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Wed May 16, 2012 3:19 pm  |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
...one thing I noted on that - the often recommended post-rolling serums are oil based and as I understand it, Matrixyl is water based, so I would think that formulation would be key for using both simultaneously.
BFG |
True, you had asked about adding to a cream you have which I assumed was an O/W or W/O emulsion?
No mention of rolling?  |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu May 17, 2012 3:07 pm |
I get lazy sometimes and don't care to make an emulsion, so I use Matrixyl in a water based serum alone, separate from my oil based serums, but yes an emulsion would work better.
(from a simplicity standpoint!)
BFG |
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Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:47 pm |
I've seen it mentioned somewhere around here that Matrixyl should not be used together with Copper Peptides, but the link to the explanation was dead so I am confused as to the reasoning behind this recommendation (apparently from Dr. Pickart).
Does anybody have that info (googling it produced nothing for me) or can recall from memory the mechanism of the incompatibility?
I was going to DIY a Matrixyl + Matrixyl 3000 + GHK-Cu serum in a hyaluronic acid medium but have stalled for now... |
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Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:04 pm |
Summer,
here are the only things I've found so far - all quotes from Dr. Pickart found on other forums:
http://healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8000084653/m/194109713?r=677107813#677107813
| Quote: |
| Matrixyl is often compared to TGF-beta-1 in its actions. But TGF-beta-1 is the inflammatory scar forming protein. Matrixyl helps put protein into the skin but for skin rebuilding the older proteins and cells must also be removed. |
http://www.skincaretalk.com/t/9401/matrixyl-studies/20
| Quote: |
Matrixyl acts like TGF-beta1, the scar forming protein.
So while it may put collagen into your skin, there is the possibility that this may increase a scar like collagen. But the copper peptides may help suppress its scarring actions. |
| Quote: |
The problem is that the manufacturers of Matrixyl say that its actions are like TGF-beta-1.
But TGF-beta-1 is the scar forming protein that is present in the inflammatory stage of skin repair. It will increase skin collagen but you actually need skin remodeling (out with the old collagen, in with the new collagen).
The problem is that the cosmetic companies do not understand the sequence of skin rebuilding. It starts as an emergency inflammatory condition then is switched into the copper dependent, anti-inflammatory remodeling phase. This is what is needed to improve the skin. |
So it seems the only concern is about Matrixyl, not Matrixyl 3000, and it's because it stimulates collagen type 1 - but then again, several other actives do the same, including tretinoin.
I guess it all works out in the end somehow (using CPs and TGF-beta-1 inducing actives together) because I've read testimonials from many women who've been using both Retin A and CPs for years and attribute their fabulous skin to these two products.
Because I don't think we can/should avoid all actives stimulating TGF-beta-1 (collagen type 1) and just make do with only CPs to get great antiaging results... at least I haven't heard of anyone only using/needing CPs and nothing else. (Please speak up if you are that person!)
I tend to become OCD and want to get it just right and perfect, whenever balance is mentioned, and it's driving me crazy that I still don't understand how much of adding protein vs removing it is needed for where I am right now (age-wise) and the goals I have for my skin.
But at least it's clear now that TGF-beta-1 inducing actives such as Matrixyl, tretinoin, etc. are working in opposition to the action of CP which is to suppress TGF-beta-1 production.
I haven't found anything showing that Matrixyl and CPs shouldn't be used together in the same formula or layered, if you are worried about issues like stability/reaction - there doesn't seem to be any problems like that. The only issue it seems, is the mechanism of action in the skin (stimulating vs suppressing collagen type 1), not the chemical incompatibility of these ingredients when used in the same formula or at the same time. |
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Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:29 pm |
And I'm still not clear about whether it is better to use collagen inducing actives one day, and CPs (that remove old collagen and inhibit production of collagen type 1) the next, or if it's better to use them together (such as in a CP/Matrixyl serum) so that CP will suppress some of TGF-beta-1 protein production... but then it seems CP and Matrixyl will just cancel each other's action out and what's is the point of using the serum at all...?
Ugh, still confused about so many things! |
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Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:35 pm |
Hi Yelena,
Thank you so much for posting those info.
My biggest concern is if these 2 ingredients would cancel out the benefits of each other; based on the info, I would rather take the risk of using these 2 actives together. |
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