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Wed May 02, 2012 5:06 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
melanie haber wrote: |
I turned my monitor upside down but I'm not finding the answer key to DrJ's quiz. |
LOL. This is too funny! |
We needed another joker in this crowd! |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu May 03, 2012 8:31 am |
ANSWER KEY
Dermarolling (or PCI) ... compared to lasers (AND AS FAR AS KNOWN IPL)
does more damage to the epidermis FALSE it may look ugly, but the damage is more limited
like other semi-invasive procedures, causes cells to release cytokines associated with scarring or fibrosis -N more TGF beta 1 than beta-3. FALSE
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20337652
(it's in fact the other way around. The older the subject - the higher propensityt for bad healing / scarring with laser)
can help with skin laxity TRUE
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18349665
carries more risk of hyperpigmentation FALSE again - the opposite is true, and relates to #1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20413357 |
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Thu May 03, 2012 8:36 am |
PCI EXTRA CREDIT:
1. What cytokines does PCI induce to partially explain its mechanism of action?
2. In what conditions (other than anti-aging) has PCI been documented to be successful? |
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Thu May 03, 2012 8:45 am |
melanie haber wrote: |
I turned my monitor upside down but I'm not finding the answer key to DrJ's quiz. |
You have the student version monitor. The answer key is found only on the teacher's edition. It will cost you extra. |
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Thu May 03, 2012 8:59 am |
1. What cytokines does PCI induce to partially explain its mechanism of action?
platelet cytokines?
2. In what conditions (other than anti-aging) has PCI been documented to be successful?
hair growth?
Need a prize today, lol
BFG |
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Thu May 03, 2012 9:01 am |
Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's also used for scar treatment - which I suppose would not be considered an anti-aging treatment.
BFG |
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Thu May 03, 2012 9:34 am |
DrJ wrote: |
PCI EXTRA CREDIT:
1. What cytokines does PCI induce to partially explain its mechanism of action?
2. In what conditions (other than anti-aging) has PCI been documented to be successful? |
1. PDGF, TGF???
2. stretch marks, scars |
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Thu May 03, 2012 11:08 am |
1.EGF,KGF, IGF-1, VEGF-a, PDGF-BB, EPO etc...?
2.Percutaneous collagen induction therapy: An alternative treatment for burn scarsAbstract
Objective
This study aims to evaluate percutaneous collagen induction (PCI) in post-burn scarring.
Background
Patients with scarring after burn frequently request help in improving the aesthetic appearance of their residual cicatricial deformity. Their scars are generally treated by tissue transfer, W- and Z-plasties, flaps, cortisone injections or ablative procedures that injure or destroy the epidermis and its basement membrane and subsequently lead to fibrosis of the papillary dermis. The ideal treatment would be to preserve the epidermis and promote normal collagen and elastin formation in the dermis.
Patients
A total of 16 consecutive patients (average age: 37±15.5 years, average body mass index (BMI): 25.7) in Germany with post-burn scarring.
Intervention
PCI using the Medical Roll-CIT (Vivida, Cape Town, South Africa). This device was designed to multiply-puncture the skin to the level of the dermal scar to institute remodelling. Patients were prepared with topical vitamin A and C cosmetic creams for a minimum of 4 weeks preoperatively to maximise collagen stimulation.
Outcome measures
The outcome was measured rating (visual analogue scale (VAS) and Vancouver Scar Scale (VSS)), histological specimen 12 months after intervention.
Results
On average, patients rated their improvement as a mean of 80% better (±15.5) than before treatment. Histologic examination revealed considerable increase in collagen and elastin deposition 12 months postoperatively. The epidermis demonstrated 45% thickening of stratum spinosum and normal rete ridges as well as the normalisation of the collagen/elastin matrix in the reticular dermis at 1 year postoperatively.
Conclusions
This pilot study shows that PCI appears to be a safe method for treating post-burn scarring without destroying the epidermis. The procedure can be repeated safely and is also applicable in regions where laser treatments and deep peels are of limited use. However, it is necessary to initiate an efficacy trial to prove the data of this pilot study.
Does that count? |
_________________ If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Thu May 03, 2012 2:05 pm |
Off the top of my head speculation:
Given that use of retinoids such as Retin A, Tazarotene, etc. often produces skin irritation, peeling, etc. - do you think it's possible that retinol used with the short needled penetration roller might be as effective? I have never used Retin A with a roller...it seems potent enough since it automatically produces peeling.
Dr. Fernandes often refers to the extreme importance of Vitamin A levels in the skin, but he refers to it generically, only specifying retinyl esters after the deeper rolls.
BFG |
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Thu May 03, 2012 2:11 pm |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
Dr. Fernandes often refers to the extreme importance of Vitamin A levels in the skin, but he refers to it generically, only specifying retinyl esters after the deeper rolls.
BFG |
BFG, from my talks with Dr. Fernandes, he prefers the other forms all the time. He says that the RA is not stored in the liver, like retinyl palmitate is (using this as form, as this is the type we talked about). He said that someone on Retin A needed to use it nightly, whereas someone using the RP could skip a night or use every other night and be ok with the A level. |
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Thu May 03, 2012 2:48 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
Dr. Fernandes often refers to the extreme importance of Vitamin A levels in the skin, but he refers to it generically, only specifying retinyl esters after the deeper rolls.
BFG |
BFG, from my talks with Dr. Fernandes, he prefers the other forms all the time. He says that the RA is not stored in the liver, like retinyl palmitate is (using this as form, as this is the type we talked about). He said that someone on Retin A needed to use it nightly, whereas someone using the RP could skip a night or use every other night and be ok with the A level. |
Not at all sure what hepatic storage of VitA or has to do with anything (its not stored as a palmitate BTW). Even hypervitaminosis A with altered liver enzymes doesn't translate into levels in the skin that are therapeutic. Transport forms are different.
Bonus Q: what famous nutritionist of the early-mid 20th century has been blamed for with 50+ deaths in children due to hypervitaminosis A ? |
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Thu May 03, 2012 2:54 pm |
Riley,
Does he suggest use of the RP on an ongoing basis and not associated with any sort of rolling? In other words, just rubbed on the skin with our fingers?
BFG |
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Thu May 03, 2012 2:56 pm |
DragoN wrote: |
1.EGF,KGF, IGF-1, VEGF-a, PDGF-BB, EPO etc...?
2.Percutaneous collagen induction therapy: An alternative treatment for burn scarsAbstract
Objective
This study aims to evaluate percutaneous collagen induction (PCI) in post-burn scarring.
Background
Patients with scarring after burn frequently request help in improving the aesthetic appearance of their residual cicatricial deformity. Their scars are generally treated by tissue transfer, W- and Z-plasties, flaps, cortisone injections or ablative procedures that injure or destroy the epidermis and its basement membrane and subsequently lead to fibrosis of the papillary dermis. The ideal treatment would be to preserve the epidermis and promote normal collagen and elastin formation in the dermis.
Patients
A total of 16 consecutive patients (average age: 37±15.5 years, average body mass index (BMI): 25.7) in Germany with post-burn scarring.
Intervention
PCI using the Medical Roll-CIT (Vivida, Cape Town, South Africa). This device was designed to multiply-puncture the skin to the level of the dermal scar to institute remodelling. Patients were prepared with topical vitamin A and C cosmetic creams for a minimum of 4 weeks preoperatively to maximise collagen stimulation.
Outcome measures
The outcome was measured rating (visual analogue scale (VAS) and Vancouver Scar Scale (VSS)), histological specimen 12 months after intervention.
Results
On average, patients rated their improvement as a mean of 80% better (±15.5) than before treatment. Histologic examination revealed considerable increase in collagen and elastin deposition 12 months postoperatively. The epidermis demonstrated 45% thickening of stratum spinosum and normal rete ridges as well as the normalisation of the collagen/elastin matrix in the reticular dermis at 1 year postoperatively.
Conclusions
This pilot study shows that PCI appears to be a safe method for treating post-burn scarring without destroying the epidermis. The procedure can be repeated safely and is also applicable in regions where laser treatments and deep peels are of limited use. However, it is necessary to initiate an efficacy trial to prove the data of this pilot study.
Does that count? |
Very good. Here is more:
J Plast Reconstr Aesthet Surg. 2011 Jan;64(1):97-107.
Percutaneous collagen induction-regeneration in place of cicatrisation?
BACKGROUND:
Ablative procedures that are used for the improvement of a degenerative process that leads to a loss of skin elasticity and integrity, injure or destroy the epidermis and its basement membrane and lead to fibrosis of the papillary dermis. It was recently shown in clinical and laboratory trials that percutaneous collagen induction (PCI) by multiple needle application is a method for safely treating wrinkles and scars and smoothening the skin without the risk of dyspigmentation. In our study, we describe the effect of PCI on epidermal thickness and the induction of genes relevant for regenerative processes in the skin in a small animal model.
METHODS:
The purpose of this study in a rat model was to determine the effects of PCI on the skin both qualitatively and quantitatively. The epidermal and dermal changes were observed by histology and immunofluorescence. The changes in gene expression were measured by array analysis for cytokines, such as vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), fibroblast growth factor (FGF)-7, epidermal growth factor (EGF) and extracellular matrix molecules such as collagen type I and type III.
RESULTS:
The present study showed that PCI with topical vitamins resulted in a 140% increase in epidermal thickness; an increase in gene and protein expression of collagen I, glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) and growth factors such as VEGF, EGF and FGF7. The collagen fibre bundles were increased, thickened, and more loosely woven in both the papillary and reticular dermis.
CONCLUSION:
We were able to show that PCI modulates gene expression in skin of those genes that are relevant for extracellular matrix remodelling.
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Percutaneous collagen induction: minimally invasive skin rejuvenation without risk of hyperpigmentation-fact or fiction?
BACKGROUND:
Photoaging is generally treated by ablative procedures that injure the epidermis and basal membrane and lead to fibrosis of the papillary dermis. Damaging the epidermis significantly can cause potential adverse effects such as dyspigmentation. It was recently shown in clinical trials that percutaneous collagen induction therapy is an alternative for safely treating wrinkles and scars and for smoothening the skin without the risk of dyspigmentation.
METHODS:
The purpose of this study was to increase current knowledge regarding whether percutaneous collagen induction therapy presents an effective means for skin rejuvenation without risk of dyspigmentation, as the authors' clinical data suggested. Fifty-six rats were assigned to three groups: group A (n = 24), percutaneous collagen induction therapy plus skin care; group B (n = 24), skin care; and group C (n = controls. The authors evaluated the effect of percutaneous collagen induction therapy on the epidermis, melanocytes, and the pigmentation markers interleukin-10 and melanocyte-stimulating hormone.
RESULTS:
Percutaneous collagen induction therapy left the epidermis intact without any damage to the stratum corneum, any other layers of the epidermis, or the basal membrane. No signs of dermabrasive reduction of epidermal thickness were evident 24 hours after the procedure. The number of melanocytes neither increased nor decreased in any of the groups. DNA microarray experiments demonstrated that interleukin-10 was increased in percutaneous collagen induction therapy-treated skin after 2 weeks. Concerning the MC1R (melanocyte-stimulating hormone) gene, gene expression microarray analysis indicated a faint down-regulation both 24 hours and 2 weeks after percutaneous collagen induction therapy.
CONCLUSION:
Percutaneous collagen induction therapy offers a modality with which to rejuvenate and improve skin appearance and quality without risk of dyspigmentation.
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Probably a lot more are affected - these are all they measured. |
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Thu May 03, 2012 2:56 pm |
Sorry about that, was thinking of a different conversation with the liver, so my info was a little skewed!
This is what Dr. Fernandes said: "Retin-A cannot be stored so whatever you put on your skin and is absorbed, if it cannot be absorbed into the cells becomes an irritant and so on the nights when you not using it your levels are dropping. The advantage of using retinyl palmitate daily is that all excess is stored in the cell and when you don’t use it for a night or two, then the levels can be kept up by the stored vitamin A." |
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Thu May 03, 2012 3:00 pm |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
Off the top of my head speculation:
Given that use of retinoids such as Retin A, Tazarotene, etc. often produces skin irritation, peeling, etc. - do you think it's possible that retinol used with the short needled penetration roller might be as effective? I have never used Retin A with a roller...it seems potent enough since it automatically produces peeling.
Dr. Fernandes often refers to the extreme importance of Vitamin A levels in the skin, but he refers to it generically, only specifying retinyl esters after the deeper rolls.
BFG |
Yes. They affect mainly different pathways, and so are complimentary. Both translate to collagen and elastin synthesis.
Speaking of which ... is elastase (the enzyme) a friend or an enemy. Many makers of peptides (including the cosmequacks) tout the elastase inhibiting effect of their stuff. But what about old, grarled, up cross-linked elastin? Shouldn't we want to get rid of that? |
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Thu May 03, 2012 3:01 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
Sorry about that, was thinking of a different conversation with the liver, so my info was a little skewed!
This is what Dr. Fernandes said: "Retin-A cannot be stored so whatever you put on your skin and is absorbed, if it cannot be absorbed into the cells becomes an irritant and so on the nights when you not using it your levels are dropping. The advantage of using retinyl palmitate daily is that all excess is stored in the cell and when you don’t use it for a night or two, then the levels can be kept up by the stored vitamin A." |
That makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying. |
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Thu May 03, 2012 3:08 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
Sorry about that, was thinking of a different conversation with the liver, so my info was a little skewed!
This is what Dr. Fernandes said: "Retin-A cannot be stored so whatever you put on your skin and is absorbed, if it cannot be absorbed into the cells becomes an irritant and so on the nights when you not using it your levels are dropping. The advantage of using retinyl palmitate daily is that all excess is stored in the cell and when you don’t use it for a night or two, then the levels can be kept up by the stored vitamin A." |
Rileygirl, does the Doctor recomment only RA after dermarolling, or does he suggest any alternatives? I'm a bit wary of RA in it's role of a photosesitizer/photocarcinogenic. I wonder if another substance, such as perhaps Skinmedica's TNS (i.e. growth factors) would be as effective? Please share more about this topic, and thank you very much in advance! |
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Thu May 03, 2012 3:11 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
DrJ wrote: |
PCI EXTRA CREDIT:
1. What cytokines does PCI induce to partially explain its mechanism of action?
2. In what conditions (other than anti-aging) has PCI been documented to be successful? |
1. PDGF, TGF???
2. stretch marks, scars |
PDGF, TGF --- YES YES
PDGF for sure. It starts a wound healing cascade. But can you get too much PDGF? Would it be wise to supplement it?
Which TGF? (alpha, beta-1, beta-2, beta-3) and why is that important?
stretch marks, scars -- YES YES
You are a smartie! |
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Thu May 03, 2012 3:21 pm |
EthelM wrote: |
Rileygirl, does the Doctor recomment only RA after dermarolling, or does he suggest any alternatives? I'm a bit wary of RA in it's role of a photosesitizer/photocarcinogenic. I wonder if another substance, such as perhaps Skinmedica's TNS (i.e. growth factors) would be as effective? Please share more about this topic, and thank you very much in advance! |
Hi Ethel, he does not recommend RA directly after rolling nor the LAA directly after rolling. He likes the retinyl palmitate, and, I think, he likes the tetra C or MAP, but I am not positive which form of C he prefers. |
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Thu May 03, 2012 3:25 pm |
DrJ wrote: |
PDGF, TGF --- YES YES
PDGF for sure. It starts a wound healing cascade. But can you get too much PDGF? Would it be wise to supplement it?
Which TGF? (alpha, beta-1, beta-2, beta-3) and why is that important?
stretch marks, scars -- YES YES
You are a smartie! |
Hmm, Beta-1? I think that is related to wound healing? LOL. Total guess, to be honest with you! |
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Thu May 03, 2012 3:51 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
DrJ wrote: |
PDGF, TGF --- YES YES
PDGF for sure. It starts a wound healing cascade. But can you get too much PDGF? Would it be wise to supplement it?
Which TGF? (alpha, beta-1, beta-2, beta-3) and why is that important?
stretch marks, scars -- YES YES
You are a smartie! |
Hmm, Beta-1? I think that is related to wound healing? LOL. Total guess, to be honest with you! |
There is evidence that applying certain cytokines to skin (e.g. TGF- β1,) are effective in reducing the visible signs of aging. However, it may also induce the wrong phase of healing and lead to scar tissue formation. TGF- β3, on the other hand, suppresses scar tissue formation. Even within the same cytokine family, minor variations of cytokine structure can have markedly different functions.
from:
http://barefacedtruth.com/2012/04/11/enter-the-matrix-part-1-collagen/ |
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Thu May 03, 2012 3:53 pm |
LOL. Oops. Better start reading your blog again! |
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Thu May 03, 2012 4:17 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
LOL. Oops. Better start reading your blog again! |
Would have been an open book test, if you had opened the book! |
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Thu May 03, 2012 4:29 pm |
DrJ wrote: |
rileygirl wrote: |
LOL. Oops. Better start reading your blog again! |
Would have been an open book test, if you had opened the book! |
Dang, and I loved those open book tests in school! |
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Thu May 03, 2012 4:38 pm |
As far as Vitamin C, in his 2008 white paper, he came out in favor of THDA, which I think stands for tetrahexydecyl ascorbate.
Ethel, you also asked about rolling serums. You will find lots of suggestions in the articles and via a forum search and on the rolling thread.
BFG |
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