Do I need a toner before applying either Retin A or Vit C??
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free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 7:13 am

I am using Olay Sensitive skin Foaming face wash and it does not say that it is Ph balanced. Do I need a toner before using either Retin A or Vit C serum??

Thank you!

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 7:31 am

Which form of vitamin C, L-ascorbic acid? Either an acidic toner or an appropriate wait period to allow your skin to reset itself. TBH you might be better switching to a gentler cleanser rather than adding an additional cleansing step, sulphate surfactants are known irritants not suitable for sensitive skin. Adding an irritant such as Retin-A or an L-AA serum is a risky strategy.

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 1:47 pm

This is the gentlest foaming cleanser I've been able to find. I do have somewhat sensitive skin but it is also combination. Can you recommend a gentler cleanser?

I use Cellex-c Advanced C Serum with LAA, and I've been a Retin A user for almost 5 years.

I got Paula's Choice Skin Balancing Toner but I am not sure if I should use it under Retin A.

Firefox7275 wrote:

Which form of vitamin C, L-ascorbic acid? Either an acidic toner or an appropriate wait period to allow your skin to reset itself. TBH you might be better switching to a gentler cleanser rather than adding an additional cleansing step, sulphate surfactants are known irritants not suitable for sensitive skin. Adding an irritant such as Retin-A or an L-AA serum is a risky strategy.

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 2:02 pm

RussianSunshine wrote:

This is the gentlest foaming cleanser I've been able to find. I do have somewhat sensitive skin but it is also combination. Can you recommend a gentler cleanser?

I use Cellex-c Advanced C Serum with LAA, and I've been a Retin A user for almost 5 years.

I got Paula's Choice Skin Balancing Toner but I am not sure if I should use it under Retin A.

Sulphate surfactants or other known irritants can cause the skin to pump out more oil to protect itself. Even if the formulation contains hydrating agents to disguise the fact that the skin is being stripped, sulphates still damage the barrier function. The 2010 study which shows 1% SLS can thin healthy skin utilised aqueous cream not a foaming product! Shock

CeraVe is sulphate-free and considered gentle so might be worth trying? I am in the UK but use a product based on cocoamidopropyl betaine I found by Googling "sulphate-free shower gel base".

IMO L-AA and Retin-A is not a good combination for someone with sensitivity. L-AA is very particular about its pH and is best absorbed in a highly acidic formulation which is obviously irritating. Other forms of vitamin C such as MAP or AA2G don't have the same pH requirements so will be gentler. L-AA is also very unstable so usually used with vitamin E and ferulic acid which are not in the Cellex C. Does it ever turn get a yellow or brown tinge? What is the pH of the Paula's Choice toner?

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 2:16 pm

Cerave Cleanser is hard to find in Canada, I think I will have to order it from Ebay!

Firefox7275, it is not the first time you mention that MAP or AA2G are gentler, but where to find a product with either of them without DIY?

I buy samples of Cellex-C on Ebay, the liquid stays clear.

L-AA and Retin-A is not a good combination for someone with sensitivity.

I totally agree but somehow it works for me! Besides I use Cellex-C only 3 days per week. And I use Retin A on alternating days.

What is the pH of the Paula's Choice toner?

I have no idea, but it says it restores skin balance whatever that means, and is supposed to be good for sensitive skin.

Firefox7275 wrote:

RussianSunshine wrote:

This is the gentlest foaming cleanser I've been able to find. I do have somewhat sensitive skin but it is also combination. Can you recommend a gentler cleanser?

I use Cellex-c Advanced C Serum with LAA, and I've been a Retin A user for almost 5 years.

I got Paula's Choice Skin Balancing Toner but I am not sure if I should use it under Retin A.

Sulphate surfactants or other known irritants can cause the skin to pump out more oil to protect itself. Even if the formulation contains hydrating agents to disguise the fact that the skin is being stripped, sulphates still damage the barrier function. The 2010 study which shows 1% SLS can thin healthy skin utilised aqueous cream not a foaming product! Shock

CeraVe is sulphate-free and considered gentle so might be worth trying? I am in the UK but use a product based on cocoamidopropyl betaine I found by Googling "sulphate-free shower gel base".

IMO L-AA and Retin-A is not a good combination for someone with sensitivity. L-AA is very particular about its pH and is best absorbed in a highly acidic formulation which is obviously irritating. Other forms of vitamin C such as MAP or AA2G don't have the same pH requirements so will be gentler. L-AA is also very unstable so usually used with vitamin E and ferulic acid which are not in the Cellex C. Does it ever turn get a yellow or brown tinge? What is the pH of the Paula's Choice toner?

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 4:59 pm

I use a MAP serum from DHC, they ship to Canada.
http://www.dhccare.com/DHC/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=352

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 5:04 pm

RussianSunshine wrote:

I am using Olay Sensitive skin Foaming face wash and it does not say that it is Ph balanced. Do I need a toner before using either Retin A or Vit C serum??

Thank you!

Want a second opinion? Here goes:

If your Olay cleanser isn't causing you any problems, then keep using it. There is no need to switch to Cerave just to avoid sulfate surfactants if they don't bother your skin. Why go through the hassle of ordering something off e-Bay when you can just pick up Olay locally ... makes no sense to me. I wouldn't worry about the pH of the Olay cleanser either; I am sure the company is responsible enough to formulate a cleanser properly, including the right pH.

The toner is optional, but not necessary. Maybe you could try the Paula's Choice Skin Balancing Toner under your C and Retin-A and see if it makes any difference to your skin. If you are concerned about the toner's pH, get in touch with Paula's website.

I see no reason to switch from Cellex-C, given that you say it is fine for your skin and you have used it for a while now. MAP or AA2G could be considered if you are overly sensitive to L-AA, but in your case just stick with the Cellex-C since you have no issues with it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 5:30 pm

Lacy53 wrote:

Want a second opinion? Here goes:

If your Olay cleanser isn't causing you any problems, then keep using it. There is no need to switch to Cerave just to avoid sulfate surfactants if they don't bother your skin. Why go through the hassle of ordering something off e-Bay when you can just pick up Olay locally ... makes no sense to me. I wouldn't worry about the pH of the Olay cleanser either; I am sure the company is responsible enough to formulate a cleanser properly, including the right pH.

The toner is optional, but not necessary. Maybe you could try the Paula's Choice Skin Balancing Toner under your C and Retin-A and see if it makes any difference to your skin. If you are concerned about the toner's pH, get in touch with Paula's website.

I see no reason to switch from Cellex-C, given that you say it is fine for your skin and you have used it for a while now. MAP or AA2G could be considered if you are overly sensitive to L-AA, but in your case just stick with the Cellex-C since you have no issues with it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I totally agree. If what you are doing is working for you, and you don't have any irritation, why change? (On a side note, due to the continued recommendations on the board of sulphate free cleansers, I tried a few. Guess what? They irritated the heck out of My eczema. Go figure? I stick with my Eucerin Redness Relief cleanser now.)

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 5:36 pm

RussianSunshine wrote:

Cerave Cleanser is hard to find in Canada, I think I will have to order it from Ebay!

Firefox7275, it is not the first time you mention that MAP or AA2G are gentler, but where to find a product with either of them without DIY?

I buy samples of Cellex-C on Ebay, the liquid stays clear.

L-AA and Retin-A is not a good combination for someone with sensitivity.

I totally agree but somehow it works for me! Besides I use Cellex-C only 3 days per week. And I use Retin A on alternating days.

What is the pH of the Paula's Choice toner?

I have no idea, but it says it restores skin balance whatever that means, and is supposed to be good for sensitive skin.

I am confused as to why you think your skin is sensitive, if you are happy with a sulphate cleanser, Retin-A and L-AA? I think I've got totally the wrong end of the stick!

The Skin Balancing series is for normal, oily, combination not sensitive skin? Unless you know the pH is acidic I can't see the point in using it after a foaming product.

For a MAP serum you might consider Devita
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/devita-skin-brightening-s-p_14018.htm
HTH.

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 5:47 pm

Lacy53 wrote:

RussianSunshine wrote:

I am using Olay Sensitive skin Foaming face wash and it does not say that it is Ph balanced. Do I need a toner before using either Retin A or Vit C serum??

Thank you!

Want a second opinion? Here goes:

If your Olay cleanser isn't causing you any problems, then keep using it. There is no need to switch to Cerave just to avoid sulfate surfactants if they don't bother your skin. Why go through the hassle of ordering something off e-Bay when you can just pick up Olay locally ... makes no sense to me. I wouldn't worry about the pH of the Olay cleanser either; I am sure the company is responsible enough to formulate a cleanser properly, including the right pH.

The toner is optional, but not necessary. Maybe you could try the Paula's Choice Skin Balancing Toner under your C and Retin-A and see if it makes any difference to your skin. If you are concerned about the toner's pH, get in touch with Paula's website.

I see no reason to switch from Cellex-C, given that you say it is fine for your skin and you have used it for a while now. MAP or AA2G could be considered if you are overly sensitive to L-AA, but in your case just stick with the Cellex-C since you have no issues with it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

LOL Lacy, best piece of advice I've seen on the board in a while. You go girl!

free skin care · Wed May 23, 2012 6:15 pm

I am confused as to why you think your skin is sensitive, if you are happy with a sulphate cleanser, Retin-A and L-AA?

Because it used to be quite sensitive in the past, but I changed my diet quite dramatically during the last year and now it seems like my skin can tolerate a lot more than it used to. But I still treat it as sensitive, I don't know if it makes sense to you.

The Skin Balancing series is for normal, oily, combination not sensitive skin?

Paula's website and her sales representative assured me that it is suitable for sensitive skin.

Unless you know the pH is acidic I can't see the point in using it after a foaming product.

It removes the last traces of makeup and it contains niacinamide and other great ingredients.

Thanks a lot for the Vit C Serum suggestions! Greatly appreciated!

Firefox7275 wrote:

I am confused as to why you think your skin is sensitive, if you are happy with a sulphate cleanser, Retin-A and L-AA? I think I've got totally the wrong end of the stick!

The Skin Balancing series is for normal, oily, combination not sensitive skin? Unless you know the pH is acidic I can't see the point in using it after a foaming product.

For a MAP serum you might consider Devita
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/devita-skin-brightening-s-p_14018.htm
HTH.

free skin care · Thu May 24, 2012 10:48 am

Lacy53 wrote:

RussianSunshine wrote:

I am using Olay Sensitive skin Foaming face wash and it does not say that it is Ph balanced. Do I need a toner before using either Retin A or Vit C serum??

Thank you!

Want a second opinion? Here goes:

If your Olay cleanser isn't causing you any problems, then keep using it. There is no need to switch to Cerave just to avoid sulfate surfactants if they don't bother your skin. Why go through the hassle of ordering something off e-Bay when you can just pick up Olay locally ... makes no sense to me. I wouldn't worry about the pH of the Olay cleanser either; I am sure the company is responsible enough to formulate a cleanser properly, including the right pH.

The toner is optional, but not necessary. Maybe you could try the Paula's Choice Skin Balancing Toner under your C and Retin-A and see if it makes any difference to your skin. If you are concerned about the toner's pH, get in touch with Paula's website.

I see no reason to switch from Cellex-C, given that you say it is fine for your skin and you have used it for a while now. MAP or AA2G could be considered if you are overly sensitive to L-AA, but in your case just stick with the Cellex-C since you have no issues with it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Amen to that! I said it a while back, not everyone has issues with Sulfates!!!

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:22 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

CeraVe is sulphate-free and considered gentle so might be worth trying?

Firefox, I've been using the Cerave cleanser for a couple of days and want to report that it does not feel as gentle as the Olay cleanser Sad

I will use it as body cleanser for now.

It is interesting that some sulphate-free cleansers do not feel as gentle as the ones with suphates. For example, some of Paula's Choice cleansers that are designed for sensitive skin and are sulphate-free but for some reason they do not feel as gentle as the Olay cleanser.

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:51 am

RussianSunshine wrote:

Firefox7275 wrote:

CeraVe is sulphate-free and considered gentle so might be worth trying?

Firefox, I've been using the Cerave cleanser for a couple of days and want to report that it does not feel as gentle as the Olay cleanser Sad

I will use it as body cleanser for now.

It is interesting that some sulphate-free cleansers do not feel as gentle as the ones with suphates. For example, some of Paula's Choice cleansers that are designed for sensitive skin and are sulphate-free but for some reason they do not feel as gentle as the Olay cleanser.

Thank you for sharing this RussianSunshine. I've been experimenting with some cleansers recently. I was curious about Paula's Choice cleansers as well so that's good to know. My favorite cleanser is the Olay sensitive foaming face wash also. I'm in Canada too. Smile

But I do find it too drying. But it's very gentle/soothing/calming.

I wanted to tell you, I'm currently experimenting with Cetaphil Oily/Combination foaming face wash. (I don't mean the "gentle" one, I mean the "Oily" one.) It's almost as gentle as the Olay, and definitely less drying! I'm really liking this one. (I've tried several!) I find the Olay one exascerbates fine lines but with this "Oily" Cetaphil, they're barely noticeable and my eye skin is much more plump. I'm really liking it thus far so I thought I'd tell you in case it might be helpful to you! Smile

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:53 am

ACV (apple cider vinegar) Toner

- 2oz ACV
- 6oz Distilled Water
- 8oz spritz bottle

A spritz of this after cleansing, will bring your skin back to a neutral pH. It will also remove any film left from your cleanser.

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:47 pm

RussianSunshine wrote:

Firefox7275 wrote:

CeraVe is sulphate-free and considered gentle so might be worth trying?

Firefox, I've been using the Cerave cleanser for a couple of days and want to report that it does not feel as gentle as the Olay cleanser Sad

I will use it as body cleanser for now.

It is interesting that some sulphate-free cleansers do not feel as gentle as the ones with suphates. For example, some of Paula's Choice cleansers that are designed for sensitive skin and are sulphate-free but for some reason they do not feel as gentle as the Olay cleanser.

Sorry to hear that but glad you have reported it. As I understand it, it is down to a combination of the specific formulation and the fact that we can't feel or see all aspects of skin irritation/ inflammation/ damage. The difference between symptoms and signs and the difference between milder and more severe reactions. Some skins are more prone to tipping over into visible redness, some more prone to tipping over into palpable dehydration ... and that, in turn, is down to a combination of genetics, diet and lifestyle, other environmental factors, skincare routine. Blooming complicated. *grumble grumble*

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:47 pm

[quote="egyptiangoddess]
I wanted to tell you, I'm currently experimenting with Cetaphil Oily/Combination foaming face wash. [/quote]

Does it sting your eyes when you open them while washing your face?

free skin care · Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:32 am

I'm not sure, I don't open my eyes whilst washing my face. Shock

It does contain fragrance though. Is stinging your eyes one of your main concerns for a cleanser? My husband has uber sensitive eyes and hasn't complained yet lol.

Btw, I wanted to ask you if you've ever tried gentle cetaphil? I'm going to experiment with that one as well and I was just wondering if you had any thoughts about it. I've got like 10 cleansers in my bathroom right now lmao.

free skin care · Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:06 am

egyptiangoddess, Olay cleanser contains lower concentration of Sodium Lauryl Sulfate
than Gentle Cetaphil cleanser as this ingredient is far lower in the list of ingredients.

Gentle Cetaphil cleanser stung my eyes and so I figured that it is not as gentle as Olay cleanser which really feels like a baby shampoo!

egyptiangoddess wrote:

I'm not sure, I don't open my eyes whilst washing my face. Shock

It does contain fragrance though. Is stinging your eyes one of your main concerns for a cleanser? My husband has uber sensitive eyes and hasn't complained yet lol.

Btw, I wanted to ask you if you've ever tried gentle cetaphil? I'm going to experiment with that one as well and I was just wondering if you had any thoughts about it. I've got like 10 cleansers in my bathroom right now lmao.

free skin care · Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:55 am

Actually, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the olay cleanser contains sodium lauryl sulphate RS. I think it does contain sodium laureth sulphate though.

Have you ever tried Neutrogena Extra Gentle cleanser RS? I'm eyeing this one as well lol.

free skin care · Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:04 am

RS, just wanted to let you know that I use the Olay sensitive skin cleansing cloths when I travel for work and they are fabulous...no scent, and never irritate my eyes.

Just an FYI in case you need a non-liquid cleanser option.

free skin care · Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:14 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

Actually, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the olay cleanser contains sodium lauryl sulphate RS. I think it does contain sodium laureth sulphate though.

Have you ever tried Neutrogena Extra Gentle cleanser RS? I'm eyeing this one as well lol.

You are right! But both of them are considered irritating, right?

Yeah, Neutrogena Extra Gentle cleanser gets high praise from Paula Begoun but I am gonna stay with Olay for now!

bethany, thanks for letting me know!

free skin care · Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:25 am

RussianSunshine wrote:

You are right! But both of them are considered irritating, right?

Not necessarily for everyone IMO. For example, Paula Begoun says sodium laureth sulphate is fine and uses it in some of her cleansers. And we both find the olay one non-irritating even though it contains it. Smile

So you haven't tried the neutrogena one? I was just curious because I like to get peoples opinions before buying. Yes, it seems to get a good review from Paula B.

free skin care · Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:08 pm

No, I have never tried it. I'll be glad to hear your review!

egyptiangoddess wrote:

RussianSunshine wrote:

You are right! But both of them are considered irritating, right?

Not necessarily for everyone IMO. For example, Paula Begoun says sodium laureth sulphate is fine and uses it in some of her cleansers. And we both find the olay one non-irritating even though it contains it. Smile

So you haven't tried the neutrogena one? I was just curious because I like to get peoples opinions before buying. Yes, it seems to get a good review from Paula B.

free skin care · Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:35 pm

I use Neutrogena Natural Facial Cleanser and Make-Up remover, with no issues:
http://naturals.neutrogena.com/products/makeup-remover
Ingredients:

Quote:

Water ,Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine,Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine,Glycerin, Hydrolyzed Caesalpinia Spinosa Gum, Caesalpinia Spinosa Gum, Coco-Glucoside,Glyceryl Oleate,Glycol Distearate,Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride,Caprylyl Glycol, Acrylates Copolymer, Potassium Sorbate, Benzyl Alcohol, Fragrance

However, I have just started using Mario Badescu's non-foaming Enzyme Cleansing Gel, and I love it, I think it's much gentler than the Neutrogena, yet it removes all my make-up!
http://www.mariobadescu.com/enzyme-cleansing-gel
Ingredients:

Quote:

Deionized Water (Aqua),Glycerin,Papaya (Carica Papaya Fruit) Extract,Grapefruit (Citrus Grandis Fruit) Extract,Monomide,Triethanolamine,Methylparaben

I am actually curious to know what EDS members find wrong in the MB cleansing gel ingredient list...

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