Review: The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling
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free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 5:28 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

Quote:

The channels remain open for about 15 minutes.

This is good to know, but I personally think they stay open longer (as tested by application of my topicals!)

Quote:

About copper peptides and Vitamin C:

"Copper peptides oxidize L-Ascorbic Acid….there are other forms of Vitamin C. Dermaviduals uses sodium ascorbyl phosphate inserted into liposomes that protect against oxidization from oxygen and copper." http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002364381100226X

I think it's general knowledge here that you can't apply CPs and Vit C too close together as one can cancel the other out (depending on which CP is used). This is the first I've heard of oxidation. I may have to ask Dr P about that one.

Generally, I would never use both together on a roll. But, his comments about 'other forms of Vit C' makes me think that if one uses a different form of C, then the two *could* be used together?? Hmm In any case - it doesn't sound like you 'can't' use CPs after a roll. Just not in conjunction w/ Vit C serums. correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like here.

What exactly do they recommend for a topical on post-rolls?? (Short or long needle)

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 5:33 pm

foxe wrote:

Hmm In any case - it doesn't sound like you 'can't' use CPs after a roll.

I'm sure I read on SkinBiology that Dr. P recommends applying CPs one hour after a roll. But it's just a vague memory. Maybe you could so a search over there.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 5:34 pm

Keliu wrote:

I've also wondered about rolling in oils. I have always applied an oil after roling - but then oils are anti-inflamatory and I wonder if that is counter productive.

Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes.

I've always wondered about the anti-inflammatory effect of topicals that I use, too. Counter-productive being the best thought running through my head. But, then, some of the actives are known for doing things that are very beneficial, so that could be side-stepping the CIT process by doing what they are known for (like the CPs).

I've gone back and forth on this and have done rolls both with no topicals and then with topicals that offer collagen/elastin building properties on their own. So hard to decide....

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 5:51 pm

bethany wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes.

I'm sticking with the Environ products.

If I were using AnteAGE, I think I'd be applying that after rolling. I already use Retin-A and Vitamin C everyday - so don't see the need for the Environ version. Plus, the cynic in me tells me that Dr. Fernandes recommends his products because he wants to sell us something - and recommending his product rather than one which requires a prescription is to be expected.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 5:55 pm

Keliu wrote:

bethany wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes.

I'm sticking with the Environ products.

If I were using AnteAGE, I think I'd be applying that after rolling. I already use Retin-A and Vitamin C everyday - so don't see the need for the Environ version. Plus, the cynic in me tells me that Dr. Fernandes recommends his products because he wants to sell us something - and recommending his product rather than one which requires a prescription is to be expected.

LOL! call me cynical too but that's what I've been thinking about this business of Dr. F. recommending the A & C he sells over the others.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 5:56 pm

foxe wrote:

I've always wondered about the anti-inflammatory effect of topicals that I use, too. Counter-productive being the best thought running through my head. But, then, some of the actives are known for doing things that are very beneficial, so that could be side-stepping the CIT process by doing what they are known for (like the CPs).

These are my thoughts also. For instance, Emu Oil is supposed to stimulate collagen growth - so then why not roll it in? What confuses me about the wound healing cascade is - is it counter-productive to speed it up? If we cut our skin, we know it will heal eventually - but often we apply something to speed up the process - I can't see why this can't apply to dermarolling.

So many unanswered questions. hmm

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 5:57 pm

If you look at the ingredients posted for the AVST, they have to be in oil of some sort as they are oil soluble.
eg:
Tetra C

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 6:06 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

If you look at the ingredients posted for the AVST, they have to be in oil of some sort as they are oil soluble.
eg:
Tetra C

Plus - our skin already contains its own oils.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 6:17 pm

Keliu wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

If you look at the ingredients posted for the AVST, they have to be in oil of some sort as they are oil soluble.
eg:
Tetra C

Plus - our skin already contains its own oils.

Exactly!

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 6:19 pm

Keliu, Dr. F's philosophy is to use A and C two times a day. I, for instance, do not see myself applying Retin A and LAA two times a day every day - I will be left without skin and look like Ms. Tomato. I want a product that contains Vit C and Vit A in high enough concentration to be effective and at the same time gentle enough for my sensitive skin.

I also like the idea of increased concentration of actives. I am fine tolerating AVST 2 which means I can move to the next level. But if a line contains only one product, that means if I can't tolerate it, I won't be able to use the line at all, or use a special line for sensitive skin, which, as a rule, has almost no precious actives like Vit A or Vit C.

Keliu wrote:

bethany wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes.

I'm sticking with the Environ products.

If I were using AnteAGE, I think I'd be applying that after rolling. I already use Retin-A and Vitamin C everyday - so don't see the need for the Environ version. Plus, the cynic in me tells me that Dr. Fernandes recommends his products because he wants to sell us something - and recommending his product rather than one which requires a prescription is to be expected.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 6:28 pm

Keliu wrote:

bethany wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes.

I'm sticking with the Environ products.

If I were using AnteAGE, I think I'd be applying that after rolling. I already use Retin-A and Vitamin C everyday - so don't see the need for the Environ version. Plus, the cynic in me tells me that Dr. Fernandes recommends his products because he wants to sell us something - and recommending his product rather than one which requires a prescription is to be expected.

The only reason I am using Environ is that I can't handle Retin A more than once a week. Sad

. So this lets me work up the ladder of actives strength since he offers various levels and maybe one day I can use RA often enough for it to be truly beneficial, sigh. I also picked it because it has the C built in, the product levels are reverified annually to ensure you are getting what you pay for, and he has done many years of research on both A and dermarolling. But other lines offer many advantages too.. This just happens to be the one I chose.

As far rolling in AnteAGE, maybe for a short needle roll, but not for a long needle roll due to it being anti-inflammatory. I might add it in at day 5 though.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 6:34 pm

I'm lucky in that my skin tolerates Retin-A without any problems at all. That's why I can't see the point, for me, of using a less potent product.

As for AnteAGE - I would want the actives in that serum (especially the cytokines) to penetrate to their best advantage. The anti-inflammatory question still confuses me though.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 6:39 pm

Keliu wrote:

I'm lucky in that my skin tolerates Retin-A without any problems at all. That's why I can't see the point, for me, of using a less potent product.

As for AnteAGE - I would want the actives in that serum (especially the cytokines) to penetrate to their best advantage. The anti-inflammatory question still confuses me though.

I completely agree...if I could be using RA regularly, that would be my first choice.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 6:49 pm

Just to clarify though - I would never advise applying Retin-A to freshly rolled skin. It is classified as a drug, and we should be mindful of that.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 7:11 pm

Keliu wrote:

Just to clarify though - I would never advise applying Retin-A to freshly rolled skin. It is classified as a drug, and we should be mindful of that.

OK so if we are supposed to do daily cosmetic rolling when would we use the Retin A? Are you saying that there is a wait time? Or that Retin A should not be used at all on the same night you do a roll?

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 7:13 pm

RussianSunshine wrote:

Keliu, Dr. F's philosophy is to use A and C two times a day. I, for instance, do not see myself applying Retin A and LAA two times a day every day - I will be left without skin and look like Ms. Tomato. I want a product that contains Vit C and Vit A in high enough concentration to be effective and at the same time gentle enough for my sensitive skin.

I also like the idea of increased concentration of actives. I am fine tolerating AVST 2 which means I can move to the next level. But if a line contains only one product, that means if I can't tolerate it, I won't be able to use the line at all, or use a special line for sensitive skin, which, as a rule, has almost no precious actives like Vit A or Vit C.

I had to laugh at the Ms. Tomato comment...that is exactly how most actives make me look since I am fair skinned. Sad

I actually wish that I had started at the C-Quence 1 instead of the 2, sigh. Embarassed

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 7:28 pm

jom wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Just to clarify though - I would never advise applying Retin-A to freshly rolled skin. It is classified as a drug, and we should be mindful of that.

OK so if we are supposed to do daily cosmetic rolling when would we use the Retin A? Are you saying that there is a wait time? Or that Retin A should not be used at all on the same night you do a roll?

I don't do daily cosmetic rolling - but if I did, I would roll in my actives then wait 30 mins and apply the Retin-A. We've been told that the channels close after 15 mins, so I think waiting 30 would be fine.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 8:35 pm

jom wrote:

Keliu wrote:

bethany wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes.

I'm sticking with the Environ products.

Plus, the cynic in me tells me that Dr. Fernandes recommends his products because he wants to sell us something - and recommending his product rather than one which requires a prescription is to be expected.

LOL! call me cynical too but that's what I've been thinking about this business of Dr. F. recommending the A & C he sells over the others.

Of course he would recommend his own products, just like any other person with a skin care line would recommend their own products! However, I will say this on behalf of Dr. F, he has very graciously shared some of his knowledge with me, and he has never once tried to sell me his products.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 9:24 pm

rileygirl wrote:

jom wrote:

Keliu wrote:

bethany wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes.

I'm sticking with the Environ products.

Plus, the cynic in me tells me that Dr. Fernandes recommends his products because he wants to sell us something - and recommending his product rather than one which requires a prescription is to be expected.

LOL! call me cynical too but that's what I've been thinking about this business of Dr. F. recommending the A & C he sells over the others.

Of course he would recommend his own products, just like any other person with a skin care line would recommend their own products! However, I will say this on behalf of Dr. F, he has very graciously shared some of his knowledge with me, and he has never once tried to sell me his products.

I'm not sure why there is such an issue with someone believing in or selling their products. Especially if they created the brand. Of course they think it's a good product or they wouldn't have spent so much of their time and money making it. Of course what they say about it may have to be taking with a grain of salt but often it seems like instead of a grain it's more like a boulder.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 10:07 pm

CookieD wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

jom wrote:

Keliu wrote:

bethany wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes.

I'm sticking with the Environ products.

Plus, the cynic in me tells me that Dr. Fernandes recommends his products because he wants to sell us something - and recommending his product rather than one which requires a prescription is to be expected.

LOL! call me cynical too but that's what I've been thinking about this business of Dr. F. recommending the A & C he sells over the others.

Of course he would recommend his own products, just like any other person with a skin care line would recommend their own products! However, I will say this on behalf of Dr. F, he has very graciously shared some of his knowledge with me, and he has never once tried to sell me his products.

I'm not sure why there is such an issue with someone believing in or selling their products. Especially if they created the brand. Of course they think it's a good product or they wouldn't have spent so much of their time and money making it. Of course what they say about it may have to be taking with a grain of salt but often it seems like instead of a grain it's more like a boulder.

There is nothing wrong with someone selling their products or recommending their products over others. Heck, I'm a big proponent of Dr. J. The thing that stood out for me with Dr. F's recommendation is that he is saying that his version of Vitamin A is better than tretonin. If he could sell Retin A would he recommend it over other forms of A? I just think that a pharmaceutical is better and more effective than a non-pharmaceutical. I guess that is my own personal bias. And, I just wonder if Dr. F would recommend Retin A over other forms of A if he could sell it. I believe that Dr. F's products are probably very effective but I'm not sure if they are preferable to the pharmaceuticals as long as someone can tolerate them.

free skin care · Thu May 31, 2012 10:16 pm

I have seen Dr. F state that he prefers other versions over Retin A because compliance (usage) is higher due to less irritation.

I just read a presentation that Havana found where they talked about helping more people avoid skin related issues due to Vit A deficiencies....it seems like he recommends the type of Vit A that will help the most people beacause they are more likely to keep using it. But that doesn't mean it is better than RA, per se.

Editing to add his overview of the types of Vit A...he does mention the irritation aspect of RA here.
http://www.dermaconcepts.com/documents/0000/0074/VARIETIES_OF_VITAMIN_A_USED_IN_COSMETIC_PREPARATIONS_APPLIED_TO_THE_SKIN.pdf

Basically, I think everyone should just use whatever they want (or some of everything in some cases, lol) and be happy that we have choices. Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:55 am

CookieD wrote:

I'm not sure why there is such an issue with someone believing in or selling their products. Especially if they created the brand. Of course they think it's a good product or they wouldn't have spent so much of their time and money making it. Of course what they say about it may have to be taking with a grain of salt but often it seems like instead of a grain it's more like a boulder.

It wasn't my intention to be critical of Dr. F or the Environ products. It was just a comment on doctors recommending their own Vit A serums rather than Retin-A. Dr. Johnson from Osmosis does the same. And I certainly don't see it as a big issue.

But for those here who are regular users of Retin-A and are contemplating rolling I wanted to point out that there was no need to purchase another Vitamin A product. If you have prepped your skin with Retin-A prior to rolling, you have really done the best thing possible.

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:16 am

I don't think I've ever seen one derm or skin "professional" who doesn't push or recommend a particular line of products based on their personal (usually financial) affiliations. Some attempt to remain neutral by writing books or online blogs, but in the end, they usually end up in some kind of partnership to sell the products.

Choose your poison carefully, lol. I try to get most of mine from iHerb, lol but remain open.
BFG

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:06 am

Keliu wrote:

bethany wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes.

I'm sticking with the Environ products.

If I were using AnteAGE, I think I'd be applying that after rolling. I already use Retin-A and Vitamin C everyday - so don't see the need for the Environ version. Plus, the cynic in me tells me that Dr. Fernandes recommends his products because he wants to sell us something - and recommending his product rather than one which requires a prescription is to be expected.

I don't think that's true...he told me to continue with my prescription product (which was not retin-a or tretinoin, by the way)...plus he takes time to give essentially free advice by responding to emails, so I don't think he pushes Environ just to make a sale. After all, Environ products were used in his studies with such remarkable results, so of course he would suggest using what he already knows to be effective. I think it borders on irresponsible to suggest a DIY serum, or another product, when he didn't use it in his studies and thus cannot be sure how well it will work with PCI. Frankly, there is another line of PCI products being aggressively marketed on this forum, and those products don't have direct research studies with rolling to support their efficacy. Perhaps someone here is just trying to make a sale with PCI/CIT topicals, but it surely isn't Dr. Fernandes. Just my sense of it...

Dr. Setterfield's website sells Environ, and so I'm sticking with Environ products for my PCI products. They are already formulated, so I don't have to worry about a serum with contraindicated or damaging ingredients, which means a lot to me. Plus, it works well with PCI, so I'm not wasting time and money on new (heavily PR'ed) products that may not work. Yes, Environ is pricey, but even so, it's far cheaper than a facelift or repeated laser treatments.

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:27 am

jom wrote:

The thing that stood out for me with Dr. F's recommendation is that he is saying that his version of Vitamin A is better than tretonin. If he could sell Retin A would he recommend it over other forms of A? I just think that a pharmaceutical is better and more effective than a non-pharmaceutical. I guess that is my own personal bias. And, I just wonder if Dr. F would recommend Retin A over other forms of A if he could sell it. I believe that Dr. F's products are probably very effective but I'm not sure if they are preferable to the pharmaceuticals as long as someone can tolerate them.

Actually he does say you can use Retin A - IF you can tolerate it, but he prefers other forms of A because RA is photosensitizing. There are some that cannot. I unfortunately can't any longer (too many years abusing my skin, I guess?). I would agree with you that if someone can tolerate Retin A, that is what they should stick with.
I will re-post this here (I posted this for Dr J somewhere but I don't remember where!):

Dr Fernandes says: please remember that retinoic acid (Retin-A) cannot be stored so whatever you put on your skin and is absorbed, if it cannot be absorbed into the cells becomes an irritant and so on the nights when you not using it your levels are dropping. The advantage of using retinyl palmitate daily is that all excess is stored in the cell and when you don’t use it for a night or two, then the levels can be kept up by the stored vitamin A. Retinyl palmitate is also a photo-protective agent and can and should be used both morning and evening. Because retinoic acid is a photosensitiser, it can only be used at night.

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