Microneedle Therapy Versus Intense Pulsed Light Lasers
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free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 3:41 am

DrJ,

We expect Dr. Fernandes to continue to advocate for his Environ line for pre/post rolling (since he will fall back on his own research)...just as you will continue to advocate for your topicals (based on your own research)....so getting his thoughts on this would likely be futile (some of us here have been fortunate to communicate with him)...

but I would be curious to see if you can explain to us why you feel your topicals would be more effective?

Thanks, BFG

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 6:00 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

DrJ,

We expect Dr. Fernandes to continue to advocate for his Environ line for pre/post rolling (since he will fall back on his own research)...just as you will continue to advocate for your topicals (based on your own research)....so getting his thoughts on this would likely be futile (some of us here have been fortunate to communicate with him)...

but I would be curious to see if you can explain to us why you feel your topicals would be more effective?

Thanks, BFG

Agree that Dr. Fernandes will continue to advocate A and C.

BFG, Dr J did explain his reasoning. This is what he said:

DrJ wrote:

OK, let's get back to the wisdom of Dr.F (who as far as we know hasn't yet been educated about stem cytokines). I will refer to his 2008 paper in Clinics in Dermatology; I cannot link to the complete published paper because it is copyright restricted. I cane cite key excerpts (in quotes).

First, he emphases preparing the skin prior to rolling "Photoaged skin needs to be turned into healthier, functionally younger skin before PCI". Hmmm. Sounds like a job for AnteAGE to me (DrF says say to prep for 3 wks. to 3 mos.). Now, Dr.F recommends VitA and C, but lets look at why he does. He states: "...to facilitate rapid healing of the skin". and "to encourage the release of TGFbeta-3". Now while we are believers in VitA and C (they are in the AnteAGE Accelerator) we can state unequivocally that healing in general, and cytokine directed healing in particular (TGFbeta3>>TGFbeta1&2) is an order of magnitude better with AnteAGE. TGFB-3 IS A CYTOKINE. We directly stimulate, control & measure the cytokines as they are manufactured by the cells famous for making healing cytokines.

Post rolling Dr.F recommends using Vit A or VitC "or oils" "...to promote better healing". He adds: "the addition of palmitoyl pentapeptide could possibly ensure even better results". In my mind this means 1. he is looking to decrease acute phase inflammation using oils as emollients, and 2. he seek to promote healing response with peptides (synthetic cytokines). I cannot help thinking that DrF would be very excited to learn about stem cytokines. I need to write him a letter.

So, for these reasons, I think that AnteAGE is the best choice 1. to prep the skin for rolling, and 2. as a post procedure synergistic strategy to assure that healing is promoted in the right direction (non-scarring, youthful type).

My recommendation: AnteAGE serum + Accelerator 8-12 weeks before, AnteAGE serum applied more frequently & liberally in the immediate post roll period, then continue AnteAGE serum + accelerator as before. Of course, I am biased, don't bother to mention. But, I have tried to lay out my logic for you clearly in light of DrF's theories. I think they dovetail very nicely.

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 6:50 am

This all sounds very interesting. Funny because I really was interested in DIY'ing my first Vit C serum and wanted a Tetra C one, as I am really not keen on the one I am using at the moment.
Anyone got a quick, easy (cheap) receipe for a Tetra C serum?
would really appreciate it.
I am five days post my 3rd derma roll with a 1.5mm and definitely see changes in my skin this time. Is Tetra C more expensive than L ascorbic acid?

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 6:59 am

Oh thank you,thank you! I missed that...good explanation. I hope DrJ does write him a letter and will share the details of that dialogue with us. Presumably Environ has researchers who might be updating their own knowledge since 2008.

BFG

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 7:03 am

Bermie2 wrote:

This all sounds very interesting. Funny because I really was interested in DIY'ing my first Vit C serum and wanted a Tetra C one, as I am really not keen on the one I am using at the moment.
Anyone got a quick, easy (cheap) receipe for a Tetra C serum?
would really appreciate it.
I am five days post my 3rd derma roll with a 1.5mm and definitely see changes in my skin this time. Is Tetra C more expensive than L ascorbic acid?

Yes Bermie it is more pricey, My very simple recipe is add 7% recommended to any oil of your choice.
I boost mine to 10% and add a few drops of Vitamin E which is not necessary.

The great thing is it is super stable so once you invest in the Tetra C you will be good to go for quite a while! Very Happy

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 7:07 am

As far as I know, Tetra C, also known as BV-OSC is only available from one manufacturer:

http://www.eksonfarma.com/media/files/content/BVOSC.Dossier.pdf

I would expect the formulating companies to all purchase from the same place and I also believe the price has been rising steadily the past few years...almost seems like a corner on that market.

BFG

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 7:16 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

As far as I know, Tetra C, also known as BV-OSC is only available from one manufacturer:

http://www.eksonfarma.com/media/files/content/BVOSC.Dossier.pdf

I would expect the formulating companies to all purchase from the same place and I also believe the price has been rising steadily the past few years...almost seems like a corner on that market.

BFG

What I am referring to is Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate which most suppliers sell and have for a good while:

Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate
CAS No. 183476-82-6

Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate is a very stable, oil-soluble Vitamin C ester which has anti-oxidant activity, inhibiting lipid peroxidation. Topical use can mitigate the damaging effects of UV exposure. Studies have shown it to stimulate collagen production as well as clarifying and brightening the skin by inhibiting melanogenesis (the production of pigment) thereby promoting a more even skin tone. Unlike ascorbic acid, it will not exfoliate or irritate skin.

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/tetrahexyldecyl-ascorbate-BV-OSC.html

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 7:23 am

One and the same - the link you posted has the BV-OSC nomenclature in it.

BFG

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 7:26 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

As far as I know, Tetra C, also known as BV-OSC is only available from one manufacturer:

http://www.eksonfarma.com/media/files/content/BVOSC.Dossier.pdf

I would expect the formulating companies to all purchase from the same place and I also believe the price has been rising steadily the past few years...almost seems like a corner on that market.

BFG

This is noted on bulkactives site,

We regret that, for the first time in 5 years, the official distributor has hit us with a massive price increase.

http://www.bulkactives.com/categories/vitaminc.htm

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 7:29 am

I also use topical estriol 1% USB cream. Topical estriol has been found to increase collagen. Do any of you use estriol with dermarolling? I want to follow Dr. DF's protocol, but I lve the results I get from estriol. Can I incorporate estriol into the Vitamin A & C regimine?

Also, just to double check, is it advisable to use BOTH retinyl palmitate and tretinoin...not just tretinoin, correct?? Trying to juggle time slots Laughing

for topicals application, since the Vitamin A derivatives can't be applied during daylight hours/sun exposure. Would applying vitamin C during the day, and alternating tretinoin and retinyl palmitate at night be a good plan? Then, somewhere, I'll toss in my estriol cream?

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 7:31 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

Add my voice to the chorus of echoes. My needling data and papers are all over the place. I have to organize them in one folder so I can be more clear on my own advice/instructions.

That said, IIRC, he believes tetra is more effective not due to stability (although it is stable) but more so because it is a better "workhorse" than the other forms of Vitamin C...i.e. better at supporting collagen synthesis, etc.

I am trying to get my hands on that Fernandes paper showing the woman with 5 years of rolling use....oh my god - 5 years later she looked 20 years younger - and she was way middle-aged to begin with. YOu could see the "thickness" in the photo.

BFG

I would LOVE to see those photos! Sounds amazing and it'll be a super motivator for me. Thanks BFG!

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 7:37 am

DarkMoon wrote:

Bermie2 wrote:

This all sounds very interesting. Funny because I really was interested in DIY'ing my first Vit C serum and wanted a Tetra C one, as I am really not keen on the one I am using at the moment.
Anyone got a quick, easy (cheap) receipe for a Tetra C serum?
would really appreciate it.
I am five days post my 3rd derma roll with a 1.5mm and definitely see changes in my skin this time. Is Tetra C more expensive than L ascorbic acid?

Yes Bermie it is more pricey, My very simple recipe is add 7% recommended to any oil of your choice.
I boost mine to 10% and add a few drops of Vitamin E which is not necessary.

The great thing is it is super stable so once you invest in the Tetra C you will be good to go for quite a while! Very Happy

DarkMoon, this is probably a stupid question (I'm dreadful at math) but what is the ratio of oil to Tetra, in terms of amounts, in your recipe. I plan to use Argan oil.

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 7:46 am

EthelM wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

Bermie2 wrote:

This all sounds very interesting. Funny because I really was interested in DIY'ing my first Vit C serum and wanted a Tetra C one, as I am really not keen on the one I am using at the moment.
Anyone got a quick, easy (cheap) receipe for a Tetra C serum?
would really appreciate it.
I am five days post my 3rd derma roll with a 1.5mm and definitely see changes in my skin this time. Is Tetra C more expensive than L ascorbic acid?

Yes Bermie it is more pricey, My very simple recipe is add 7% recommended to any oil of your choice.
I boost mine to 10% and add a few drops of Vitamin E which is not necessary.

The great thing is it is super stable so once you invest in the Tetra C you will be good to go for quite a while! Very Happy

DarkMoon, this is probably a stupid question (I'm dreadful at math) but what is the ratio of oil to Tetra, in terms of amounts, in your recipe. I plan to use Argan oil.

I make a 50ml batch (bottle size!) so 10% is 5ml. of the tetra (I do mix up my oils).

I have an older recipe here on the recipe index this works out to a 7%:

The following will yeild just about 2 ounces of serum.

3+3/4 Tsp Hazelnut Oil
3+3/4 Tsp Jojoba Oil
3+3/4 Tsp Olive Oil
3/4 Tsp Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate
1/8 Tsp Vitamin E Oil

P.S. I hate the math also! Very Happy

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 8:11 am

Thanks so much DM!!
I am going to order some right now!
EthelM..I have just started an Estriol cream about 5 days ago. I got it compounded for me, I also started on DHEA and have been taking a progesterone torte for about 4 months. Do you apply the Estriol cream to your face? I have been told to apply to inner arms and thighs, alternating? How much do you use?

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread!
Back to derma rolling...

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 8:16 am

Bermie2 wrote:

Thanks so much DM!!
I am going to order some right now!
EthelM..I have just started an Estriol cream about 5 days ago. I got it compounded for me, I also started on DHEA and have been taking a progesterone torte for about 4 months. Do you apply the Estriol cream to your face? I have been told to apply to inner arms and thighs, alternating? How much do you use?

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread!
Back to derma rolling...

You are welcome Bermie,

I was lucky and purchased from Lotioncrafters before the price hike but it has lasted ages! Right now it is 50$ for an ounce which is what I have purchased.(for less)

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 8:24 am

Bermie2 wrote:

Thanks so much DM!!
I am going to order some right now!
EthelM..I have just started an Estriol cream about 5 days ago. I got it compounded for me, I also started on DHEA and have been taking a progesterone torte for about 4 months. Do you apply the Estriol cream to your face? I have been told to apply to inner arms and thighs, alternating? How much do you use?

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread!
Back to derma rolling...

Bermie, I've been using estriol cream for about a year now and LOVE the results. I use it for my skin---for wrinkles, collagen improvement, etc., and not as a HRT (I'm not perimenopausal nor menopausal). The results on my skin are more notable than those from tretinoin, without any irritation whatsoever. In fact, estriol is soothing and moisturizing to my skin. I apply 1% USB cream to my face and neck every other night (using it daily will be too much and essentially over-occupy the estrogen receptors). The amount I apply is simply enough to cover those areas, I don't measure a dose...but the amount I use is about the size of two large peas, one for face, one for neck. LOVE estriol cream!!

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 9:13 am

Skin Pharmacol. 1993;6(1):65-71.
Regulation of collagen synthesis in human dermal fibroblasts by the sodium and magnesium salts of ascorbyl-2-phosphate.
Geesin JC, Gordon JS, Berg RA.
Source

Department of Biochemistry, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, Piscataway 08854.
Abstract

Ascorbic acid has been shown to stimulate collagen synthesis in dermal fibroblasts by increasing the rate of transcription of collagen genes. Experiments involving the use of ascorbic acid require daily supplementation due to the instability of the molecule in aqueous solutions. In order to provide a more stable alternative to ascorbic acid, two salts of ascorbyl-2-phosphate, having a greater chemical stability than ascorbic acid, were tested for their ability to stimulate collagen synthesis in monolayer fibroblast cultures. The concentration and time dependence of their activities were compared with ascorbic acid. The magnesium salt of ascorbyl-2-phosphate was found to be equivalent to ascorbic acid in stimulating collagen synthesis in these assays, while the sodium salt required at least a tenfold greater concentration to produce the same effect as ascorbic acid. Solutions of either ascorbic acid or the ascorbyl-2-phosphate analogs (at 10 mM) in phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) were relatively stable as shown by their decay rates and their ability to stimulate collagen synthesis even after nine days in solution prior to testing their effects on cultured cells. Ascorbic acid was unstable at neutral pH compared to solutions of either sodium or magnesium ascorbyl-2-phosphate. These data support the use of magnesium ascorbyl-2-phosphate in experiments where stability of ascorbic acid is a concern, e.g. in long-term cultures or in in vivo studies.

Independent study.
Check the Barnet study, VC PMG = MAP.
Check the DNA table. If you are using a light device...MAP is the better choice. Wink

Photochem Photobiol. 2012 May;88(3):748-52. doi: 10.1111/j.1751-1097.2012.01086.x. Epub 2012 Feb 9.
Efficacy of cosmetic formulations containing dispersion of liposome with magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, alpha-lipoic Acid and kinetin.
Maia Campos PM, de Camargo Júnior FB, de Andrade JP, Gaspar LR.
Source

Departamento de Ciências Farmacêuticas da Faculdade de Ciências Farmacêuticas de Ribeirão Preto, Universidade de São Paulo, São Paulo, Brazil.
Abstract

The present study aimed to evaluate the photoprotective effects of cosmetic formulations containing a dispersion of liposome with magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (MAP), alpha-lipoic acid (ALA) and kinetin, as well as their effects on the hydration and viscoelastic skin properties. The photoprotection was determined in vitro (antioxidant activity) and in vivo on UV-irradiated hairless mouse skin. The hydration effects were performed with the application of the formulations under study on the forearm of human volunteers and skin conditions were analyzed before and after a single application and daily applications during 4 weeks in terms of transepidermal water loss (TEWL), skin moisture and viscoelastic properties. The raw material under study possessed free-radical scavenging activity and the formulation with it protected hairless mouse skin barrier function against UV damage. After 4 weeks of application on human skin, the formulation under study enhanced stratum corneum skin moisture and also showed hydration effects in deeper layers of the skin. Thus, it can be concluded that the cosmetic formulation containing a dispersion of liposome with MAP, ALA and kinetin under study showed photoprotective effects in skin barrier function as well as pronounced hydration effects on human skin, which suggests that this dispersion has potential antiaging effects.

I am biased of course. I want results.

Tue May 08, 2012 11:14 am

Hi all!

I came across this forum yesterday evening as I was reading up on skincare and derma rollers. I have ordered a 1.0mm micro needle roller and once I receive it, it will be my first time using one. I've read SO many methods on using this device from 2-3x/week if used lightly to once a month if using with pressure. I know most of you on here advise waiting 4-6 weeks for the skin to heal, and I have also noted that micro inflammation can occur which I obviously don't want, but has anyone rolled with moderate pressure once a week or every two weeks?

I am planning on using the roller on stretch marks and I had previously visited a doctor to consult with him about fraxel (laser) treatments. This laser is supposed to break up collagen (causing tear to the dermis layer of the skin) so that new collagen forms, etc. just as the derma rollers are supposed to do. However, I want you all to know that the doctor advised only a 3 week gap between sessions, and this was with a laser! So I honestly think one can use a derma roller for sure every 2-3 weeks. 4-6 weeks seems a bit long, I doubt I'd wait longer than 4 weeks. But anyway, my main concerns are as follows since reading an abundant amount of information, I am still confused with the process.

I understand the area needs to be cleaned prior to using the roller, typically with rubbing alcohol. I've also read to lift the roller after each roll so that new holes are punctured into the skin rather than going back on the same holes, and to also prevent scratch marks from forming on the skin. My confusion comes from what is supposed to follow rolling the skin. I know Vitamin A & C are key ingredients, but do I apply both right after, 30 minutes after, next morning? Also, what are good, or reputable brands to purchase these serums? I shop alot on Amazon, as they carry just about anything I'm ever looking for so if someone can please recommend an item I can find on their website.

I have not "prepped" my skin by using any topical vitamins, but I do have tretinoin cream (0.05%) left over from when I was going to use it on my face. I suppose I can start applying it over the next few days until my roller arrives?

Any insight on my questions is greatly appreciated! I know many of you that speak within this forum have been through the process and can offer some great advice.

Thank you! Wink

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 11:31 am

Go to page 3 of this thread...click the yellow linky things...and start READING.

All there in black and white and some have colors and pictures.

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 1:02 pm

Some more before and after pictures on here:

http://www.dermalintegrity.com/

Tue May 08, 2012 2:59 pm

Lotusesther wrote:

Which brings me to the question why estrogen (as estradiol and estrol) hasn't been named as fantastic active yet.

Hi all, this discussion has been moved to the Let's Make a List / Name That Fantastic Active thread found here: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6460347#6460347 Thank you.

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 3:06 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

Tetra, just answered that one a couple days ago here...the benefits of board searches are enormous...just ask DM.

Bad Grin

BFG

Both DM and Lacy need to give lessons on proper search techniques!! Count on either one to dig up a hard to find (for the masses) article or post

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 4:30 pm

JC0403 Hi and welcome!

I highly recommend you consider using CPs (copper peptides) on those stretch marks with your roller. CPs are suppose to suppress scar tissue from forming and will help skin to heal normally. Just what you want with your stretch marks!

Read about them here:

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=37752

I've used CPs post rolling and with spot treating a few scars (with single needles) and have had great results. You do need to get your skin in a healthier state before rolling, and using vitamin A, C &/or CPs prior would do the trick. I prefer CPs over vit C, myself (it has worked better, IMO). Definitely start prepping your skin with the retinoid you have. CPs are not expensive and would be a great addition to that. If you're into DIY, there are recipes for C Serums, too.

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 5:58 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

Some more before and after pictures on here:

http://www.dermalintegrity.com/

Those are inspiring pictures. I wish they said what length needles were used ( or did I miss it somewhere?)

free skin care · Tue May 08, 2012 6:09 pm

ShastaGirl wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

Some more before and after pictures on here:

http://www.dermalintegrity.com/

Those are inspiring pictures. I wish they said what length needles were used ( or did I miss it somewhere?)

They did not say on that page what length was used or I missed it! Very Happy

They do have a specs. page,

http://www.dermalintegrity.com/microneedling/dermalrollers.html

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