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DIY Peptide Question
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Barefootgirl
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Tue May 08, 2012 4:13 am      Reply with quote
I have a jar of Garden of Wisdom's base gel:

It's basically water with small amounts of starch and Optiphen.

I have some Matrixyl 3000...

How best to incorporate these two? Just spoon and mix some amount (probably around 5%) into the gel?

Is pH a concern?

This is not intended to replace any of my other potions, just an experiment.

Thanks, BFG
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Tue May 08, 2012 4:30 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I have a jar of Garden of Wisdom's base gel:

It's basically water with small amounts of starch and Optiphen.

I have some Matrixyl 3000...

How best to incorporate these two? Just spoon and mix some amount (probably around 5%) into the gel?

Is pH a concern?

This is not intended to replace any of my other potions, just an experiment.

Thanks, BFG


For a cream I got this from SA:

Each tube (2 mL) is enough for about 4 fl oz of cream or gel at approximately 0.1% concentration. Use in your favorite cream or add to our Canvas Base Cream, European Cream, or our Sea Kelp Ultramarine.

Note: Too much copper (even as Copper Peptide) is not good for your skin, this is why the recommended concentration is 0.1%.

http://www.skinactives.com/Copper-Tetrapeptide-Matrixyl-3000.html

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Barefootgirl
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Tue May 08, 2012 5:09 am      Reply with quote
Thank you, that is helpful.

Refresh my memory on the 3 day rule...aren't we supposed to wait at least 3 days before applying any copper based topical after using a Vitamin C based topical?

BFG
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Tue May 08, 2012 5:14 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Thank you, that is helpful.

Refresh my memory on the 3 day rule...aren't we supposed to wait at least 3 days before applying any copper based topical after using a Vitamin C based topical?

BFG


I know it is a 12 hour separation for skin bio copper peptides, but I have not seen anything about that with Matrixyl 3000!

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DarkMoon
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Tue May 08, 2012 5:44 am      Reply with quote
I just did a quick search for Matrixyl 3000 and LAA and found many commercial brands that incorporate both in the same serum or cream.

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Tue May 08, 2012 5:40 pm      Reply with quote
Hi BFG
I use Matrixyl (a similar peptide) in a serum and this is how:

Appearance: Liquid
Usage: 3-5%
pH: 4-6 <--- higher than L-AA needs, so I use AA-2G instead)
Concentration: 160 ppm
Storage: Refrigerated
http://stores.homestead.com/hstrial-SkinEssential/-strse-140/Pal-dsh-KTTKS%2C-%28Matrixyl%29-2-mls/Detail.bok

Peptides are fairly fragile so I make the base serum first then add the peptides with hand stirring last thing.

Hope this is a little help to you.
Barefootgirl
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Fri May 11, 2012 10:56 am      Reply with quote
I noticed in the link below that Matrixyl is to be kept (long term) at 39.2F (4C)...degrees.

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1

I believe that is higher than the average refrigerator temp, but obviously quite a bit lower than room temps...

I almost need a wine fridge for my topicals LOL

BFG
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Fri May 11, 2012 11:45 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I noticed in the link below that Matrixyl is to be kept (long term) at 39.2F (4C)...degrees.

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1

I believe that is higher than the average refrigerator temp, but obviously quite a bit lower than room temps...

I almost need a wine fridge for my topicals LOL

BFG


Believe it or not:

Refrigeration slows bacterial growth. Bacteria exist everywhere in nature. They are in the soil, air, water, and the foods we eat. When they have nutrients (food), moisture, and favorable temperatures, they grow rapidly, increasing in numbers to the point where some types of bacteria can cause illness. Bacteria grow most rapidly in the range of temperatures between 40 and 140 °F, the "Danger Zone," some doubling in number in as little as 20 minutes. A refrigerator set at 40 °F or below will protect most foods.

Sounds like it is an industry standard.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Refrigeration_&_Food_Safety/index.asp

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Barefootgirl
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Sat May 12, 2012 3:56 am      Reply with quote
yes, thanks...vaguely familiar with the concept :0

Find it curious that lotioncrafter calls for storage at one specific temp.

as in....."mama, what's up with that"?

BFG Smile
daler
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Sun May 13, 2012 2:47 pm      Reply with quote
Matrixyl 3000 has no copper in it... skin actives made some special combination but if you get it from lotiocrafters there is no copper in matrixyl 3000
DarkMoon
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Sun May 13, 2012 6:15 pm      Reply with quote
daler wrote:
Matrixyl 3000 has no copper in it... skin actives made some special combination but if you get it from lotiocrafters there is no copper in matrixyl 3000


Thanks for pointing that out daler, I think I know where the confusion came into the equation, Pal-GHK. Embarassed


Palmitoyl oligopeptide (Pal-GHK) is one of the two active ingredients in Matrixyl 3000. It consists of a short chain of three amino acids (a.k.a. GHK peptide or glycine-histidine-lysine) connected to palmitic acid. Palmitic acid is a fatty acid added to improve the peptide's oil solubility and thus skin penetration. The peptide GHK is a fragment of type I collagen molecule and is believed to serve as a biological indicator of increased degradation of the skin matrix. Indeed, when collagen is degraded, more of its small fragments get created in the body, including GHK. Furthermore, GHK is believed to stimulate the feedback loop triggering the synthesis of new collagen as well as other components of the skin matrix. When the key skin matrix-producing cells (fibroblasts) detect increased levels of GHK, they "assume" that the skin matrix is being lost at a higher rate and begin synthesizing it more vigorously. Thus, Pal-GHK (a version of GHK designed for better skin penetration) is intended to stimulate skin matrix replenishment via topical application, leading, presumably, to wrinkle reduction, skin firming and other benefits.

Another interesting point about the GHK is that it is a part of another well known skin care ingredient, the copper peptide Cu-GHK. Copper peptides are known to improve wound healing, activate skin remodeling, improve the structure of skin matrix, reduce scarring and exert other beneficial effects on the skin. The skin benefits of copper peptides are relatively well researched and established (see our article on copper peptides) In fact, most of the research showing the benefits of copper peptides has been done using Cu-GHK, which consists of the copper atom (in the ionized form) bound to the GHK peptide.

More on link:

http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/palmitoyl-oligopeptide-palmitoyl-tetrapeptide-7-matrixyl-3000.html

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Sun May 13, 2012 6:28 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:

For a cream I got this from SA:

Each tube (2 mL) is enough for about 4 fl oz of cream or gel at approximately 0.1% concentration. Use in your favorite cream or add to our Canvas Base Cream, European Cream, or our Sea Kelp Ultramarine.

Note: Too much copper (even as Copper Peptide) is not good for your skin, this is why the recommended concentration is 0.1%.

http://www.skinactives.com/Copper-Tetrapeptide-Matrixyl-3000.html


I wonder why Hannah from Skin Actives offers the advice of 'too much copper is not good for your skin'. What is her area of expertise in copper peptides to make that statement? I have not found that to be true at all.

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DarkMoon
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Sun May 13, 2012 6:38 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:

For a cream I got this from SA:

Each tube (2 mL) is enough for about 4 fl oz of cream or gel at approximately 0.1% concentration. Use in your favorite cream or add to our Canvas Base Cream, European Cream, or our Sea Kelp Ultramarine.

Note: Too much copper (even as Copper Peptide) is not good for your skin, this is why the recommended concentration is 0.1%.

http://www.skinactives.com/Copper-Tetrapeptide-Matrixyl-3000.html


I wonder why Hannah from Skin Actives offers the advice of 'too much copper is not good for your skin'. What is her area of expertise in copper peptides to make that statement? I have not found that to be true at all.


I have no idea foxe, and I would not tread on that question on her forum!

We have seen reports of how she deals with people who question her advice! Shock

Believe me I did not post what she said to bring that to attention at all, I only copied and pasted her entire instructions!

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daler
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Sun May 13, 2012 6:50 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:

For a cream I got this from SA:

Each tube (2 mL) is enough for about 4 fl oz of cream or gel at approximately 0.1% concentration. Use in your favorite cream or add to our Canvas Base Cream, European Cream, or our Sea Kelp Ultramarine.

Note: Too much copper (even as Copper Peptide) is not good for your skin, this is why the recommended concentration is 0.1%.

http://www.skinactives.com/Copper-Tetrapeptide-Matrixyl-3000.html


I wonder why Hannah from Skin Actives offers the advice of 'too much copper is not good for your skin'. What is her area of expertise in copper peptides to make that statement? I have not found that to be true at all.


Even Dr. Pikart advises not to use to much copper , too much of it breaks up too much collagen to be promptly replaced... as far as I know Cu break ups collagen so new collagen can be formed and that is it's mode of action....
foxe
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Sun May 13, 2012 7:04 pm      Reply with quote
daler wrote:
foxe wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:

For a cream I got this from SA:

Each tube (2 mL) is enough for about 4 fl oz of cream or gel at approximately 0.1% concentration. Use in your favorite cream or add to our Canvas Base Cream, European Cream, or our Sea Kelp Ultramarine.

Note: Too much copper (even as Copper Peptide) is not good for your skin, this is why the recommended concentration is 0.1%.

http://www.skinactives.com/Copper-Tetrapeptide-Matrixyl-3000.html


I wonder why Hannah from Skin Actives offers the advice of 'too much copper is not good for your skin'. What is her area of expertise in copper peptides to make that statement? I have not found that to be true at all.


Even Dr. Pikart advises not to use to much copper , too much of it breaks up too much collagen to be promptly replaced... as far as I know Cu break ups collagen so new collagen can be formed and that is it's mode of action....


dahler - can you provide that quote?

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daler
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Sun May 13, 2012 7:07 pm      Reply with quote
Hi foxe, sorry I dont have any quotes, it's been years I have visited Dr Pikart's forum.. Cu remove old collagen to be replaced with new one, at least that's what my understanding is.. I don't use Cu though.. I tired it for months few years ago and saw no visible benefit...

on the forum there were some people complaining about their faces sagging after Cu use so they were advised not to use too much Cu and even to take a break from it...
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Sun May 13, 2012 7:43 pm      Reply with quote
daler wrote:
Hi foxe, sorry I dont have any quotes, it's been years I have visited Dr Pikart's forum.. Cu remove old collagen to be replaced with new one, at least that's what my understanding is.. I don't use Cu though.. I tired it for months few years ago and saw no visible benefit...

on the forum there were some people complaining about their faces sagging after Cu use so they were advised not to use too much Cu and even to take a break from it...


It's true that SB and Dr P will advise people experiencing adverse effects to back off of CPs for a while, but that is usually due to the skin not being use to the CPs and most of these instances are for new users. Sagging is definitely one of those things that can happen when exposed to CPs too fast or with too much applied too soon (the 'uglies). I've had that happen to me when I first began using CPs and I even had to back off of them for a while. The sagging always went away, though.

SB also offers advice to treat skin with CPs twice a day for certain conditions. I myself have spot treated many areas with SC2X as often as 3 or 4X/day with fantastic results (and no adverse effects). I know many forum members at SB have done the same. Hannah offering general advice that 'too much copper is not good for the skin' is incorrect.

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Sun May 13, 2012 8:01 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:

It's true that SB and Dr P will advise people experiencing adverse effects to back off of CPs for a while, but that is usually due to the skin not being use to the CPs and most of these instances are for new users. Sagging is definitely one of those things that can happen when exposed to CPs too fast or with too much applied too soon (the 'uglies). I've had that happen to me when I first began using CPs and I even had to back off of them for a while. The sagging always went away, though.

SB also offers advice to treat skin with CPs twice a day for certain conditions. I myself have spot treated many areas with SC2X as often as 3 or 4X/day with fantastic results (and no adverse effects). I know many forum members at SB have done the same. Hannah offering general advice that 'too much copper is not good for the skin' is incorrect.


I am glad that Cu worked for you, I wish it had for me too....
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Sun May 13, 2012 8:12 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:

For a cream I got this from SA:

Each tube (2 mL) is enough for about 4 fl oz of cream or gel at approximately 0.1% concentration. Use in your favorite cream or add to our Canvas Base Cream, European Cream, or our Sea Kelp Ultramarine.

Note: Too much copper (even as Copper Peptide) is not good for your skin, this is why the recommended concentration is 0.1%.

http://www.skinactives.com/Copper-Tetrapeptide-Matrixyl-3000.html


I wonder why Hannah from Skin Actives offers the advice of 'too much copper is not good for your skin'. What is her area of expertise in copper peptides to make that statement? I have not found that to be true at all.



I am not sure if Hannah wrote this or not, but it is posted on the SA site.

Just providing a link to her? thinking.

http://www.skinactives.com/blog/2011/06/28/understand-the-difference-between-copper-peptide-and-copper-plus-peptides/

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Mon May 14, 2012 8:01 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks for the link DM. I've seen bits and pieces of that link on the Skin Bio forum in the past (first started appearing in 2006) and all I can say is that I would NOT buy a copper 'peptide' product from Skin Actives - ever.

If she gives the advice to use a small amt of her 'copper + peptide', then I would follow that advice - hers is probably not a very safe one at that.

I prefer to buy from the man who discovered GHK-cu/ copper peptides and invented the 2nd generation ones as well. He has published many papers on his findings and I respect his work. I don't believe Hannah has done the same and she has no background on CPs.

Dr P has certainly dissed her comments on his forum in the past. She even puts her comments along with snipets of Dr P's writings on his findings on that article. Rolling Eyes

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Mon May 14, 2012 8:09 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
Thanks for the link DM. I've seen bits and pieces of that link on the Skin Bio forum in the past (first started appearing in 2006) and all I can say is that I would NOT buy a copper 'peptide' product from Skin Actives - ever.

If she gives the advice to use a small amt of her 'copper + peptide', then I would follow that advice - hers is probably not a very safe one at that.

I prefer to buy from the man who discovered GHK-cu/ copper peptides and invented the 2nd generation ones as well. He has published many papers on his findings and I respect his work. I don't believe Hannah has done the same and she has no background on CPs.

Dr P has certainly dissed her comments on his forum in the past. She even puts her comments along with snipets of Dr P's writings on his findings on that article. Rolling Eyes


I am not arguing any of that or defending her thoughts at all, just thought the whole post from her on her forum would be useful! Smile

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Mon May 14, 2012 8:56 pm      Reply with quote
Quote:
Even Dr. Pikart advises not to use to much copper , too much of it breaks up too much collagen to be promptly replaced... as far as I know Cu break ups collagen so new collagen can be formed and that is it's mode of action....

Along those lines. The CP's are not CuGHK , but a mix of a CU carrier and CuCl2. [ I have some here ]It's effective and very affordable.

"Too much" and it's cytotoxic. From the direction of his line of products, it appears he went off the beaten path based on the findings in his original research. Similar findings are available in others research as well.

Earlier I had read his growl about the FDA and had not liked the tone. However, he was correct. The FDA hashed his protocol and made it next to certain it would fail. Typical.

Sensitivities to Cu will play a major role in how a person reacts to his serums. I managed to give myself the "uglies" and then stopped, skin "snapped back" to better than pre uglies.

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Wed May 16, 2012 3:03 am      Reply with quote
So can matrixyl 3000 be used at the same time as, or shortly after vit C?
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Wed May 16, 2012 7:35 am      Reply with quote
gimidalight wrote:
So can matrixyl 3000 be used at the same time as, or shortly after vit C?

yes
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Wed May 16, 2012 2:29 pm      Reply with quote
...one thing I noted on that - the often recommended post-rolling serums are oil based and as I understand it, Matrixyl is water based, so I would think that formulation would be key for using both simultaneously.

BFG
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