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Sun May 20, 2012 4:26 am  |
| Quote: |
| Isn't this overkill - |
In more ways than one... |
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If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun May 20, 2012 6:46 pm |
| DragoN wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Isn't this overkill - |
In more ways than one... |
Hmmm... A mystery wrapped in an enigma? Very inscrutable. |
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Sun May 20, 2012 7:56 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| DragoN wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Isn't this overkill - |
In more ways than one... |
Hmmm... A mystery wrapped in an enigma? Very inscrutable. |
1.5 mm roll. I loathe it. It's effective.
AnteAge serum on top, AnteAge Accelerator...and for good luck KNNGF2. First two, smooth as silk, last one, stung like heck.
AM: Skin is still red and sensitive. Typical. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 21, 2012 7:38 am |
| DragoN wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| DragoN wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Isn't this overkill - |
In more ways than one... |
Hmmm... A mystery wrapped in an enigma? Very inscrutable. |
1.5 mm roll. I loathe it. It's effective.
AnteAge serum on top, AnteAge Accelerator...and for good luck KNNGF2. First two, smooth as silk, last one, stung like heck.
AM: Skin is still red and sensitive. Typical. |
Dermatology Board level question of the day. What percentage of the effect of dermarolling is due to "controlled damage" mobilizing endogenous repair systems, and what percent is due to deep penetration of actives resulting from creating temporary direct access channels through the stratum corneum? |
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Mon May 21, 2012 9:19 am |
| DrJ wrote: |
| DragoN wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| DragoN wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Isn't this overkill - |
In more ways than one... |
Hmmm... A mystery wrapped in an enigma? Very inscrutable. |
1.5 mm roll. I loathe it. It's effective.
AnteAge serum on top, AnteAge Accelerator...and for good luck KNNGF2. First two, smooth as silk, last one, stung like heck.
AM: Skin is still red and sensitive. Typical. |
Dermatology Board level question of the day. What percentage of the effect of dermarolling is due to "controlled damage" mobilizing endogenous repair systems, and what percent is due to deep penetration of actives resulting from creating temporary direct access channels through the stratum corneum? |
Extra credit - how long does it take those channels to close back up? |
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Mon May 21, 2012 9:52 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
I think giving the samples a test run would be the best option to see just how you react. Nobody ever really knows without trying, one reason I like samples even without sensitive skin!  |
DM, how is your trial of AnteAge products going? We know it does not irritate your eye area, anything else to report? |
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Mon May 21, 2012 10:20 am |
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| What percentage of the effect of dermarolling is due to "controlled damage" mobilizing endogenous repair systems, and what percent is due to deep penetration of actives resulting from creating temporary direct access channels through the stratum corneum? |
Extra credit - how long does it take those channels to close back up? |
1. 206%-1000% increase in fibers, Dry roll. 40% increase after one treatment in stratum spinosum = thicker skin.
2. Depends what they are.[ TGF beta is a good one though ]
3. 1 hour. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 21, 2012 11:30 am |
| DragoN wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| What percentage of the effect of dermarolling is due to "controlled damage" mobilizing endogenous repair systems, and what percent is due to deep penetration of actives resulting from creating temporary direct access channels through the stratum corneum? |
Extra credit - how long does it take those channels to close back up? |
1. 206%-1000% increase in fibers, Dry roll. 40% increase after one treatment in stratum spinosum = thicker skin.
2. Depends what they are.[ TGF beta is a good one though ]
3. 1 hour. |
TGF-beta-3 to be exact.
1 hour is about right.
The answer to Q#1 is anybody's guess, but let's design an experiment.
Control group - roll alone
Exper. group - roll + AnteAge
measure thickness, what else?
maybe some key cytokines?
what depth?
once or a series?
How about a split face experiment? |
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Mon May 21, 2012 4:45 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Extra credit - how long does it take those channels to close back up? |
I'm sure I read somewhere that the channels were open for about one hour after rolling - I have no idea if that is correct though.
As to your other question - has anyone actually conducted a study on the difference of SCI with and without actives? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 21, 2012 4:47 pm |
| DragoN wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| What percentage of the effect of dermarolling is due to "controlled damage" mobilizing endogenous repair systems, and what percent is due to deep penetration of actives resulting from creating temporary direct access channels through the stratum corneum? |
Extra credit - how long does it take those channels to close back up? |
1. 206%-1000% increase in fibers, Dry roll. 40% increase after one treatment in stratum spinosum = thicker skin.
2. Depends what they are.[ TGF beta is a good one though ]
3. 1 hour. |
Whoops! Posted before I read replies. Where have you found this info Dragon?? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 21, 2012 4:50 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
TGF-beta-3 to be exact.
1 hour is about right.
The answer to Q#1 is anybody's guess, but let's design an experiment.
Control group - roll alone
Exper. group - roll + AnteAge
measure thickness, what else?
maybe some key cytokines?
what depth?
once or a series?
How about a split face experiment? |
DrJ - How exactly are we supposed to measure the thickness of our skin or an increase in cytokines when you have stated that you haven't been able to conduct the same tests for AnteAGE because the equipment is so expensive? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 21, 2012 7:50 pm |
Keliu,
Specific trials based on the types of actives used post roll and the effect? Haven't found those.
The 206-1000 % comes from a study that was comparing Dry rolling, and then platelets extracted from the patient centrifuged and the supernatant then applied directly after and left to sink in. Incredibly rapid rate of healing.
Do me and yourself a favor. Read the information below for yourself. The answers to the vast majority of questions that are asked re: skin needling and rolling are answered there. The other PCIT study you already have and are well aware of.
http://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/2008/04000/Percutaneous_Collagen_Induction_Therapy__An.46.aspx
Percutaneous Collagen Induction Therapy: An Alternative Treatment for Scars, Wrinkles, and Skin Laxity
Abstract
Background: Skin laxity, rhytides, and photoaging are generally treated by ablative procedures that injure or destroy the epidermis and its basement membrane, at least in the beginning, and subsequently lead to fibrosis of the papillary dermis. The ideal treatment would be to preserve the epidermis and promote normal collagen and elastin formation in the dermis. Percutaneous collagen induction takes us closer to this ideal.
Methods: The authors performed a retrospective analysis of 480 patients in South Africa and Germany with fine wrinkles, lax skin, scarring, and stretch marks treated with percutaneous collagen induction using the Medical Roll-CIT to produce tighter, smoother skin. Most patients had only one treatment, but some have had as many as four treatments. Patients were prepared with topical vitamin A and C cosmetic creams for a minimum of 4 weeks preoperatively.
Results: On average, patients in Germany rated their improvement between 60 and 80 percent better than before the treatment. Histologic examination was carried out in 20 patients and showed a considerable increase in collagen and elastin deposition at 6 months postoperatively. The epidermis demonstrated 40 percent thickening of stratum spinosum and normal rete ridges at 1 year postoperatively.
Conclusions: Percutaneous collagen induction was started in 1997 and has proved to be a simple and fast method for safely treating wrinkles and scars. As opposed to ablative laser treatments, the epidermis remains intact and is not damaged. For this reason, the procedure can be repeated safely and is also suited to regions where laser treatments and deep peels cannot be performed.
Greater Collagen Deposition with the Microneedle Therapy System Than with Intense Pulsed Light
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.01882.x/full
Title: Micro Needling and Injecting Platelet Rich Plasma to Enhance Collagen Synthesis and Skin Tightening.
http://www.hairphil.com/downloads/prp.pdf
Percutaneous Collagen Induction: Minimally Invasive Skin Rejuvenation without Risk of Hyperpigmentation—Fact or Fiction?
http://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/2008/11000/Percutaneous_Collagen_Induction__Minimally.29.aspx
N=1 with AnteAge, day 2 post roll and skin is 95% back to normal. Usually takes about 4-5 days.
Nicely done DrJ. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 21, 2012 8:10 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
TGF-beta-3 to be exact.
1 hour is about right.
The answer to Q#1 is anybody's guess, but let's design an experiment.
Control group - roll alone
Exper. group - roll + AnteAge
measure thickness, what else?
maybe some key cytokines?
what depth?
once or a series?
How about a split face experiment? |
DrJ - How exactly are we supposed to measure the thickness of our skin or an increase in cytokines when you have stated that you haven't been able to conduct the same tests for AnteAGE because the equipment is so expensive? |
Please point out where I said that. It would be most odd since we measure cytokines and skin thickness is best measured in punch biopsies which we do. |
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Mon May 21, 2012 8:15 pm |
| DragoN wrote: |
N=1 with AnteAge, day 2 post roll and skin is 95% back to normal. Usually takes about 4-5 days.
Nicely done DrJ. |
THAT is so very COOL.  Love those BM-MSC's. |
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Mon May 21, 2012 11:41 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
TGF-beta-3 to be exact.
1 hour is about right.
The answer to Q#1 is anybody's guess, but let's design an experiment.
Control group - roll alone
Exper. group - roll + AnteAge
measure thickness, what else?
maybe some key cytokines?
what depth?
once or a series?
How about a split face experiment? |
DrJ - How exactly are we supposed to measure the thickness of our skin or an increase in cytokines when you have stated that you haven't been able to conduct the same tests for AnteAGE because the equipment is so expensive? |
Please point out where I said that. It would be most odd since we measure cytokines and skin thickness is best measured in punch biopsies which we do. |
I'm referring to an exchange between us some time back when I asked whether it was possible to do a Visia Skin Analysis (or similar) to measure collagen growth etc on the testers who trialled AnteAGE. You said that the testing equipment was too expensive and then I suggested that perhaps you could liaise with a clinic who had the equipment and who was selling your product.
I didn't realise that an improvement in skin quality could be measured by a skin biopsy. If this is the case, wouldn't it have been a good idea to have done before and after biopsies of your testers' skin instead of just relying on subjective opinions. Or have you done this and I have missed the results? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue May 22, 2012 7:25 am |
| Dark Moon....I am also interested in you progress with AnteAGE. Any updates to report? |
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Tue May 22, 2012 9:09 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
TGF-beta-3 to be exact.
1 hour is about right.
The answer to Q#1 is anybody's guess, but let's design an experiment.
Control group - roll alone
Exper. group - roll + AnteAge
measure thickness, what else?
maybe some key cytokines?
what depth?
once or a series?
How about a split face experiment? |
DrJ - How exactly are we supposed to measure the thickness of our skin or an increase in cytokines when you have stated that you haven't been able to conduct the same tests for AnteAGE because the equipment is so expensive? |
Please point out where I said that. It would be most odd since we measure cytokines and skin thickness is best measured in punch biopsies which we do. |
I'm referring to an exchange between us some time back when I asked whether it was possible to do a Visia Skin Analysis (or similar) to measure collagen growth etc on the testers who trialled AnteAGE. You said that the testing equipment was too expensive and then I suggested that perhaps you could liaise with a clinic who had the equipment and who was selling your product.
I didn't realise that an improvement in skin quality could be measured by a skin biopsy. If this is the case, wouldn't it have been a good idea to have done before and after biopsies of your testers' skin instead of just relying on subjective opinions. Or have you done this and I have missed the results? |
Not purchasing a visia system is really not at all the same as not measuring cytokines or other skin parameters. Many practitioners do not feel that the results of Visia translate to useful accurate data. We have lots of things we haven't yet shared; the work goes on. |
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Tue May 22, 2012 9:31 am |
| SOME data would be helpful though, either skin punches or visia. Or before/after pictures. Or skin analysis through silicone moulding. Anything. |
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Tue May 22, 2012 12:35 pm |
| Just wanted to mention that while my mom is using the products and has no adverse reaction, she needs to use double the recommended amount - she has a very dry skin and it sinks right in, so in order to cover the entire area (face, neck+), she needs to use 2 more pumps then instructed. |
_________________
Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Tue May 22, 2012 12:50 pm |
| sigma wrote: |
| Just wanted to mention that while my mom is using the products and has no adverse reaction, she needs to use double the recommended amount - she has a very dry skin and it sinks right in, so in order to cover the entire area (face, neck+), she needs to use 2 more pumps then instructed. |
Hi sigma. Is your Mom doubling both? She might just try doubling the Accelerator - it contains the bulk of the moisturizers. Because skin varies so much, we encourage people to adapt the system to their skin. And it's why we put the Accelerator in a 50 ml bottle, allowing more flexibility. We have people using from 1 to six pumps (and one I know uses one pump and dilutes it with water to 1/2 strength then uses the excess on her neck and hands. Again, dry skin to oily skin, it is possible to adapt. |
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Tue May 22, 2012 12:56 pm |
| sigma wrote: |
| Just wanted to mention that while my mom is using the products and has no adverse reaction, she needs to use double the recommended amount - she has a very dry skin and it sinks right in, so in order to cover the entire area (face, neck+), she needs to use 2 more pumps then instructed. |
Sigma, how long has your mom been using the products? Am curious if you or she is seeing any visible improvement yet? |
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Tue May 22, 2012 4:10 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
TGF-beta-3 to be exact.
1 hour is about right.
The answer to Q#1 is anybody's guess, but let's design an experiment.
Control group - roll alone
Exper. group - roll + AnteAge
measure thickness, what else?
maybe some key cytokines?
what depth?
once or a series?
How about a split face experiment? |
DrJ - How exactly are we supposed to measure the thickness of our skin or an increase in cytokines when you have stated that you haven't been able to conduct the same tests for AnteAGE because the equipment is so expensive? |
Please point out where I said that. It would be most odd since we measure cytokines and skin thickness is best measured in punch biopsies which we do. |
I'm referring to an exchange between us some time back when I asked whether it was possible to do a Visia Skin Analysis (or similar) to measure collagen growth etc on the testers who trialled AnteAGE. You said that the testing equipment was too expensive and then I suggested that perhaps you could liaise with a clinic who had the equipment and who was selling your product.
I didn't realise that an improvement in skin quality could be measured by a skin biopsy. If this is the case, wouldn't it have been a good idea to have done before and after biopsies of your testers' skin instead of just relying on subjective opinions. Or have you done this and I have missed the results? |
Not purchasing a visia system is really not at all the same as not measuring cytokines or other skin parameters. Many practitioners do not feel that the results of Visia translate to useful accurate data. We have lots of things we haven't yet shared; the work goes on. |
Regardless of how the skin is measured - my response was to your initial suggestion above to measure the thickness of our skin in a split face experiment.
My question still stands - how are we supposed to do that?
Maybe I'm starting to sound difficult - but I don't know why you're suggesting this - I expect you to have already done this and to be telling us the results!! |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue May 22, 2012 4:27 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
The answer to Q#1 is anybody's guess, but let's design an experiment.
Control group - roll alone
Exper. group - roll + AnteAge
measure thickness, what else?
maybe some key cytokines?
what depth?
once or a series?
How about a split face experiment?
Regardless of how the skin is measured - my response was to your initial suggestion above to measure the thickness of our skin in a split face experiment.
My question still stands - how are we supposed to do that?
Maybe I'm starting to sound difficult - but I don't know why you're suggesting this - I expect you to have already done this and to be telling us the results!! |
I am not suggesting anything specific - it was really a theoretical discussion of experimental design. A thought experiment, if you will. This helps us all to think about how evidence is gathered, and the value it has. We have not done these particular experiments, although we are beginning to gather anecdotal evidence from medi-spas using AnteAGE as a peri-procedure treatment. But dermatologists & medi-spas don't do rolling (no $ in that) so we are planning our own experiment. Split face for rolling would be challenging for the subjects. |
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Tue May 22, 2012 4:39 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| But dermatologists & medi-spas don't do rolling (no $ in that) so we are planning our own experiment. Split face for rolling would be challenging for the subjects. |
Many skin-clinics offer Dermarolling - it's one of the treatments that is really gaining in popularity. Many would argue that if you want a really effective roll it should be done under the care of a medical person and not done at home. As for there being no money in it - clinics are charging around $300.00 for a treatment - that sounds like pretty good money to me considering that the equipment involved costs around $100 compared to a laser which costs hundreds of thousands. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue May 22, 2012 4:56 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| But dermatologists & medi-spas don't do rolling (no $ in that) so we are planning our own experiment. Split face for rolling would be challenging for the subjects. |
Many skin-clinics offer Dermarolling - it's one of the treatments that is really gaining in popularity. Many would argue that if you want a really effective roll it should be done under the care of a medical person and not done at home. As for there being no money in it - clinics are charging around $300.00 for a treatment - that sounds like pretty good money to me considering that the equipment involved costs around $100 compared to a laser which costs hundreds of thousands. |
There are at least 2 Doctors in Newport Beach offering this service that I know of. One is Anne McNeill MD she charges 450 to 800 for the face and Walton Montegut MD. I am sure there are a lot more if you look around the Internet. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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