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Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:43 pm |
Hi,
I have been using Alpha Hydrox AHA Enhanced Lotion (10% AHA, oil free), for about 3 months, and I must say that my skin is definitely smoother (I was trying to get rid of some forehead lines, but I also had two Palomar Fractional Non-Ablative treatments that have been of huge help), the fine lines on my forehead are almost gone, and my skin doesn't break out as much.
I've been using it morning and night, but since I started using Vitamin C serum, I usually only apply the AHA in the morning, before my sunscreen, or sometimes on the nights I don't use Vitamin C.
I do not use any Retinols or the like yet, but am looking to incorporate a low percentage product, especially for the eye area.
Although I have no complaints about the Alpha Hydrox AHA product, I have read that glycolic acid can be counter productive to anti-aging regimens, despite some people being happy with it for years.
Can anyone tell me if you see any big no-no's on the ingredient list?
Water, Glycolic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide, Sodium Lactate, Green Tea Extract, Carrageenan (Sea Kelp Extract), Panthenol (Vitamin B5), Propylene Glycol, Diazonlidinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, PVM/MA Decadiene Crosspolymer
Any bad experiences with AHA? Any studies showing long-term skin damage?
Thanks! |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:15 pm |
What is the pH of that product, Fitgineer? Could you be more specific about what you have read about GA, where and what claims were made? I wouldn't personally apply parabens to skin that is being actively exfoliated or receiving treatments such as lasers, peels or dermarolling. |
_________________ Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:25 pm |
This might be helpful as much depends on your particular sensitivities and prudent use of good sunscreen:
With increasing research into what causes wrinkles and the effects of photoaging, alpha hydroxy acids have increased greatly in popularity. Alpha hydroxy acids have been used for thousands of years as a skin rejuvenating product. Cleopatra is reported to have bathed in sour mild (lactic acid) to improve her complexion. Now hydroxy acids are a common additive to numerous skin care products including moisturizers, cleanser, toners, and masks.
Alpha Hydroxy Acids Defined
Alpha hydroxy acids are derived from fruit and milk sugars. The most commonly used alpha hydroxy acids are glycolic acid and lactic acid because they have a special ability to penetrate the skin. They also have the most scientific data on their effectiveness and side effects. The following are the 5 major types of alpha hydroxy acids found in skin-care products and their sources:
glycolic acid - sugar cane
lactic acid - milk
malic acid - apples and pears
citric acid - oranges and lemons
tartaric acid - grapes
How Alpha Hydroxy Acids Work
Alpha hydroxy acids work mainly as an exfoliant. They cause the cells of the epidermis to become "unglued" allowing the dead skin cells to slough off, making room for regrowth of new skin. Alpha hydroxy acids may even stimulate the production of collagen and elastin. Alpha hydroxy acids are reported to improve wrinkling, roughness, and mottled pigmentation of photodamaged skin after months of daily application. Alpha hydroxy acids found in skin-care products work best in a concentration of 5% to 8% and at a pH of 3 to 4.
Side Effects of Alpha Hydroxy Acids
The two major side effects of alpha hydroxy acids are irritation and sun sensitivity. Symptoms of irritation include redness, burning, itching, pain, and possibly scarring. People with darker colored skin are at a higher risk of scarring pigment changes with alpha hydroxy acids. The use of alpha hydroxy acids can increase sun sensitivity by 50% causing an interesting dilemma. It appears that alpha hydroxy acids may be able to reverse some of the damage caused by photoaging, but at the same time they make the skin more susceptible to photoaging. It is clear that anyone using alpha hydroxy acids must use a good sunscreen that contains UVA and UVB protection.
FDA Guidelines on Alpha Hydroxy Acids
Because of concerns over the side effects of alpha hydroxy acids, the FDA in 1997 announced that alpha hydroxy acids are safe for use by consumers with the following guidelines:
The AHA concentration is 10% or less
The final product has a pH of 3.5 or higher
The final product must have an effective sunscreen in the formulation or warn people to use sunscreen products.
http://dermatology.about.com/cs/skincareproducts/a/aha.htm |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:39 pm |
Firefox7275 wrote: |
What is the pH of that product, Fitgineer? Could you be more specific about what you have read about GA, where and what claims were made? I wouldn't personally apply parabens to skin that is being actively exfoliated or receiving treatments such as lasers, peels or dermarolling. |
I have found an EDS thread on AHA and pH:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18360
Excerpt from the thread:
Quote: |
AHAs (Glycolic, Lactic, malic, citric, and tartaric are the most common) are basically ineffective over 4.0 pH, to exfoliate the skin the skin, the pH must be below 4 pH. Product percentage must be over 5%. (5% to 8% with a pH of 3- 4 is the minimum level for a daily use AHA, this will not treat scars or rebuild collagen) It should be second or third on the ingredient list to be at least 5%. It can moisturize the skin at any pH, and any level. |
Mine is 10%, with a pH of 4. My understanding is this is the high end pH limit for this product to work.
It was this thread where a member advised staying away from hydroxy acids, as they cause damage in the long run:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6445206&highlight=schultz#6445206
I know I shouldn't believe anything I read, which is why I started the topic.
There are different opinions as to when to use AHA and Vit C if used as part of the same regimen... since I use a 30SPF sunscreen, I apply Vit C at night and AHA in the morning (or AHA both night and morning, if it's on a Vit C off night). Does anyone have better advice that can be justified? |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:44 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
This might be helpful as much depends on your particular sensitivities and prudent use of good sunscreen:
With increasing research into what causes wrinkles and the effects of photoaging, alpha hydroxy acids have increased greatly in popularity. Alpha hydroxy acids have been used for thousands of years as a skin rejuvenating product. Cleopatra is reported to have bathed in sour mild (lactic acid) to improve her complexion. Now hydroxy acids are a common additive to numerous skin care products including moisturizers, cleanser, toners, and masks.
Alpha Hydroxy Acids Defined
Alpha hydroxy acids are derived from fruit and milk sugars. The most commonly used alpha hydroxy acids are glycolic acid and lactic acid because they have a special ability to penetrate the skin. They also have the most scientific data on their effectiveness and side effects. The following are the 5 major types of alpha hydroxy acids found in skin-care products and their sources:
glycolic acid - sugar cane
lactic acid - milk
malic acid - apples and pears
citric acid - oranges and lemons
tartaric acid - grapes
How Alpha Hydroxy Acids Work
Alpha hydroxy acids work mainly as an exfoliant. They cause the cells of the epidermis to become "unglued" allowing the dead skin cells to slough off, making room for regrowth of new skin. Alpha hydroxy acids may even stimulate the production of collagen and elastin. Alpha hydroxy acids are reported to improve wrinkling, roughness, and mottled pigmentation of photodamaged skin after months of daily application. Alpha hydroxy acids found in skin-care products work best in a concentration of 5% to 8% and at a pH of 3 to 4.
Side Effects of Alpha Hydroxy Acids
The two major side effects of alpha hydroxy acids are irritation and sun sensitivity. Symptoms of irritation include redness, burning, itching, pain, and possibly scarring. People with darker colored skin are at a higher risk of scarring pigment changes with alpha hydroxy acids. The use of alpha hydroxy acids can increase sun sensitivity by 50% causing an interesting dilemma. It appears that alpha hydroxy acids may be able to reverse some of the damage caused by photoaging, but at the same time they make the skin more susceptible to photoaging. It is clear that anyone using alpha hydroxy acids must use a good sunscreen that contains UVA and UVB protection.
FDA Guidelines on Alpha Hydroxy Acids
Because of concerns over the side effects of alpha hydroxy acids, the FDA in 1997 announced that alpha hydroxy acids are safe for use by consumers with the following guidelines:
The AHA concentration is 10% or less
The final product has a pH of 3.5 or higher
The final product must have an effective sunscreen in the formulation or warn people to use sunscreen products.
http://dermatology.about.com/cs/skincareproducts/a/aha.htm |
Again, great info, DM! Thanks!
I guess finding the best sun screen for my skin and fighting Australian-like sun is key to preventing sun damage as a result from AHA photo sensitivity.
I also wanted to mention that I did not use AHA after the laser treatment for about a week. The laser intensity was rather mild, so my skin was back to normal, even the acne (side effect) healed in one week. I did ask the aesthetician how long I should wait, and she told me a week. Next time I might wait longer if the intensity is higher... |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:55 pm |
fitgineer,
I am in the same boat with the South Florida sun (tropical)!
I have an 8% cream which is very light almost serum like on application. I do use it about 20 minutes after my LAA serum has absorbed for me I have never had any irritation, and I use a high percentage zinc oxide sunscreen. I know with the FDA regulations mine can't be lower ph than the 3.5 I posted. |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:10 pm |
Fitgineer PMd me the link to the product because he is new to the forum, I thought it would be helpful to have it here.
http://www.neotericcosmetics.com/product-details.aspx?iid=66
Skin will priorise barrier repair in order to keep bacteria out. After superficial healing is complete, the skin will continue to bolster the stratus corneum and produce collagen in the deeper layers. This means you should not assume skin is healed simply because you cannot see any more inflammation or irritation.
I have no idea why Gretchen made that blanket statement, IMO she has some unusual ideas. AFAIK there is no evidence AHAs damage the skin per se, in fact lactic acid is naturally found in a healthy stratus corneum! What is damaging is using these products such that the skin barrier is damaged/ over exfoliation or that you create underlying irriation or inflammation. If the skin barrier is damaged it becomes less able to protect the body from attack by chemicals or UV rays, less able to hold water in. Daily AHAs, like any acid, are photsensitising so use of a high SPF zinc oxide sunscreen is a must - is your sunscreen a physical or chemical one? SPF30 is really not enough to protect you from the sun in a country like Australia, especially if you are using a number of photosensitisers or having laser treatments.
Which form of vitamin C are you using? L-ascorbic acid is irritant/ exfoliating and must be in a low pH formulation to be absorbed. If you wish to continue using AHAs daily, you might consider switching to a non acidic form such as MAP. You might also consider switching from a glycolic to lactic acid product. Lactic acid has humectant as well as keratolytic properties and can form a residue in the skin, which can be reactivated with water - almost slow release! Simply keeping the skin well hydrated optimises the natural exfoliation process. Another option is to switch your daily AHA gel for a weekly light lactic acid peel so that your skin is permitted AHA free 'rest days' in between. If you want to add in retinol which can also be irritant I would certainly be more conservative with the other actives. |
_________________ Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:19 pm |
I won't go there about the "damage", and I always state NOTHING irritates my skin, so what works fine for me may not be the best routine for another.
I do know my skin and I do not have any issues using LAA and AHA both in the AM. |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:32 pm |
Indeed, I had reached my post quota yesterday.
I currently use Aveeno Ageless Vitality SPF30:
http://www.aveeno.com/facialcare/vitality/day-spf30
It is not a physical SPF however. I also have Desert Organics Mineral Sunscreen (Zinc Oxide, Titanium Oxide), 30SPF, but it makes my face look like a gost, it's that white (I guess it makes sense, since it's physical), so I don't use it often.
That is a very smart comment about the skin healing. Hopefully I didn't do too much damage to myself using AHA post laser.
As for the Vitamin C serum, this is it:
http://www.mariobadescu.com/Vitamin-C-Serum
It has 7.5% Ascorbic Acid.
I am not familiar with MAP, but will look into it. And yes, I do want to start using a Retin A as well... Thanks for the advice on switching to a lactic acid product.
By the way, I live in Arizona, but I really feel AZ sun is Australian-like.
Firefox7275 wrote: |
Fitgineer PMd me the link to the product because he is new to the forum, I thought it would be helpful to have it here.
http://www.neotericcosmetics.com/product-details.aspx?iid=66
Skin will priorise barrier repair in order to keep bacteria out. After superficial healing is complete, the skin will continue to bolster the stratus corneum and produce collagen in the deeper layers. This means you should not assume skin is healed simply because you cannot see any more inflammation or irritation.
I have no idea why Gretchen made that blanket statement, IMO she has some unusual ideas. AFAIK there is no evidence AHAs damage the skin per se, in fact lactic acid is naturally found in a healthy stratus corneum! What is damaging is using these products such that the skin barrier is damaged/ over exfoliation or that you create underlying irriation or inflammation. If the skin barrier is damaged it becomes less able to protect the body from attack by chemicals or UV rays, less able to hold water in. Daily AHAs, like any acid, are photsensitising so use of a high SPF zinc oxide sunscreen is a must - is your sunscreen a physical or chemical one? SPF30 is really not enough to protect you from the sun in a country like Australia, especially if you are using a number of photosensitisers or having laser treatments.
Which form of vitamin C are you using? L-ascorbic acid is irritant/ exfoliating and must be in a low pH formulation to be absorbed. If you wish to continue using AHAs daily, you might consider switching to a non acidic form such as MAP. You might also consider switching from a glycolic to lactic acid product. Lactic acid has humectant as well as keratolytic properties and can form a residue in the skin, which can be reactivated with water - almost slow release! Simply keeping the skin well hydrated optimises the natural exfoliation process. Another option is to switch your daily AHA gel for a weekly light lactic acid peel so that your skin is permitted AHA free 'rest days' in between. If you want to add in retinol which can also be irritant I would certainly be more conservative with the other actives. |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:37 pm |
My LAA is a way higher percentage I DIY it and either make 15% or 20%, so yours is very mild by comparison! |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:39 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
My LAA is a way higher percentage I DIY it and either make 15% or 20%, so yours is very mild by comparison! |
Your climate is different only in we are hot and humid sunny, and you are hot and arid sunny! |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:48 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
DarkMoon wrote: |
My LAA is a way higher percentage I DIY it and either make 15% or 20%, so yours is very mild by comparison! |
Your climate is different only in we are hot and humid sunny, and you are hot and arid sunny! |
Oh, no doubt. I was just commenting on the fact that I don't live in Australia, but it doesn't make much of a difference... In AZ, FL, CA, Australia and other similar places there is probably a much higher need for good SPF over a place like Buffalo, NY (where I spent 6 years in college/grad school... the only good thing in terms of that horrible weather was minimal sun damage). |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:46 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
I won't go there about the "damage", and I always state NOTHING irritates my skin, so what works fine for me may not be the best routine for another.
I do know my skin and I do not have any issues using LAA and AHA both in the AM. |
Except you just did! |
_________________ Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:53 pm |
Firefox7275 wrote: |
DarkMoon wrote: |
I won't go there about the "damage", and I always state NOTHING irritates my skin, so what works fine for me may not be the best routine for another.
I do know my skin and I do not have any issues using LAA and AHA both in the AM. |
Except you just did! |
Yes I did sort of, couldn't resist!
Best leave sleeping dogs lie as they say! |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:10 pm |
DarkMoon wrote: |
Yes I did sort of, couldn't resist!
Best leave sleeping dogs lie as they say! |
You misinterpreted my post BTW, tho I can see why you did. The key phrase was "... using these products such that ..." |
_________________ Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:37 pm |
Firefox7275 wrote: |
DarkMoon wrote: |
Yes I did sort of, couldn't resist!
Best leave sleeping dogs lie as they say! |
You misinterpreted my post BTW, tho I can see why you did. The key phrase was "... using these products such that ..." |
Well I suppose I did, but then not for my skin I didn't! |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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