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Thu May 03, 2012 4:42 pm  |
DrJ,
One of our formerly active posters was an MD who added an extracellular matrix powder to her post-rolling serum...I think the brand is typically used for wound healing.
Can you speculate as to how she thought that would enhance the process - presumably the goal is not to speed healing as in a typical wound, but rather to boost the synthesis of collagen.
I need to dig them out, but Dr. DF has some before and after photos that are nothing short of amazing.
Man, I sound like a groupie, lol.
BFG |
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Thu May 03, 2012 5:30 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
DrJ,
One of our formerly active posters was an MD who added an extracellular matrix powder to her post-rolling serum...I think the brand is typically used for wound healing.
Can you speculate as to how she thought that would enhance the process - presumably the goal is not to speed healing as in a typical wound, but rather to boost the synthesis of collagen.
I need to dig them out, but Dr. DF has some before and after photos that are nothing short of amazing.
Man, I sound like a groupie, lol.
BFG |
Well, collagen fragments (same as HA & other matrix proteins) can act like peptides (& cytokines) in increasing (or decreasing) collagen synthesis. So it's nopt whacky - but you would sure want to know that your specific matrix powder had more of the stimulation types than the inhibitory types.
...small soluble matrix protein fragments generated by the action of proteases during re-epithelialization can compete with substrate-anchored matrix proteins for integrin binding and impair cell signaling (7). Thus, productive integrin signaling depends on the context in which the intact matrix protein is presented to cells. However, the way in which migrating wound keratinocytes coordinate the balance between substrate-anchored and small soluble matrix protein fragments by the specific induction of wound integrins requires further investigation....
Enamel matrix proteins were the subject of some research a few years back. It has sort of died out as the cytokine signalling knowledge grew.
http://www.xelma.com/Documents/Downloads/Paris_report.pdf |
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Sat May 05, 2012 8:25 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Riley,
Does he suggest use of the RP on an ongoing basis and not associated with any sort of rolling? In other words, just rubbed on the skin with our fingers?
BFG |
Yes. Not positive but I think he still believes in the shorter needles to get the product penetration over the finger method, though. (Sorry, BFG, I just saw this tonight!) |
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Sat May 05, 2012 9:01 pm |
The effect of retinyl palmitateo in skin composition
and morphometry
See Table 1. ^^
Vitamin A Exerts a Photoprotective Action in Skin by Absorbing Ultraviolet B Radiation
The above is debated left right and center though.
Do Topically Applied Skin Creams Containing Retinyl
Palmitate Affect the Photocarcinogenecity
of Simulated Solar Light?
Nothing is perfect. It's not the latest in biotech offerings, but it is far more useful. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:10 am |
| EthelM wrote: |
| rileygirl wrote: |
Sorry about that, was thinking of a different conversation with the liver, so my info was a little skewed!
This is what Dr. Fernandes said: "Retin-A cannot be stored so whatever you put on your skin and is absorbed, if it cannot be absorbed into the cells becomes an irritant and so on the nights when you not using it your levels are dropping. The advantage of using retinyl palmitate daily is that all excess is stored in the cell and when you don’t use it for a night or two, then the levels can be kept up by the stored vitamin A." |
Thanks BFG, and to edit, I meant to write retinyl palmitate (not RA or tretinoin) in my post. I'll read through the needling thread. I'm not looking for a serum to use with needling, per se, but rather I want to know EXACTLY what Dr. DF uses on skin (and when) to get the maximum CIT effects from needling. I'll try to find that info on the thread. Thanks again. 
Rileygirl, does the Doctor recomment only RA after dermarolling, or does he suggest any alternatives? I'm a bit wary of RA in it's role of a photosesitizer/photocarcinogenic. I wonder if another substance, such as perhaps Skinmedica's TNS (i.e. growth factors) would be as effective? Please share more about this topic, and thank you very much in advance! |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:31 am |
Ethel,
I am beginning to think it looks like a cycle where leading up to a deep roll, one frequently applies RP. other vitamins and antioxidants and might want to use a short needled roller to ensure penetration.
Subsequent to a deep roll, (as in immediately after cleansing) one would apply this same oil based serum and then wait a few days before starting the cycle again. The reason for this is that the skin is quite sensitive for a few days following a deep roll.
One could use Environ's products for this (and pay the associated higher pricing and keep a tight watch on expiry dates) or make a homemade serum using these same ingredients which are commonly available.
You could also mix it up a bit on certain nights using Retin A or other favorite night time topicals.
riley, what say you? is this how you see his protocol as well?
I cannot seem to put my hands on it right now, but there are photos out there of a woman, seemingly in her late 50s or 60s who followed such a regimen for 5 years and the impact was astounding - thick (!), completely clear skin five years later... you could no longer see through to her veins even...the protocol almost seemed to double at the same time as a filler.
So in cases like this, you aren't merely stopping the clock, you are reversing it...
BFG |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:34 am |
DM, is the master Googler, maybe she can find those photos 
If anyone can, she can....they are in an article where Des Fernandes shows the effects of his regimen on various issues - aging, acne, etc.
BFG |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:44 am |
EthelM
http://www.abme.com.br/pdfs/Dermaroller/maxilofacial.pdf
Percutaneous Collagen Induction
Preparing the skin
To achieve youthful skin, one needs the skin to be functionally as young as possible. Most patients coming for rejuvenation have photoaging and this needs to be addressed before attempting any PCI. Photoaging not only is due to the actual ultraviolet damage of dermal tissues but also is the result of a
chronic deficiency of vitamin A. [5] The first step toward skin health is to topically replace photosensitive vitamin A [6] and the other antioxidants vitamins C and E and carotenoids, which are normally lost on exposure to light. Vitamin A is utterly
essential for the normal physiology of skin and yet it is destroyed by exposure to light so that it is prevented from exerting its important influence on skin and preserving collagen. Vitamin A is believed to control between 350 to 1000 genes that control normal function, proliferation, and differentiation of
cells. One cannot exaggerate the value of vitamin A in a rejuvenation program for skin, especially with PCI, because in this case, we are specifically trying to stimulate cells to induce collagen to their maximum. Vitamin A in physiologic doses will stimulate cell growth, the release of growth factors, angiogenesis [7], and the production of healthy new collagen. The DNA effects of vitamin A interact in parallel with the growth factors released by PCI. Adequate nourishment of the skin with vitamin A (not necessarily as retinoic acid but also as retinyl esters, retinal, or retinaldehyde) will ensure that the metabolic processes for collagen production will be maximized and the skin will heal as rapidly as possible [8]. Vitamin C is similarly important for collagen formation but is destroyed by exposure to blue light.
Both of these vitamins need to be replaced every day so that the natural protection and repair of DNA can be maintained. As a result, the skin will take on a more youthful appearance. The addition of palmitoyl pentapeptide or other similar peptides also will ensure that better collagen will be formed. The use of a special device for microneedling of the skin (Environ Cosmetic Roll-Cit, Vivida c.c., Cape Town, South Africa) will ensure that higher doses of the active ingredients get into the skin. These chemicals, however, cannot achieve really youthful skin because the collagen immediately below the epidermis has been destroyed by years of sun exposure and the production of collagen in this area needs to be stimulated by a more targeted technique. Technique of percutaneous collagen induction The skin is routinely prepared by using topical vitamin A and C and antioxidants for at least 3 weeks,
but preferably for 3 months if the skin is very sun damaged. If the stratum corneum is thickened and rough, a series of mild TCA peels (2.5%–5% TCA in a special gel formulation) will get the surface of the
skin prepared for needling and maximize the result. Under topical, local, or general anesthesia, the skin is closely punctured with the special tool that consists of a rolling barrel with needles at regular intervals.
etc. etc.
...
After this serous leak has stopped, the skin is washed thoroughly and then covered with vitamin A, C, and E oil or cream (do not use ascorbic acid). The patient is warned that they will look terribly red and bruised,and they are encouraged to shower within a few hours of the procedure, when they return home. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:44 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
DM, is the master Googler, maybe she can find those photos
If anyone can, she can....they are in an article where Des Fernandes shows the effects of his regimen on various issues - aging, acne, etc.
BFG |
Here is one SO FAR that shows lip line and eye wrinkle improvement. 
http://www.chezblanc.co.nz/Environ%20Files/skin_needling.htm |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:56 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
riley, what say you? is this how you see his protocol as well? |
I know he recommends At Least 6 weeks of daily/nightly use of a retinoid and C before one does a deep dermaroll. That is the minimum length of time - longer is better in this case.
For the after roll protocol, Environ uses the EssentiA oil. ETA: They also use the DermaLac product.
http://www.dermaconcepts.com/clinical
(Some before and after photos on the above link.)
And more B/A photos: http://www.environ.co.za/results |
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:05 am |
| Thank you Rileygirl. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:37 am |
Wow, great info!! Thank you BFG, DragoN, Rileygirl, DarkMoon, so much!
Just one question; if tretinoin is used nightly, or every other night, does Dr. DF feel it is as effective as retinyl palmitate for deep roll/CIT therapy prep? Or, is retinyl palmitate definitely the better choice?
Thanks again all! |
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:55 am |
| EthelM wrote: |
Wow, great info!! Thank you BFG, DragoN, Rileygirl, DarkMoon, so much!
Just one question; if tretinoin is used nightly, or every other night, does Dr. DF feel it is as effective as retinyl palmitate for deep roll/CIT therapy prep? Or, is retinyl palmitate definitely the better choice?
Thanks again all! |
Ethel,
I am just about to order my first .5mm and 1mm roller, but have been reading as much as possible!
Here are two sources, I am sure our veteran rollers will weigh in!
http://www.dermaconcepts.com/documents/0000/0103/Articles_-_Environ_-_Micro_Needling.pdf
http://dermaroller.owndoc.com/dermaroller-instructions.pdf |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:56 am |
| Quote: |
| Dr. DF feel it is as effective as retinyl palmitate for deep roll/CIT therapy prep? Or, is retinyl palmitate definitely the better choice? |
I think it is fair to suggest both, but not at the same time. Retinoic Acid cannot be reconverted into the precursor forms in the skin. That is the problem and where the irritation sets in. Each person is different with Retinol as well. Above you should be able to find the data on Vitamin A , the boring cousins, and the unsung heroes in anti aging. They are cheap, and the RP can be found at your health food store in capsules. Squeeze into your base cream, mix and you're good to go. Same with E. Preparing the skin is very important for PCI, and the preparation along will also show good effects.
Rolling is vicious, but it's effective. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:58 am |
| DragoN wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Dr. DF feel it is as effective as retinyl palmitate for deep roll/CIT therapy prep? Or, is retinyl palmitate definitely the better choice? |
I think it is fair to suggest both, but not at the same time. Retinoic Acid cannot be reconverted into the precursor forms in the skin. That is the problem and where the irritation sets in. Each person is different with Retinol as well. Above you should be able to find the data on Vitamin A , the boring cousins, and the unsung heroes in anti aging. They are cheap, and the RP can be found at your health food store in capsules. Squeeze into your base cream, mix and you're good to go. Same with E. Preparing the skin is very important for PCI, and the preparation along will also show good effects.
Rolling is vicious, but it's effective. |
Totally agree with DragoN on this! |
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Sun May 06, 2012 10:06 am |
That's the easy way.
The total gang buster method, little more complicated and more effective.  Still cheap though. Spoil my whole sorry hide with it.
No pain no gain. And if it wasn't so effective, I wouldn't be bothering with it either. But..it is.
Topical serums with the right actives are helpful along, PCI is helpful alone, but together = Results.
Takes time, but worth it. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun May 06, 2012 11:33 am |
I have a couple tips I can pass along from trial and error:
If you use numbing creams, cling wrap for me was a waste of time. Instead, I used scissors to fashion occlusive wrap from unused, new Ziploc bag material...much more effective.
I purchased one of those airless cosmetic pump bottles and keep my serum in there...in a base of red palm oil, I squeeze the E & A capsule contents, along with an All Carotein capsule (redundant I am certain, but cheap)...along with several drops of THDA...shake it all well, put in the bottle, store in the fridge.
Of course, I only wear this at night, on nights that no one can see me. I dare say I resemble a pumpkin on those nights.
BFG |
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Sun May 06, 2012 11:37 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I have a couple tips I can pass along from trial and error:
If you use numbing creams, cling wrap for me was a waste of time. Instead, I used scissors to fashion occlusive wrap from unused, new Ziploc bag material...much more effective.
I purchased one of those airless cosmetic pump bottles and keep my serum in there...in a base of red palm oil, I squeeze the E & A capsule contents, along with an All Carotein capsule (redundant I am certain, but cheap)...along with several drops of THDA...shake it all well, put in the bottle, store in the fridge.
Of course, I only wear this at night, on nights that no one can see me. I dare say I resemble a pumpkin on those nights.
BFG |
Thanks for the recommendations BFG, I just ordered mine numbing cream included, I got a .5mm and a 1mm so far that is as brave as I am getting! 
PS. I have been picking Riley's brain....So a big thanks to her also!!!! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun May 06, 2012 11:53 am |
| Those B&A's are very impressive.. has anyone tried this Environ range? |
_________________
I'm 49, fair skin, green eyes, blonde hair, dry slightly sensitive skin, I have very few wrinkles, slight pigmentation, main worry is sagging..yuck!! Currently using CP |
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:06 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
Sorry about that, was thinking of a different conversation with the liver, so my info was a little skewed!
This is what Dr. Fernandes said: "Retin-A cannot be stored so whatever you put on your skin and is absorbed, if it cannot be absorbed into the cells becomes an irritant and so on the nights when you not using it your levels are dropping. The advantage of using retinyl palmitate daily is that all excess is stored in the cell and when you don’t use it for a night or two, then the levels can be kept up by the stored vitamin A." |
I wonder if there is an advantage to using Retin A Micro with this in mind. With its microencapsulation, it is a slow release product and can stay in the skin longer (and without irritation). Hmm |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:24 pm |
| EthelM wrote: |
Wow, great info!! Thank you BFG, DragoN, Rileygirl, DarkMoon, so much!
Just one question; if tretinoin is used nightly, or every other night, does Dr. DF feel it is as effective as retinyl palmitate for deep roll/CIT therapy prep? Or, is retinyl palmitate definitely the better choice?
Thanks again all! |
Ethel - this is from the rolling info DragoN posted above, from an article written by Dr F
Adequate nourishment of the skin with vitamin A (not necessarily as retinoic acid but also as retinyl esters, retinal, or retinaldehyde) will ensure that the metabolic processes for collagen production will be maximized and the skin will heal as rapidly as possible [8].
It appears he thinks using any form of vitamin A is what is prudent. |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:27 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I have a couple tips I can pass along from trial and error:
If you use numbing creams, cling wrap for me was a waste of time. Instead, I used scissors to fashion occlusive wrap from unused, new Ziploc bag material...much more effective.
BFG |
Thanks for that tip BFG! |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:02 pm |
Foxe
| Quote: |
| It appears he thinks using any form of vitamin A is what is prudent. |
Based on this in his research:
| Quote: |
Vitamin A is utterly
essential for the normal physiology of skin and yet it is destroyed by exposure to light so that it is prevented from exerting its important influence on skin and preserving collagen. Vitamin A is believed to control between 350 to 1000 genes that control normal function, proliferation, and differentiation of
cells. One cannot exaggerate the value of vitamin A in a rejuvenation program for skin, especially with PCI, |
Which is also backed up by countless other studies on the use of the Retinoic acid precursors.
It is boring, but it is extremely useful. No sexy biotech company name attached to it, so no one promoting it. But the research on it is solid. No ReNEWUFace, or DermAFixall to make it exciting.
I also use CP's or GHK Cu post roll. Along with the rest of the mix. Effective. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 07, 2012 6:18 am |
GHK Cu?
I have found that the best products are the least sexy and this, after years of trying the sexy products...
Best deep hair conditioner: plain coconut oil
Best exfoliant for feet: Apple Cider Vinegar
My budget has room for lab-created miracles, but I have not yet come across any.
BFG |
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Mon May 07, 2012 7:18 am |
Cu GHK, Copper peptide. Endogenous.
My opinion, people using the CP's without a dermaroller or deeper peels aren't going to get much benefit from CP's. Give up in frustration.
Ultrasound gel:
Scooter gum 2% 50%
HA1% 13%
Retinol 1%
Vit E 1%
Lecithin powder 5%
Borage 10%
Coffeeberry 1%
H20 13.5%
Phenoxy 0.5%
CuGHK 3%
Glycerin 2%
Ginger EO
AnteAge knock off is a bit similar, different end texture but without the peptide.Several other actives of course. Next batch..with Matrixyl. Permutations are endless, but the backbone remains the same.
The Ultra sound gel I had was just a gross silicon mess of zero use other than slime factor. That is silky and packed with useful actives for my hide. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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