Facial Bone Remodeling... Would this gadget work?
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free skin care · Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:00 pm

Hi Luminosity! I substitute the bone pressure reps for Yamuna at this time. Probably in the future I will combine the two. Very Happy

free skin care · Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:04 pm

Swissmom wrote:

Hi Luminosity! I substitute the bone pressure reps for Yamuna at this time. Probably in the future I will combine the two. Very Happy

Ok, great. That's good to know. I had asked Sean in the FE forum about the Yamuna ball and he felt that using one's hands for pressure reps was superior but if I wanted to add it, I could.

I might continue to get used to pressure reps and then in a month or two add the Yamuna ball. It would be great if she offered a sale!

free skin care · Tue May 01, 2012 1:13 am

How does he rate it as being superior? That doesn't make sense to me?

Luminosity wrote:

Ok, great. That's good to know. I had asked Sean in the FE forum about the Yamuna ball and he felt that using one's hands for pressure reps was superior but if I wanted to add it, I could.

free skin care · Tue May 01, 2012 9:48 am

TheresaMary wrote:

How does he rate it as being superior? That doesn't make sense to me?

Luminosity wrote:

Ok, great. That's good to know. I had asked Sean in the FE forum about the Yamuna ball and he felt that using one's hands for pressure reps was superior but if I wanted to add it, I could.

TheresaMary, he felt that something external (like the Yamuna ball) could cause the body to go into a "defense" mode and resist the stimulation (perceiving the external source as foreign and not natural). Also that by using your hands, you can make micro adjustments by sensing what your body needs. It is a holistic viewpoint and makes sense from that perspective. He was also open to using the ball in conjunction with the manual stimulation, but definitely preferred the hands.

free skin care · Wed May 02, 2012 5:11 am

Sounds a bit odd to me, but who knows. So was he advising to do the Yamuna workout with hands instead of the ball, hmm

.... thats interesting and I hadn't thought of that, but wondering if it would be as relaxing as the ball, because the ball seems to relax my face and I'm not sure my hands would give me same results Sad

free skin care · Wed May 02, 2012 5:47 am

This argument has no logic as far as I'm concerned. You mean that the body responds differently to being massaged with a tool rather than the hands because it's a "foreign object"? Well I use both the Vaculifter and the Lyapko Roller and I don't believe for one moment that my body goes into "defense" mode over either of them. When will people stop dreaming up useless stuff to worry about? What about dry brushing - isn't that supposed to be a holistic approach - nobody seems to worry about the body rejecting that.

free skin care · Wed May 02, 2012 6:33 am

I got pointed to this thread, and had to stop by. Am a little disappointed as it’s a case of “Chinese whispers” where a small part has been taken and its taken on a very different context than that which it was given initially. As anyone who knows me, I like to take into account all factors when it comes to anything and particularly like working holistically with the body. Now what was originally asked of me was where someone was doing an advanced FlexEffect technique for BONE STIMULATION and wanted views with that technique and so its not something we can or should share here and if people are interested and own the kit they can pop over to the forum.

Keliu I’m a little surprised by your comment, but I’m with you in that we have to examine things logically. Does the body respond differently to being massaged with a tool rather than the hands – without doubt YES BUT Not because it’s a foreign object that’s a huge misunderstanding. It responds differently PRIMARILY because when you use your hands, you not only engage the brain (and an external device like a rubber ball will engage the brain but to a much different extent than your own hands) and the reason the hands stimulates more of the brain into the process is because of the nerve endings, which in essence act like sensors that can be used to detect pressure points, or soft or hard tissues, BUT ALSO can apply either a steady force or a varied one. When you use your hands you are fully in control throughout the process, meaning if you press particularly hard at one point and it feels uncomfortable, you can adjust your pressure straight away. With using an object, you don’t have the luxury of nerves or sensors to pick up on the same kind of data that your hands/fingers can, and whilst you can vary the pressure somewhat, it Is to a much smaller ratio than when you are using your hands and that was the original point I made that seems to have jumped to a conclusion that its an “foreign object” – which is vastly different than what was originally said.

I don’t use the vaculifter or lyapko but depending on what the intention of the devices are meant for, its not to say that they shouldn’t be used, nor will it mean that they will respond identically to a person’s hands. I mean we’ve not even began talking or address things like the heat being given off by the hands, the heartbeat echo that can occur and be sensed by tissues etc by the placing of the hands and to date I’ve not found any object that I have seen that produces the same kind of results compared with the hands, and I’ll look at these devices you mention with interest now.

Now with dry brushing – that’s an entirely different conversation topic, but interestingly enough it is very holistic but again you have to look at the purpose behind dry brushing which is both stimulating the lymphatic and exfoliating and increasing the circulation. However, dry brushing with say a synthetic material brush is going to produce very different results than brushing with a natural fibre brush, for one a natural fibre brush won’t scratch the skin to anywhere near the same degree as a synthetic one.

free skin care · Wed May 02, 2012 7:48 am

Lyapko is considered a holistic device, and has multitude of benefits besides cosmetic ones - so definitely a good tool to use.

Vaculifter is a different animal, it's main purpose is to provide lymphatic drainage, improve blood supply and stimulate connective tissues - one of the most effective tools in skincare (as is professional equipment based on the same principals). There was a lot of research done by a Russian expert in skin aging and she had the most fantastic results (with profess, equip.) but she recommends using similar type vacuum cups (she studied it for 15-20 years).

A good analogy would be acupressure - some points are better stimulated with hands and for some the practitioner might use a special finger "cup".

While hands are good as a tool, to use them effectively may require strength that a person may not have, or an awkward position.

So all of these methods are good, but have slight variation, so imho a person should choose what is best for himself.

Just my 2 cents.

free skin care · Wed May 02, 2012 8:57 am

sigma wrote:

Lyapko is considered a holistic device, and has multitude of benefits besides cosmetic ones - so definitely a good tool to use.

Vaculifter is a different animal, it's main purpose is to provide lymphatic drainage, improve blood supply and stimulate connective tissues - one of the most effective tools in skincare (as is professional equipment based on the same principals). There was a lot of research done by a Russian expert in skin aging and she had the most fantastic results (with profess, equip.) but she recommends using similar type vacuum cups (she studied it for 15-20 years).

A good analogy would be acupressure - some points are better stimulated with hands and for some the practitioner might use a special finger "cup".

While hands are good as a tool, to use them effectively may require strength that a person may not have, or an awkward position.

So all of these methods are good, but have slight variation, so imho a person should choose what is best for himself.

Just my 2 cents.

That is said so well... Lovely!

I enjoy my Lyapko roller and feel it has improved my skin texture as well as gives my skin lots of zing. Still haven't bought the vaculifter but it is on my wish list!

And of course I am continuing with FlexEffect and all the incredible benefits it offers. I think I am definitely on the right road, now I just need to enjoy the journey and not be in such a rush to get to the finish line! Very Happy

free skin care · Wed May 02, 2012 9:06 am

SeanySeanUK wrote:

I got pointed to this thread, and had to stop by. Am a little disappointed as it’s a case of “Chinese whispers” where a small part has been taken and its taken on a very different context than that which it was given initially. As anyone who knows me, I like to take into account all factors when it comes to anything and particularly like working holistically with the body. Now what was originally asked of me was where someone was doing an advanced FlexEffect technique for BONE STIMULATION and wanted views with that technique and so its not something we can or should share here and if people are interested and own the kit they can pop over to the forum.

Keliu I’m a little surprised by your comment, but I’m with you in that we have to examine things logically. Does the body respond differently to being massaged with a tool rather than the hands – without doubt YES BUT Not because it’s a foreign object that’s a huge misunderstanding. It responds differently PRIMARILY because when you use your hands, you not only engage the brain (and an external device like a rubber ball will engage the brain but to a much different extent than your own hands) and the reason the hands stimulates more of the brain into the process is because of the nerve endings, which in essence act like sensors that can be used to detect pressure points, or soft or hard tissues, BUT ALSO can apply either a steady force or a varied one. When you use your hands you are fully in control throughout the process, meaning if you press particularly hard at one point and it feels uncomfortable, you can adjust your pressure straight away. With using an object, you don’t have the luxury of nerves or sensors to pick up on the same kind of data that your hands/fingers can, and whilst you can vary the pressure somewhat, it Is to a much smaller ratio than when you are using your hands and that was the original point I made that seems to have jumped to a conclusion that its an “foreign object” – which is vastly different than what was originally said.

I don’t use the vaculifter or lyapko but depending on what the intention of the devices are meant for, its not to say that they shouldn’t be used, nor will it mean that they will respond identically to a person’s hands. I mean we’ve not even began talking or address things like the heat being given off by the hands, the heartbeat echo that can occur and be sensed by tissues etc by the placing of the hands and to date I’ve not found any object that I have seen that produces the same kind of results compared with the hands, and I’ll look at these devices you mention with interest now.

Now with dry brushing – that’s an entirely different conversation topic, but interestingly enough it is very holistic but again you have to look at the purpose behind dry brushing which is both stimulating the lymphatic and exfoliating and increasing the circulation. However, dry brushing with say a synthetic material brush is going to produce very different results than brushing with a natural fibre brush, for one a natural fibre brush won’t scratch the skin to anywhere near the same degree as a synthetic one.

Sean, sorry I used the term "foreign"... I was trying to remember the thread. You described an "external" source such as the Yamuna ball as potentially putting the body on "attack" mode or defense mode and I interpreted your description to mean that the ball would be considered "foreign" to the body. It think that's an honest mistake but I do apologize. I agree that holistic measures are the best route... and yet I think each individual must determine that fine line.

For instance, microdermabrasion... I think in moderation, some external manipulation is going to be tolerated by the body rather well. On the other hand, I tried a high percentage salicylic peel and my skin was not happy at all.

I think the key here is truly listening to the body and acting with intention and love.

free skin care · Wed May 02, 2012 9:22 am

Sure, I recognise that there was no malice or evil intent, but its easy to see how things can easily be misconstrued, and this can create a lot of bad vibes between people. There is some truth in what you say, that the body considers external things as foreign (in the sense that its not of itself) but its never just any one thing, but a combination of factors. For example the varying levels of resistance, intensity, the health of the tissue, the strength of the skin and so on. Its an easy honest mistake to make, but its also one of the reasons I less frequent EDS because I found I was having to straighten out a lot of misconceptions about my postings that were either being twisted to a different meaning or taken completely out of context and it’s a bit of an energetic drainer at times, which is why I try to encourage any training questions to be put in the workshop forums for this very reason.

Likewise the acupressure example isn’t such a great idea, when you consider that acupressure and acupuncture are almost like brother/sister of the same family, they both use the same point but different methods of stimulating them in the context of a broader perspective of the body and its merdians. I’ve actually learned acupressure and continue to learn it both for massage, and also just general health and wellbeing and it is extremely detailed in its application and techniques/methods but whilst some people out there begin using other tools in conjunction with acupressure, its actually changing the basis of a very long existing and established method. I know people who advocate cups, but I also know people who advocate stimulation of points by using light sticks etc. Whilst its not to discredit these methods, because they do have value, to liken them to the origin of the technique is a discredit to it.

You’re correct that whilst a person may require strength, its not to say that any efforts they make will go wasted – THEY WON’T. Likewise in doing the methods, even to their personal max which may be one or two minutes, not only will they stimulate the facial bones, but they’re also be giving their hands/arms a workout too (and not only strengthening but stimulating them etc). Like when you start anything new, it seems strange and unusual – but as time progresses it becomes second nature. I always liken it to riding a bike. Very few people just get on and ride it perfectly, they fall off a few times and then get back on and eventually they can do it without efforts, same is true for anything.

Hope that straightened things out - adios!

free skin care · Wed May 02, 2012 4:05 pm

Sean - it was definitely not my intent to sound harsh! Maybe I need a better understanding of what you mean by "bone remodeling". I thought that the purpose of "massaging" the facial bones was to use the principal of "use it or lose it" - like we exercise our bodies and maybe do weight bearing exercises in order to maintain calcium levels as we age. That is my interpretation - please correct me if I'm wrong.

So I would ask you what statistics do you have which show the difference in facial bone density between faces which have been massaged by the hands and faces which have been massaged by a tool? Do you have actual statistical data which shows that bone density is better maintained by using hands rather than a tool?

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 1:42 am

Sorry Keliu I’m rushing around and don’t have time to answer this in greater depth, but will just say that “bone remodelling” is such a complex subject that incorporates some of your understanding but also much much more, and if you own the FlexEffect kit (which I seem to recall you may do) then you can read all about what Deb has written about it in there. Statistics – there are none, just personal experience for now but who knows. Maybe when science gets interested someone will do a study? I’m still waiting on a good study to be done on facial exercises, but I’m not going to stop doing them because there are none as yet. Ca la vie!

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 4:11 am

SeanySeanUK wrote:

Sorry Keliu I’m rushing around and don’t have time to answer this in greater depth, but will just say that “bone remodelling” is such a complex subject that incorporates some of your understanding but also much much more, and if you own the FlexEffect kit (which I seem to recall you may do) then you can read all about what Deb has written about it in there. Statistics – there are none, just personal experience for now but who knows. Maybe when science gets interested someone will do a study? I’m still waiting on a good study to be done on facial exercises, but I’m not going to stop doing them because there are none as yet. Ca la vie!

Sean - I was under the impression that the medical profession knows a great deal about bone loss - what the rate of it is as we age and what we can do to prevent it. The old adage of "Use it or lose it" definitely has a role to play - not to mention the impact of hormones. Go and ask any dentist about how our teeth, mouth and jaw changes as we age. Whether facial massage can have a positive impact on this, I don't know - but you'll never convince me (without real evidence) that the hands are better than a tool.

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 4:42 am

Keliu –little confused here with your posting as I’ve not said anything about the medical professional not knowing about bone loss? Anyhow I think that I’ve straightened out the misunderstanding re the original comments that were attributed to me, and that’s all I really have time for at present. Not sure why you think I need to ask a dentist about teeth, mouth or jaw changes – I am a FlexEffect trainer and a qualified masseur after all and am more than well aware of the face and how it ages, as well as hormones, diet and lifestyle too.

I’m not aiming to convince you or anyone that hands are the “better” tool, and again its kind of taking the original comments again completely out of context. The original comments were made to someone doing FlexEffect specifically and asking whether a tool could replace the hands to do a specific technique there. That being said, I think its just beating a dead horse now so have got to run!

Keliu wrote:

SeanySeanUK wrote:

Sorry Keliu I’m rushing around and don’t have time to answer this in greater depth, but will just say that “bone remodelling” is such a complex subject that incorporates some of your understanding but also much much more, and if you own the FlexEffect kit (which I seem to recall you may do) then you can read all about what Deb has written about it in there. Statistics – there are none, just personal experience for now but who knows. Maybe when science gets interested someone will do a study? I’m still waiting on a good study to be done on facial exercises, but I’m not going to stop doing them because there are none as yet. Ca la vie!

Sean - I was under the impression that the medical profession knows a great deal about bone loss - what the rate of it is as we age and what we can do to prevent it. The old adage of "Use it or lose it" definitely has a role to play - not to mention the impact of hormones. Go and ask any dentist about how our teeth, mouth and jaw changes as we age. Whether facial massage can have a positive impact on this, I don't know - but you'll never convince me (without real evidence) that the hands are better than a tool.

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 6:22 am

Sean - I think we must be talking at cross-purposes because I don't understand your post either!!! My purpose of bringing up the dental issue was just to highlight the extent of bone loss in the face - I thought the purpose of your "bone remodelling" exercises was supposed to address that issue. So I'm now completely confused as to where you're coming from!

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 7:36 am

Just one more point - I'm also confused at how "personal experience" has anything in determining the state of ones bones. Due to my mother's severe osteoperosis, I have regular bone density tests to determine my bone health. I do do regular bone massage - but how I would be able to tell what was happening internally without the appropriate testing, I have no idea.

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 8:10 am

I have a few minutes to address.

Are hands better tools? They are def. cheaper to use. However, if a person experiences pain, for whatever reason, I'd recommend using a tool for the purpose of stimulating bone as best they can.

Some of our techniques, IMO, are nearly impossible to use a tool, or perhaps foolish to use a tool. Jolting for example.

There are many studies that show that human skin to skin contact is a better option for the support of life. For example. Premi babies. It is recommended by the medical professional that mom and dad get naked from the waste up and hold their naked baby. This improves the babies chances of survival. It's considered superior to say just holding a baby with clothing in between. There are many factors involved here.

Perhaps just love is the most healing factor?

But it's very interesting the expectation of survival of the same baby with all medical procedures equal depends greatly on whether or not there is skin to skin touch.

Does this matter with bone? Do you bones know if you're stimulating them with your own touch, or something synthetic. I'm going to state at this moment, I don't even think that matters. There is KNOW "survival" issue here.

Just stimulate your bones. Internally, and externally. Assuming you have functioning hands use them. They are free. If you want to apply more pressure with a gadget. Go for it. Don' get stupid, bruise yourself and then come complaining. I do find it's easier to hurt yourself when you use a source you don't have full control over. Generally speaking, your brain will stop you from exerting so much pressure on yourself that you injure yourself.

Granted, there also exist some brains that can't even apply those self preserving signals.

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 8:12 am

We’re definitely talking cross purposes here. Bone remodelling is a complex issue and once again I have to point out that what started off my re-entrance at EDS was simply that part of a discussion was reproduced here (and misquoted) and it took on a new meaning. So to simply things lets just say I felt I’ve ironed that out now and hope its clearer for people to understand.

You’re confused at how “personal experience” has anything to do in determining the state of ones bones, well simply your applying the wording I’ve used in a completely different context and I’ve never said that nor suggested it. Perhaps when I have more time available I can write something out, but at the moment I’ve got a pretty manic schedule.

Why don’t you just not use your hands and stick to the devices and wait for the evidence to show up! That keeps things simple and everyone happy doesn’t it.

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 5:06 pm

SeanySeanUK wrote:

Why don’t you just not use your hands and stick to the devices and wait for the evidence to show up! That keeps things simple and everyone happy doesn’t it.

That sounds like a rather snotty reply to me!! I think the points I've raised are perfectly valid - and considering that the OP's original question was whether she could use her gadget rather than her hands to do the FE exercises (because her hands were becoming tired) - I don't think the points I raised were out of place.

Claudia - your comment on flesh to flesh contact with a premmie baby is most valid - but I don't think the principal relates to bone massage. The connection with a baby must be an emotional, nurturing one and that's something on an entirely different level.

As for hurting yourself from using a Vaculifter or Lyapko Roller - this is impossible. It's hardly the same as hitting the bones with a meat mallet!

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 7:04 pm

Keliu wrote:

SeanySeanUK wrote:

Why don’t you just not use your hands and stick to the devices and wait for the evidence to show up! That keeps things simple and everyone happy doesn’t it.

That sounds like a rather snotty reply to me!! I think the points I've raised are perfectly valid - and considering that the OP's original question was whether she could use her gadget rather than her hands to do the FE exercises (because her hands were becoming tired) - I don't think the points I raised were out of place.

Claudia - your comment on flesh to flesh contact with a premmie baby is most valid - but I don't think the principal relates to bone massage. The connection with a baby must be an emotional, nurturing one and that's something on an entirely different level.

As for hurting yourself from using a Vaculifter or Lyapko Roller - this is impossible. It's hardly the same as hitting the bones with a meat mallet!

Re the nurturing... Yes, very important. But I believe a parent can be quite loving and nurturing while clothed. The directions are VERY specific, and come from the medical world. Skin MUST be exposed for touch. It's in the skin to skin contact, and all that that offers. Certain maintenance of body temp, no interference with clothing, or synthetic materials. etc.

Above I had not intended to insinuate that bone remodeling is the same things as helping a baby survive. I was just addressing the idea that skin to skin treatments/stimulation may very well offer certain advantages over synthetic stimulation.

Just quite interesting to note, there is a difference to be had in human health with skin to skin contact vs. synthetic. That's my only point.

Yeah, I can't imagine hurting yourself with a vaculifter. I don't know that it gives a good enough tug to stimulate bone. This is just based on observation of usage. And the lyapko roller is about needles isn't it? Not sure this is enough pressure for bone. Perhaps I'm not understanding that technique.

That said, I've heard of many people trying a variety of "instruments" and doing things that aren't recommended by their makers. Along the lines of why hair dryers now state not to be used in the bathtub, or in water sources.

Funny you mention the meat mallet. Deb talks often of her martial arts training days. They would start a class with a broom stick of sorts and smack the hell out of their arms and legs. All in order to toughen up ALL their tissues.

I recently read an article of a man that was able to shorten his time in a leg cast by a week based on averages, by smacking his cast up and down with a broom stick. Offering vibration and presumably creating additional fibroblasts to the bone.

Several years back I had a handful of flexers talking of their frozen water bottles, and face smacking. So, it's really not that far fetched to find people getting more and more aggressive with tools.

My comments are meant to be general. Obviously, I think we're really onto something at FE with our bone remodeling methods. With ways to impact the bone without getting crazy invasive. In theory not bruising the face and such.

But I do understand the sore, tired, perhaps arthritic hands. Tools, to me, are only necessary if you can't use your hands. Otherwise, they are just an added expense.

And let's face it, nothing about half of what we all do is NECESSARY. So, I say go for it.

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 7:10 pm

luminosity.

I have that rolling ball. And I was just able to find it.

I don't see why you couldn't use it. I'm able to get a considerable amount of pressure from it.

Using my hands is a wee easier, but I tend to blend techniques, and basically can multi task.

I'm able to cross stretch with pressure reps for example...

I use the butts of the palm. Where are you experiencing pain/discomfort in your hands?

free skin care · Fri May 04, 2012 1:40 am

It sounds snotty, well it wasn't intended to be. You’re consistently taking many of my comments completely out of context, and it is evident to me that you’ve made up your mind on this. The OP’s original question was asking about FlexEffect and it was also posted on the FE forum dedicated to Fe training, as it was an FE training question. The issue arose when part of the answer given there (and stress it was only a small part) was misunderstood and misinterpreted here) and you responded to that and made snarky comments pure and simple. I wish the very best and just don’t have time to waste trying to convince you – I’m not here for that!

Keliu wrote:

That sounds like a rather snotty reply to me!! I think the points I've raised are perfectly valid - and considering that the OP's original question was whether she could use her gadget rather than her hands to do the FE exercises (because her hands were becoming tired) - I don't think the points I raised were out of place.

Claudia - your comment on flesh to flesh contact with a premmie baby is most valid - but I don't think the principal relates to bone massage. The connection with a baby must be an emotional, nurturing one and that's something on an entirely different level.

As for hurting yourself from using a Vaculifter or Lyapko Roller - this is impossible. It's hardly the same as hitting the bones with a meat mallet!

free skin care · Fri May 04, 2012 11:39 am

ClaudiaFE wrote:

luminosity.

I have that rolling ball. And I was just able to find it.

I don't see why you couldn't use it. I'm able to get a considerable amount of pressure from it.

Using my hands is a wee easier, but I tend to blend techniques, and basically can multi task.

I'm able to cross stretch with pressure reps for example...

I use the butts of the palm. Where are you experiencing pain/discomfort in your hands?

Claudia, I learn so much from reading your posts, thank you!

Right after my original post, I placed an order for the blue rolling massage ball and just tried it out a couple of days ago... I found it did not roll as smoothly in its socket as I hoped. It was great over clothes and pushing hard along my upper shoulder, but on my face, not so much!

I particularly find that using my hands along my jawline difficult... but... if you are able to cross stretch AND do bone pressure reps at the same time (congrats! that is cool, I never thought of it) then I see that it might be possible to apply less pressure than I was thinking and still get results.

In other words, I've been trying to apply Herculean pressure and feeling some shame that I couldn't make the pressure as deep as I felt it needed to be.

You know, a long time ago I had one of those Shiatsu massagers - the heavy kind with a long handle that gives strong percussive taps wherever applied. It broke a while ago, but the example you shared about Flexers smacking their faces with frozen water bottles is exactly what I was thinking when I first started this thread.

I used to use that percussive massager on my head because it felt good... that was before I knew about face exercises and bone remodeling. It might be fun just to experiment. Though recently I've been trying my hands again with the pressure reps and it's getting easier as I learn how to better apply leverage.

(also I loved the example of the man with the cast.. wow... intriguing)

free skin care · Fri May 04, 2012 1:02 pm

Luminosity wrote:

Claudia, I learn so much from reading your posts, thank you!

Right after my original post, I placed an order for the blue rolling massage ball and just tried it out a couple of days ago... I found it did not roll as smoothly in its socket as I hoped. It was great over clothes and pushing hard along my upper shoulder, but on my face, not so much!

I particularly find that using my hands along my jawline difficult... but... if you are able to cross stretch AND do bone pressure reps at the same time (congrats! that is cool, I never thought of it) then I see that it might be possible to apply less pressure than I was thinking and still get results.

In other words, I've been trying to apply Herculean pressure and feeling some shame that I couldn't make the pressure as deep as I felt it needed to be.

You know, a long time ago I had one of those Shiatsu massagers - the heavy kind with a long handle that gives strong percussive taps wherever applied. It broke a while ago, but the example you shared about Flexers smacking their faces with frozen water bottles is exactly what I was thinking when I first started this thread.

I used to use that percussive massager on my head because it felt good... that was before I knew about face exercises and bone remodeling. It might be fun just to experiment. Though recently I've been trying my hands again with the pressure reps and it's getting easier as I learn how to better apply leverage.

(also I loved the example of the man with the cast.. wow... intriguing)

I think perhaps because of the contours of our faces it doesn't roll so great. But you could still use it to apply pressure. Pick up move.

Ahhh... I see you were concerned that you just aren't pressing hard enough. Well, perhaps our faces could tolerate it, but at this juncture, I'm not so sure extreme pressure is necessary. Or easily accomplished on a regular basis.

Try placing your elbows on a table and using the butts of your palms (who know palms had butts?!) and press in on your jaw line. You should feel some serious pressure, and I believe that to be adequate.

Does that help?

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