" matter.
So I'm wondering if you can comment here on whether the the environment of the cells within a person's body determines whether the reaction to the MSC cytokines is favorable and whether there are any papers on this (even something along the lines of good results at moderate doses but bad ones at high doses)....
So I guess this is a half-science, half-"let's apply to this to people's personal experiences with the product" post...  |
Hi cm5597, To be honest, I have said all I have to say about the formation of callouses and their putative relationship to stem cell derived cytokines (there is none). You can read that here: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=46163. Not be unkind to anyone, but I'm afraid the analogy here is more like "half-science/half science-fiction". You will just have to trust me that after 30 years in clinical and research medicine, I can tell the difference. I won't waste any more time dealing with fertile imaginations.
But your question is actually a very good one. because your body already contains cytokines, and when they are added exogenously they do meet the current environment In your skin). So e.g. if you are healing a wound, and dominated by inflammatory cytokines, MSC-derived cytokines will calm the inflammation. Can they do the opposite? No. Cytokines always work the same way. Can you apply too much (overdose?). Not really, because they work physiologically. Limits and controls are built in. You are really just replicating what your body wants to do, and was well suited to doing, when you were much younger. Now systemically cytokines can be a problem (the wrong ones, the wrong place, the wrong time, in huge amounts). But that doesn't take place when you apply them to skin. It happens if your body gets overwhelmed by infection or some other major stress. Even in that circumstance, MSC-derived anti-inflammatory 'kines could only help. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:48 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| ...But your question is actually a very good one. because your body already contains cytokines, and when they are added exogenously they do meet the current environment In your skin). So e.g. if you are healing a wound, and dominated by inflammatory cytokines, MSC-derived cytokines will calm the inflammation. Can they do the opposite? No. Cytokines always work the same way. Can you apply too much (overdose?). Not really, because they work physiologically. Limits and controls are built in. You are really just replicating what your body wants to do, and was well suited to doing, when you were much younger. Now systemically cytokines can be a problem (the wrong ones, the wrong place, the wrong time, in huge amounts). But that doesn't take place when you apply them to skin. It happens if your body gets overwhelmed by infection or some other major stress. Even in that circumstance, MSC-derived anti-inflammatory 'kines could only help. |
Then why is it that everyone isn't having - at a minimum - positive results with the AnteAGE serum? I can understand the accelerator since it contains other actives that may cause a bad reaction. But if the cytokines can only help, why isn't it a sure thing? This is kind of related to my product testing thread. Is there something else - like another active - that gets in the way and blocks the cytokines from doing their job? |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:24 pm |
| Panda1 wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| ...But your question is actually a very good one. because your body already contains cytokines, and when they are added exogenously they do meet the current environment In your skin). So e.g. if you are healing a wound, and dominated by inflammatory cytokines, MSC-derived cytokines will calm the inflammation. Can they do the opposite? No. Cytokines always work the same way. Can you apply too much (overdose?). Not really, because they work physiologically. Limits and controls are built in. You are really just replicating what your body wants to do, and was well suited to doing, when you were much younger. Now systemically cytokines can be a problem (the wrong ones, the wrong place, the wrong time, in huge amounts). But that doesn't take place when you apply them to skin. It happens if your body gets overwhelmed by infection or some other major stress. Even in that circumstance, MSC-derived anti-inflammatory 'kines could only help. |
Then why is it that everyone isn't having - at a minimum - positive results with the AnteAGE serum? I can understand the accelerator since it contains other actives that may cause a bad reaction. But if the cytokines can only help, why isn't it a sure thing? This is kind of related to my product testing thread. Is there something else - like another active - that gets in the way and blocks the cytokines from doing their job? |
I think it's also key to know when people should really expect to see results...it was my understanding that AA would take 3 or more months, but I may be wrong. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:26 pm |
| Personally, I think people expect too much out of a serum (even one with cytokines). Even laser treatments can only deliver moderately effective results. The only way to get totally rejuvenated skin is to have a very invasive laser treatment and have the whole epidermis removed - I've seen amazing results (in magazines) from this type of treatment but it is very scary. Any cosmetic surgeon will tell you the same thing. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:39 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Personally, I think people expect too much out of a serum (even one with cytokines). Even laser treatments can only deliver moderately effective results. The only way to get totally rejuvenated skin is to have a very invasive laser treatment and have the whole epidermis removed - I've seen amazing results (in magazines) from this type of treatment but it is very scary. Any cosmetic surgeon will tell you the same thing. |
Agreed. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:42 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Personally, I think people expect too much out of a serum (even one with cytokines). Even laser treatments can only deliver moderately effective results. The only way to get totally rejuvenated skin is to have a very invasive laser treatment and have the whole epidermis removed - I've seen amazing results (in magazines) from this type of treatment but it is very scary. Any cosmetic surgeon will tell you the same thing. |
I don't know. I'd have to say that I am extremely happy with the serum that I am using, and I really do put a lot of faith in reading all of the studies that DrJ has been posting, so I just don't understand why we are not hearing more rave reviews. It definitely takes time to see full results, but I think you know pretty quickly if something is starting to work. |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:12 pm |
| Panda1 wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Personally, I think people expect too much out of a serum (even one with cytokines). Even laser treatments can only deliver moderately effective results. The only way to get totally rejuvenated skin is to have a very invasive laser treatment and have the whole epidermis removed - I've seen amazing results (in magazines) from this type of treatment but it is very scary. Any cosmetic surgeon will tell you the same thing. |
I don't know. I'd have to say that I am extremely happy with the serum that I am using, and I really do put a lot of faith in reading all of the studies that DrJ has been posting, so I just don't understand why we are not hearing more rave reviews. It definitely takes time to see full results, but I think you know pretty quickly if something is starting to work. |
But your expectations might be different from someone else's. You may have good quality skin for your age already - someone else, even though in the same age group, may not - they may smoke, have a poor diet, spent a life in the sun etc. etc. No serum is going to eradicate deep wrinkles and stretched skin which has been depleted of collagen and elastin.
I think most people on this Forum (including myself) are looking for that one potion that you apply one night and wake up the next morning looking like Cameron Diaz (or whoever takes your fancy). In other words, they have unrealistic expectations. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:03 am |
| Panda1 wrote: |
Then why is it that everyone isn't having - at a minimum - positive results with the AnteAGE serum? I can understand the accelerator since it contains other actives that may cause a bad reaction. But if the cytokines can only help, why isn't it a sure thing? This is kind of related to my product testing thread. Is there something else - like another active - that gets in the way and blocks the cytokines from doing their job? |
1. It is very early days, even the 'gold standard' Retin-A takes months to modify the deeper layers of the skin
2. A small minority will have negative reactions to an ingredient (not just actives) other than the cytokines
3. There isn't a prescription drug in the world that is effective for everyone
4. People are using AnteAGE alongside vastly differing skincare routines and lifestyles (smoking, diet, etc) and at different life stages. |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:22 am |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tiny wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tiny wrote: |
CookieD thought you might know each other. Small world, your both in Irving, CA. |
We're in Irvine, I believe they are in Mission Viejo, further south. Irvine is about 50 miles south of LA. Our local University of California campus is UC Irvine, not UCLA. Irvine is also home to a brand new world class nonprofit anti-aging institute. Nobody from that company is associated with either of these, as far as I can tell. But I could be wrong, you can ask them. |
well I assume thats UCI, Irving then. This must be what Cookie was referring too, sry for my confusion, their board of advisors is all attached to UCI, Irving:
Ranjan Gupta, M.D., Professor and Chair of the Department of Orthopedic surgery at University California Irvine and Professor at the Department of Biomedical Engineering /Henry Samueli School of Engineering also at UCI. Specialized in microsurgery of hand and upper extremities. Research focused on tissue engineering and Schwann cell apoptosis.
Jonathan R. Pirnazar, M.D., Assistant Clinical Professor, UCI, Department of Ophthalmology. Served as Chief Resident and a fellow in Corneal and Refractive Surgery at UCI
Jonathan R. Pirnazar, M.D., Assistant Clinical Professor, UCI, Department of Ophthalmology. Served as Chief Resident and a fellow in Corneal and Refractive Surgery at UCI
ok sry its a bit long, but your paths probably do cross! |
Its a big institution, and we interact mainly with plastic surgeons, dermatologists, stem cell scientists, diabetes researchers. ReLuma's main interest is applications of stem cells as cellular therapy to other conditions (e.g. injecting into knees to repair damaged cartilage, hence the orthopods they relate to; maybe something with vision). We are focused almost entirely on the skin (with some diabetes overlap).
Also, boards of advisors often are only people loosely associated with a company. They are not the people who work for the company, they call them occasionally for advise. I have been on several boards that never called. UCI in fact has a policy prohibiting these relationships being publicized. Maybe different departments handle it differently. |
I was looking at the Henry Samueli School website, and could not find your name in the people's list. Even though it's quite comprehensive, including lab assistants etc.
You do work there, don't you, dr J.? |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:41 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tiny wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tiny wrote: |
CookieD thought you might know each other. Small world, your both in Irving, CA. |
We're in Irvine, I believe they are in Mission Viejo, further south. Irvine is about 50 miles south of LA. Our local University of California campus is UC Irvine, not UCLA. Irvine is also home to a brand new world class nonprofit anti-aging institute. Nobody from that company is associated with either of these, as far as I can tell. But I could be wrong, you can ask them. |
well I assume thats UCI, Irving then. This must be what Cookie was referring too, sry for my confusion, their board of advisors is all attached to UCI, Irving:
Ranjan Gupta, M.D., Professor and Chair of the Department of Orthopedic surgery at University California Irvine and Professor at the Department of Biomedical Engineering /Henry Samueli School of Engineering also at UCI. Specialized in microsurgery of hand and upper extremities. Research focused on tissue engineering and Schwann cell apoptosis.
Jonathan R. Pirnazar, M.D., Assistant Clinical Professor, UCI, Department of Ophthalmology. Served as Chief Resident and a fellow in Corneal and Refractive Surgery at UCI
Jonathan R. Pirnazar, M.D., Assistant Clinical Professor, UCI, Department of Ophthalmology. Served as Chief Resident and a fellow in Corneal and Refractive Surgery at UCI
ok sry its a bit long, but your paths probably do cross! |
Its a big institution, and we interact mainly with plastic surgeons, dermatologists, stem cell scientists, diabetes researchers. ReLuma's main interest is applications of stem cells as cellular therapy to other conditions (e.g. injecting into knees to repair damaged cartilage, hence the orthopods they relate to; maybe something with vision). We are focused almost entirely on the skin (with some diabetes overlap).
Also, boards of advisors often are only people loosely associated with a company. They are not the people who work for the company, they call them occasionally for advise. I have been on several boards that never called. UCI in fact has a policy prohibiting these relationships being publicized. Maybe different departments handle it differently. |
I was looking at the Henry Samueli School website, and could not find your name in the people's list. Even though it's quite comprehensive, including lab assistants etc.
You do work there, don't you, dr J.? |
No, of course not. Whatever gave you that idea? |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:43 am |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
1. It is very early days, even the 'gold standard' Retin-A takes months to modify the deeper layers of the skin |
Not everyone is looking for a deep layer skin modification. I went back to my usual routine after a week of using the ANteAge Serum and within 2 days my skin looks calm and hydrated.
Also, I don't exactly believe that the gold standard even does that modification because after using Retin A for 7 years, once I stop using it, the skin looses its brightness and elasticity within a week. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:42 am |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tiny wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tiny wrote: |
CookieD thought you might know each other. Small world, your both in Irving, CA. |
We're in Irvine, I believe they are in Mission Viejo, further south. Irvine is about 50 miles south of LA. Our local University of California campus is UC Irvine, not UCLA. Irvine is also home to a brand new world class nonprofit anti-aging institute. Nobody from that company is associated with either of these, as far as I can tell. But I could be wrong, you can ask them. |
well I assume thats UCI, Irving then. This must be what Cookie was referring too, sry for my confusion, their board of advisors is all attached to UCI, Irving:
Ranjan Gupta, M.D., Professor and Chair of the Department of Orthopedic surgery at University California Irvine and Professor at the Department of Biomedical Engineering /Henry Samueli School of Engineering also at UCI. Specialized in microsurgery of hand and upper extremities. Research focused on tissue engineering and Schwann cell apoptosis.
Jonathan R. Pirnazar, M.D., Assistant Clinical Professor, UCI, Department of Ophthalmology. Served as Chief Resident and a fellow in Corneal and Refractive Surgery at UCI
Jonathan R. Pirnazar, M.D., Assistant Clinical Professor, UCI, Department of Ophthalmology. Served as Chief Resident and a fellow in Corneal and Refractive Surgery at UCI
ok sry its a bit long, but your paths probably do cross! |
Its a big institution, and we interact mainly with plastic surgeons, dermatologists, stem cell scientists, diabetes researchers. ReLuma's main interest is applications of stem cells as cellular therapy to other conditions (e.g. injecting into knees to repair damaged cartilage, hence the orthopods they relate to; maybe something with vision). We are focused almost entirely on the skin (with some diabetes overlap).
Also, boards of advisors often are only people loosely associated with a company. They are not the people who work for the company, they call them occasionally for advise. I have been on several boards that never called. UCI in fact has a policy prohibiting these relationships being publicized. Maybe different departments handle it differently. |
Ok did some checking, it seems you all actually work in a lot of the same areas, I did not list all the advisors, most of their advisors work hands on in the testing phases of the products, they are not just brains to be asked questions as needed. They focus on Dermatology, Theraputic procedure and Cosmetic Surgery.
I find it amazing that two companies doing the same research and you don't know of each other, I do get UCI is big, but you should both be very interested in what the other is discovering, findings! You are all M.D's in the same field, at the same University. I'd think just the competition of the lab would be enough to know each other. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:44 am |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| Panda1 wrote: |
Then why is it that everyone isn't having - at a minimum - positive results with the AnteAGE serum? I can understand the accelerator since it contains other actives that may cause a bad reaction. But if the cytokines can only help, why isn't it a sure thing? This is kind of related to my product testing thread. Is there something else - like another active - that gets in the way and blocks the cytokines from doing their job? |
1. It is very early days, even the 'gold standard' Retin-A takes months to modify the deeper layers of the skin
2. A small minority will have negative reactions to an ingredient (not just actives) other than the cytokines
3. There isn't a prescription drug in the world that is effective for everyone
4. People are using AnteAGE alongside vastly differing skincare routines and lifestyles (smoking, diet, etc) and at different life stages. |
I agree with all of your points (hence my stance that we make our own truth in skin care). Thanks for stating them so succiently. But, I still have a great deal of faith in this technology. Im not sure how else we can wake up one day and look (sort of) like Cameron Diaz unless it is by supplementing the things that we are losing as we age. Some days I feel like a real Pollyanna  |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:52 am |
| Tiny wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tiny wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Tiny wrote: |
CookieD thought you might know each other. Small world, your both in Irving, CA. |
We're in Irvine, I believe they are in Mission Viejo, further south. Irvine is about 50 miles south of LA. Our local University of California campus is UC Irvine, not UCLA. Irvine is also home to a brand new world class nonprofit anti-aging institute. Nobody from that company is associated with either of these, as far as I can tell. But I could be wrong, you can ask them. |
well I assume thats UCI, Irving then. This must be what Cookie was referring too, sry for my confusion, their board of advisors is all attached to UCI, Irving:
Ranjan Gupta, M.D., Professor and Chair of the Department of Orthopedic surgery at University California Irvine and Professor at the Department of Biomedical Engineering /Henry Samueli School of Engineering also at UCI. Specialized in microsurgery of hand and upper extremities. Research focused on tissue engineering and Schwann cell apoptosis.
Jonathan R. Pirnazar, M.D., Assistant Clinical Professor, UCI, Department of Ophthalmology. Served as Chief Resident and a fellow in Corneal and Refractive Surgery at UCI
Jonathan R. Pirnazar, M.D., Assistant Clinical Professor, UCI, Department of Ophthalmology. Served as Chief Resident and a fellow in Corneal and Refractive Surgery at UCI
ok sry its a bit long, but your paths probably do cross! |
Its a big institution, and we interact mainly with plastic surgeons, dermatologists, stem cell scientists, diabetes researchers. ReLuma's main interest is applications of stem cells as cellular therapy to other conditions (e.g. injecting into knees to repair damaged cartilage, hence the orthopods they relate to; maybe something with vision). We are focused almost entirely on the skin (with some diabetes overlap).
Also, boards of advisors often are only people loosely associated with a company. They are not the people who work for the company, they call them occasionally for advise. I have been on several boards that never called. UCI in fact has a policy prohibiting these relationships being publicized. Maybe different departments handle it differently. |
Ok did some checking, it seems you all actually work in a lot of the same areas, I did not list all the advisors, most of their advisors work hands on in the testing phases of the products, they are not just brains to be asked questions as needed. They focus on Dermatology, Theraputic procedure and Cosmetic Surgery.
I find it amazing that two companies doing the same research and you don't know of each other, I do get UCI is big, but you should both be very interested in what the other is discovering, findings! You are all M.D's in the same field, at the same University. I'd think just the competition of the lab would be enough to know each other. |
Sorry, but you are quite incorrect. The other company does their stem cell work in their own facilities, not on campus. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:02 am |
| Quote: |
| I find it amazing that two companies doing the same research and you don't know of each other, I do get UCI is big, but you should both be very interested in what the other is discovering, findings! You are all M.D's in the same field, at the same University. I'd think just the competition of the lab would be enough to know each other. |
Tiny, dr J. said just earlier that he doesn't work at the university in Irvine. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:15 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I find it amazing that two companies doing the same research and you don't know of each other, I do get UCI is big, but you should both be very interested in what the other is discovering, findings! You are all M.D's in the same field, at the same University. I'd think just the competition of the lab would be enough to know each other. |
Tiny, dr J. said just earlier that he doesn't work at the university in Irvine. |
Thanks Lotusesther,
I am now really  ! He said he'd ask them to the mall (at the University) for coffee!
oh and to clear up Dr. J statement that , I was mistaken:
I was not referring to the other Company at the University, I was referring only to their Advisors (who do a lot of testing and research for them) are at and or tied to the University. Should be a small tight knit little community regarding this ground breaking research, was my point! Obviously its not. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:26 am |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
| I've been using the serum for 6 days day and night, and so far I have nothing to report. I notice absolutely no difference in my skin, no reduction in redness, no increased hydration or plumpness. In fact, I've noticed much more difference from using a sample of the new $20 Paula's Choice Natural moisturizer for 2 days than from a whole week of using the serum. Very disappointing, I must say. |
You may have a refund, of course. Do you have problems with skin dryness generally? Did you use any other products in the last six days? |
Day 1
AM: Olay sensitive wash, AnteAGe serum, a bit of tinted Moisturizer with SPF if going outside
PM: Olay wash, AnteAge serum
Day 2: same
Day 3: PM: AnteAge Serum, Retin A 2 hours later
Day 4: Paula's Choice Moisturizing mask during the day, PM: same as Day 1
Day 5: same as Day 1
Day 6: same as Day 4
Day 7: used Cure face gel, applied the AnteAge serum, face stung like crazy, washed it off, and applied the Paula's Choice Natural Moisturizer instead, skin is hydrated and calm.
I have skin dryness only occasionally, usually on days after using Retin A. That's why I don't use moisturizers regularly, only serums. |
It's your skin, and you can do what you want to it. But in terms of biological anti-aging serums, your expectations are such that you are going to be disappointed. Effects take many weeks, and are gradual. Anything else is a hydrational shift. If that's all you want, then you should stick to cheap products with good moisturizers.
Before you started AnteAGE serum, you were saying that your skin doesn't need moisturization, you produce all you need naturally. You then used AVST2 and found it to be over-moisturizing, and your skin was not happy, that you would wash it off and feel drier. The next day your started AnteAGE serum (Monday, July 11 - your time line is wrong, it was the 6th day, they day you posted here to complain). It's not a surprise that you didn't feel moisturized. You yourself had already described the rebound effect of over-moisturization. You concurrently used vitamin A. Then on the sixth day (Saturday Jun 16) you applied Cure, not once but twice, saying your skin was raw and even a simple cream "burns like hell". Then you say you weren't happy with AnteAGE.
I am not criticizing - as I said it's your skin. But I have borrowed your brief story as an example of how not to test a new product, certainly not one that is rejuvenating by design.
The skin remembers, and when you go from one to another you go through adjustments. lack of moisturizing sensory effects could be rebound from over-moisturization, as this lady herself points out. Five days is not enough, that is conventional wisdom, and I have heard many times from you sophisticated users here. Then to add something like Cure to the mix (you forgot to mention that at the time of your complaint, it was the sixth day, and you were telling us about your six-day experience). I've read the user experience on this. Many get a stinging, raw face reaction.
Again, happy to refund, not a problem, just wanted to use this as a teaching opportunity. And no disrespect meant to you. |
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Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:38 am |
| DrJ wrote: |
| just wanted to use this as a teaching opportunity. |
Wow, you take your time to prove something to me. I just want to let you know that my own experience is the highest authority in my life. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:45 am |
What I don't understand is, on the one hand we hear that the serum is so very soothing and healing after a derma roll, but on the other hand it stings after exfoliation?
How can that be? |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:48 am |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| just wanted to use this as a teaching opportunity. |
Wow, you take your time to prove something to me. I just want to let you know that my own experience is the highest authority in my life. |
I respect that. And as I said, I borrowed you as a "teaching moment" for others. Hope you don't mind, and again no disrespect, just trying to make a general point. You are welcome to disagree. |
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Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:50 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
What I don't understand is, on the one hand we hear that the serum is so very soothing and healing after a derma roll, but on the other hand it stings after exfoliation?
How can that be? |
It's a chemical exfoliant. You are killing cells en masse. The whole surface. Exposing tiny nerves. |
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Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:57 am |
| DrJ wrote: |
Before you started AnteAGE serum, you were saying that your skin doesn't need moisturization, you produce all you need naturally. You then used AVST2 and found it to be over-moisturizing, and your skin was not happy, that you would wash it off and feel drier. The next day your started AnteAGE serum (Monday, July 11 - your time line is wrong, it was the 6th day, they day you posted here to complain). It's not a surprise that you didn't feel moisturized. You yourself had already described the rebound effect of over-moisturization. You concurrently used vitamin A. Then on the sixth day (Saturday Jun 16) you applied Cure, not once but twice, saying your skin was raw and even a simple cream "burns like hell". Then you say you weren't happy with AnteAGE. |
With all due respect, but the story you gathered from bits and pieces, is not entirely correct. But I do not want to waste my time defending myself since we are not exactly in a kindergarten.
Let's assume that I was testing this product incorrectly, then the probability that I have tested all other products incorrectly is quite high. That implies that I must have inaccurately tested Retin A, Vit C Serum, etc. Or was your product the only one that I failed to test properly? I doubt that. I am a faithful and satisfied user of many products, why would I have an intention of not testing your product the way I tested others? I was being honest right at the beginning about my expectations. I wanted ( and still want) to find a very good calming product. The AnteAGe serum stung my face like hell 4 hours after Cure. And that you mentioned in your story, what you haven't mentioned is that after I washed the AnteAGe off, I applied another moisturizer and my face felt calm and happy. Go back and re-read the thread, if you care so much.
You seem to be very attached to your product as though you have no confidence in it. Let people have negative experiences as well as positive without forcing them to defend themselves. Permit people to feel whatever they feel toward your product. I have no reason to like Valmont Renewing pack (which is even more expensive than the ANteAge serum), for instance, and not to like your product. I want to feel good about using a product no matter what others say about it. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:16 am |
| Tiny wrote: |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I find it amazing that two companies doing the same research and you don't know of each other, I do get UCI is big, but you should both be very interested in what the other is discovering, findings! You are all M.D's in the same field, at the same University. I'd think just the competition of the lab would be enough to know each other. |
Tiny, dr J. said just earlier that he doesn't work at the university in Irvine. |
Thanks Lotusesther,
I am now really ! He said he'd ask them to the mall (at the University) for coffee!
oh and to clear up Dr. J statement that , I was mistaken:
I was not referring to the other Company at the University, I was referring only to their Advisors (who do a lot of testing and research for them) are at and or tied to the University. Should be a small tight knit little community regarding this ground breaking research, was my point! Obviously its not. |
Dr. J said he doesn't work at the Henry Samueli school which I "assume" is a building/department on the campus of UCI. As I said earlier "someone" on a thread said a building on the Cellese site "looked" like the Samueli building. I don't think it was ever verified. Since I was the person originally quoted I just wanted to clear this again. This is like a game of telephone were the information is not quite what is being said.
ETA Just reread this statement and it could sound a little harsh but this is how rumors get started and I don't want to be in involved so just trying to clear this up. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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