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Microneedle Therapy Versus Intense Pulsed Light Lasers

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Barefootgirl
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Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:26 am      Reply with quote
According to this study, performed on mouse skin,
Microneedling is superior to IPL lasers with respect to collagen growth and scar treatment:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.01882.x/abstract

BFG

PS - far cheaper too!
foxe
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Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:16 pm      Reply with quote
That's awesome to read BFG. Too bad I don't use my rollers that often (this might encourage me to get going on it, though)

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DrJ
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Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:28 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
According to this study, performed on mouse skin,
Microneedling is superior to IPL lasers with respect to collagen growth and scar treatment:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.01882.x/abstract

BFG

PS - far cheaper too!


But responses vary with age of subject. These were not old mice. Need to do this study with some humans in their 40's - 50's-60's. I think it will still be superior, at least in younger deciles.
Lacy53
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Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:51 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
According to this study, performed on mouse skin,
Microneedling is superior to IPL lasers with respect to collagen growth and scar treatment:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.01882.x/abstract

BFG

PS - far cheaper too!

A few questions:

1) How thick is mouse dorsal skin vs human facial skin? (MTS 0.5-mm Dermaroller was used)

2) Did the mice have scars? (The study suggests dermarolling is effective for acne scars).

3) Why were results analysed 4 weeks after final treatment?

BTW treatments were performed three times every 3 weeks, and all mice were anesthetized. Here's an interesting article about the differences between mouse and human skin (skip down to Section 2):

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jbb/2011/969618/

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DragoN
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Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:54 pm      Reply with quote
Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2008 Jan;28(1):61-4.
Effects of "surrounding needling" on hydroxyproline content and ultrastructures in the dermis of aged rats.
[Article in Chinese]
Lu Y.
Source

Affiliated Hospital of Liaoning University of TCM, Shenyang 110032, China. tcm-luyuan@hotmail.com
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

To probe the mechanism of acupuncture in anti-skin aging.

METHODS:

A blank control group, an operation control group, an 8-month young group and an 18-month aged group were set up. Soluble and total hydroxyproline contents of the abdominal skin were compared, and appearance of fibroblast and arrangement of collagenous fibers were observed with transmission electron microscope, effects of surrounding needling on contents of collagenous fibers and ultrastructures of the dermis of the aged rats were observed, and the results were compared with results reported.

RESULTS:

After surrounding needling, soluble hydroxyproline content of the skin significantly increased and the total hydroxyproline content did not change in the rats as compared with the aged control group; and cellular organs in dermis fibroblast decreased and cellular structures retrograded, and the space between collagenous fibers widened, and aging frame-bridge increased in the aged rats, but after surrounding needling fibroblast activity strengthened.

CONCLUSION:

Surrounding needling can change aging state of skin possibly by strengthening the activity of fibroblast in skin and increasing the content of soluble collagen.

Apparently effective on middle aged to old rats. Minus the concomitant DNA damage/ mutations etc of light therapy. Pretty certain the little ones didn't get any nice serums though.

Good point Lacy53
Quote:
2) Did the mice have scars? (The study suggests dermarolling is effective for acne scars).

They may not have, I did however have scars but not acne, deep cuts that had become infected. N=1. Fortunately there is quite a bit of research on humans that does support same. The mouse model isn't perfect.

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Barefootgirl
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:07 am      Reply with quote
I think the key item of interest in this study was the head on comparison with IPL.

There are lots of needling studies showing positive results.

I'll soon be all over the Dermapen - and will post a review. lol

BFG
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:12 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I think the key item of interest in this study was the head on comparison with IPL.

There are lots of needling studies showing positive results.

I'll soon be all over the Dermapen - and will post a review. lol

BFG


Did you manage to purchase one BFG? I can't wait to hear your review!

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Lacy53
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:36 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I think the key item of interest in this study was the head on comparison with IPL.

BFG


IPL comparison was interesting. Apparently they used the Ellipse Flex from Danish Dermatologic Development; a single IPL pass using a fluence of 10.5 J/cm2 after application of cooled ultrasound gel. The wavelength of IPL ranged from 555 to 950 nm. Two pulses were used, with a duration of 2.5 ms and a delay of 10 ms.

Here are the specs for the Ellipse Flex. According to the FDA filing, the device is an Intense Pulsed Light (IPL) system used for long-term removal of unwanted hair; for treatment of sun-damaged skin, including uneven pigmentation, age spots, large pores, diffuse redness, and for the treatment of telangiectasias, port wine stains and inflammatory acne. They summarize the intended uses as:

- Hair removal (Permanent hair reduction)

- Treatment of benign pigmented lesions (including, but not limited to solar lentigines, ephilides, mottled pigmentation) and benign vascular lesions (including but not limited to diffuse redness, telangiectasias, port wine stains).

- Treatment of inflammatory acne.


http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf5/K052688.pdf

Makes me wonder if comparing Dermarolling to IPL is a valid comparison, since Dermarolling isn't used for hair removal, depigmentation or inflammatory acne.

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Barefootgirl
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:31 pm      Reply with quote
Doesn't appear that they were measuring for the other applications.

This was their only measurement:

"OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of IPL and MTS on collagen deposition."


BFG
Barefootgirl
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:37 pm      Reply with quote
Here's another test showing a comparison between MN and IPL for collagen deposition and skin thickness, again microneedling comes out ahead.

http://www.preswede.se/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/IPLvsMicroneedling.pdf

Perhaps they chose IPL as a comparison because it is often touted as an "anti-aging" process.

BFG
DrJ
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:05 pm      Reply with quote
DragoN wrote:


Apparently effective on middle aged to old rats. Minus the concomitant DNA damage/ mutations etc of light therapy. Pretty certain the little ones didn't get any nice serums though.


Poor rats. If we had known we would have sent them some AnteAGE.
DrJ
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:12 pm      Reply with quote
Let's do a clinical science quiz. TRUE FALSE

Dermarolling (or PCI) ... compared to lasers (AND AS FAR AS KNOWN IPL)

TRUE FALSE
does more damage to the epidermis

TRUE FALSE
like other semi-invasive procedures, causes cells to release cytokines associated with scarring or fibrosis (more TGF beta 1 than beta 3).

TRUE FALSE
can help with skin laxity

TRUE FALSE
carries more risk of hyperpigmentation
Lacy53
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:15 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:

Perhaps they chose IPL as a comparison because it is often touted as an "anti-aging" process.

BFG

BUT is IPL really "often touted as an anti-aging" treatment though? I know fractionated laser treatments are; not sure about IPL (aka photo facial light treatments). IPL is evaluated and approved for other issues (see my earlier post); not sure about collagen deposition. I don't see it recommended for acne scars either. So maybe comparing IPL to dermarolling is like comparing apples and oranges. Perhaps comparing dermarolling to fractionated laser treatments would be more appropriate. I personally don't know the answers.

My other point was why measure changes 4 weeks after treatment? Doesn't it take much longer than that to see increased collagen formation (in humans at least)?

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DrJ
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:52 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:

Perhaps they chose IPL as a comparison because it is often touted as an "anti-aging" process.

BFG

BUT is IPL really "often touted as an anti-aging" treatment though? I know fractionated laser treatments are; not sure about IPL (aka photo facial light treatments). IPL is evaluated and approved for other issues (see my earlier post); not sure about collagen deposition. I don't see it recommended for acne scars either. So maybe comparing IPL to dermarolling is like comparing apples and oranges. Perhaps comparing dermarolling to fractionated laser treatments would be more appropriate. I personally don't know the answers.

My other point was why measure changes 4 weeks after treatment? Doesn't it take much longer than that to see increased collagen formation (in humans at least)?


Yes, lacy53. You are quite right. IPL gets overhyped sometimes, but it really is not in the same category.

And yes, collagen induction should be measured over 8-12 weeks. It does take time to see the results.

I suppose it makes the quiz even more tantalizing if we stick to just comparing dermarolling to fractionated laser. Then its apples-apples because both cause multiple small holes in the skin with clear spaces between. Laser makes smaller holes. Any takers?
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:21 pm      Reply with quote
I did not have the microneedle therapy but I've had 3 sessions of IPL so far. I decided to try IPL for my age spots, and so far it seems to help a little. My left cheek spots are way ligter, almost unnoticeable, but the one spot on my right cheek is still there, not sure why it won't go away or scab.

Anyway I did notice that my skin appears firmer now, which I think is a side effect of the IPL. The technician did tell me about the collagen production and pore tightening, but I was not too concerned about that info since it was not my focus. However I must say it is a nice surprise. I do like how my skin looks right now.
Barefootgirl
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Tue May 01, 2012 5:45 am      Reply with quote
Yes, maybe someone here will have time to dig up a study that compares dermarolling directly with fractionated lasers...nevertheless, a cursory review via Google shows the preponderance of articles and ads for IPL touting collagen synthesis among other anti-aging effects, although we here think of it as a treatment for age spots. As I always say: (caveat emptor)


From my own notes, our poster bethany got this reply from Horst Liebl:

"The skin reacts to Dermarolling by cell regeneration.Skin reacts to thermal or any other ablative procedures with the body’s repair mechanism – fibrosis.
(For further information, please refer to the article of Christopher S. J. Dunkin et al.: Scarring Occurs at a Critical Depth of Skin Injury…, published 2007 by the American Society of Plastic Surgeons).'
BFG
Barefootgirl
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Tue May 01, 2012 5:52 am      Reply with quote
I found the full text of Liebl's discussion with Bethany on collagen induction:

http://www.dermaroller.vn/en/faq/55-faqs/95-cau-hoi-ve-su-hinh-thanh-collagen.html

Sure would be great to get second, third and fourth opinions on his response as well as the topic in general.

BFG
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Tue May 01, 2012 6:43 am      Reply with quote
Thank you for posting the link Barefootgirl! If I understand it well, short needled dermarollers like the 0.5 mm I have lying around should be able to help produce collagen, because they would stimulate the production of growth factors and other cytokines involved in wound repair?
And wouldn't this mean that the rolling with shorter needles up to 0.2 mm as done for product penetration also leads to more collagen, no matter which product is being used? Without any risk of scarring?
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Tue May 01, 2012 12:42 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
According to this study, performed on mouse skin,
Microneedling is superior to IPL lasers with respect to collagen growth and scar treatment:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.01882.x/abstract

BFG

PS - far cheaper too!


I agree, microneedling is far cheaper than IPL, but it is not for everybody. I have never seen anyone recommending microneedling for rosacea or as a treatment of broken caps. Perhaps, microneeding is indeed better with respect to production of collagen, but I don't think it is better with respect to other factors.
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Wed May 02, 2012 12:11 pm      Reply with quote
RussianSunshine wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
According to this study, performed on mouse skin,
Microneedling is superior to IPL lasers with respect to collagen growth and scar treatment:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.01882.x/abstract

BFG

PS - far cheaper too!


I agree, microneedling is far cheaper than IPL, but it is not for everybody. I have never seen anyone recommending microneedling for rosacea or as a treatment of broken caps. Perhaps, microneeding is indeed better with respect to production of collagen, but I don't think it is better with respect to other factors.


I have seen needling recommended for broken caps, but not for rosacea. (I don't think needling is recommended for ANY inflammatory condition, in fact, and rosacea is an inflammatory condition.) The theory is that the needling will break up the capillaries and cause them to be resorbed, not unlike the resorption that occurs with V-Beam treatments, etc.
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Wed May 02, 2012 2:31 pm      Reply with quote
EthelM wrote:


I have seen needling recommended for broken caps,


I've seen it somewhere too but IMHO it is total BS. Rolling Eyes I've been using a roller for a long time and saw no effect on my broken caps.
melanie haber
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Wed May 02, 2012 4:31 pm      Reply with quote
I turned my monitor upside down but I'm not finding the answer key to DrJ's quiz.
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Wed May 02, 2012 4:40 pm      Reply with quote
I don't believe that dermarolling disperses the blood in broken caps in the same way that IPL does. However, I believe my broken caps do look much better simply because dermarolling has thickened my skin making them less visible.

I was also under the impression that IPL stimulated collagen growth through the wounding of the dermis - but this is dependent on the intensity of the treatment.

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Wed May 02, 2012 4:44 pm      Reply with quote
melanie haber wrote:
I turned my monitor upside down but I'm not finding the answer key to DrJ's quiz.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

My answers would be: False: True: True: False.

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Wed May 02, 2012 5:01 pm      Reply with quote
melanie haber wrote:
I turned my monitor upside down but I'm not finding the answer key to DrJ's quiz.


LOL. This is too funny! Laughing
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