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Mon May 28, 2012 8:19 am  |
I re-read the entire book last night.
Toward the end, he makes one reference to home use of .5 mm rollers. I could make a wild assumption that maybe this refers to some clients who had already been treated in his office. This is with respect to rolling too often and triggering constant collagenese. His recommended treatment schedule differs from Dr. F.
The only specific info he gives regarding topical growth factors relates to colostrum. I see that Environ sells a product with this. He emphasizes that his list of actives is not intended to be comprehensive. He does refer to the broad category of peptides and specifies which have been proven effective. But again, no reference to a conflict between Vitamin C and copper.
I am beginning to draft some questions for him, letting him also know that his readership is increasing, lol.
If anyone has any questions to add, feel free to let me know.
BFG |
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Mon May 28, 2012 8:59 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
| Toward the end, he makes one reference to home use of .5 mm rollers. I could make a wild assumption that maybe this refers to some clients who had already been treated in his office. This is with respect to rolling too often and triggering constant collagenese. His recommended treatment schedule differs from Dr. F. |
I don't read the dermarolling thread anymore, but there used to be people rolling multiple times a day with .75mm and longer on an ongoing basis.
I'll be very interested to see what he says about this. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 2:14 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I re-read the entire book last night.
Toward the end, he makes one reference to home use of .5 mm rollers. I could make a wild assumption that maybe this refers to some clients who had already been treated in his office. This is with respect to rolling too often and triggering constant collagenese. His recommended treatment schedule differs from Dr. F.
The only specific info he gives regarding topical growth factors relates to colostrum. I see that Environ sells a product with this. He emphasizes that his list of actives is not intended to be comprehensive. He does refer to the broad category of peptides and specifies which have been proven effective. But again, no reference to a conflict between Vitamin C and copper.
I am beginning to draft some questions for him, letting him also know that his readership is increasing, lol.
If anyone has any questions to add, feel free to let me know.
BFG |
BFG, what is Dr. Fernandes' treatment schedule, as compared with Dr. Setterfield's? Interesting about the colostrum, and I know Environ does sell bovine colostrum. I'll have to check it out. Thanks again, BFG!  |
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Mon May 28, 2012 2:30 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
| Toward the end, he makes one reference to home use of .5 mm rollers. I could make a wild assumption that maybe this refers to some clients who had already been treated in his office. This is with respect to rolling too often and triggering constant collagenese. His recommended treatment schedule differs from Dr. F. |
I don't read the dermarolling thread anymore, but there used to be people rolling multiple times a day with .75mm and longer on an ongoing basis.
I'll be very interested to see what he says about this. |
That doesn't sound good to me... |
_________________
42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Mon May 28, 2012 3:42 pm |
Key excerpts:
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Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success. Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors. Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells. Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.
Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes). Stem cell products and platelet rich therapy hold enormous promise.
...
The 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time (wrinkles 26% & UV 16%).
http://www.beautymagonline.com/index.php?start=42 |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 3:45 pm |
| Quote: |
Enlarging the pathways through the skin with cosmetic needling to allow up to 80 percent more nutrients to penetrate has proven to be safe and effective. It is possible to obtain significant improvement of hyperpigmentation, fine lines and wrinkles, scarring, hair restoration and even UV spots over time. Some want results faster, which leads to the next step up in treatment.
http://www.acaciadermacare.com/upload/docs/Cosmetic%20vs%20Medical%20Needling%20Abstract.pdf |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 4:18 pm |
One more since needle length keeps coming up....
| Quote: |
Further studies by Dr Fernandes and Dr Aust in Germany concluded that similar results could be obtained using a 1 mm roller. In 2008, Dr Greco authored an abstract and stated that biopsies revealed new collagen to a depth of 0.6 mm. Even though 2.0 mm needles were used, no new collagen fibers could be found in the sub dermal layer illustrating no benefit to using longer more invasive needles
http://www.acaciadermacare.com/upload/docs/Cosmetic%20vs%20Medical%20Needling%20Abstract.pdf |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 4:51 pm |
| Thank you, Bethany. This is great for those of us who don't have the book. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 5:20 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Thank you, Bethany. This is great for those of us who don't have the book. |
Also adding my thanks... very much looking forward to reading more on the specifics.  |
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43, CPs, glycolic 15%, Safetox, Lyapko roller (love), HF, Love my Barre workouts and all things skincare! |
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Mon May 28, 2012 5:43 pm |
Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes)
Do any of the Environ products incorporate an ingredient from every or nearly every category all in one serum?..or would getting all these require multiple serums and if so, how and when would you roll them in?
That's my question.
Thanks for the articles Bethany. I am happy to look up info the book, but hesitant to quote passages out of concern for copyright issues, maybe I am paranoid, but I've known people who got in trouble for that...so as long as it's publicly available, that seems cool.
BFG |
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Mon May 28, 2012 5:46 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
Key excerpts:
| Quote: |
Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success. Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors. Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells. Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.
Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes). Stem cell products and platelet rich therapy hold enormous promise.
...
The 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time (wrinkles 26% & UV 16%).
http://www.beautymagonline.com/index.php?start=42 |
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This is from the same article above:
| Quote: |
Methods: Measurements for brown spots, pores, wrinkles, evenness and UV spots were used to determine effectiveness of products alone vs. the use of rollers with 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm, 1 mm and 2 mm long needles combined with products.
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day".
What does everyone make of that? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 28, 2012 5:52 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
| I am happy to look up info the book, but hesitant to quote passages out of concern for copyright issues, maybe I am paranoid, but I've known people who got in trouble for that...so as long as it's publicly available, that seems cool. |
I'm sure it's perfectly ok to quote passages out of a book as long as you cite the source. That's the ruling for students in universities so I guess it would be the same on the net.
With regard to CPs - I'm sure I read somewhere (possibly on SkinBio) that you should wait one hour after rolling to apply CPs. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 28, 2012 5:56 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
Key excerpts:
| Quote: |
Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success. Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors. Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells. Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.
Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes). Stem cell products and platelet rich therapy hold enormous promise.
...
The 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time (wrinkles 26% & UV 16%).
http://www.beautymagonline.com/index.php?start=42 |
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This is from the same article above:
| Quote: |
Methods: Measurements for brown spots, pores, wrinkles, evenness and UV spots were used to determine effectiveness of products alone vs. the use of rollers with 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm, 1 mm and 2 mm long needles combined with products.
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day".
What does everyone make of that? |
I am wondering (and could be way off) that he uses several studies, there are 3 pages of acronyms and references in the back of the book?
Example from the posted article:
Conclusions:
All groups showed improvement in combined parameters with averageg ranging from 5-11%. Wrinkles and UV spots showed best improvement (7% -26% and -2% -16% respectively). The 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time (wrinkles 26% & UV 16%).
In this study, patients were treated first with products, and rollers were added subsequently, so the effect is actually 19% plus 26% at best.
The medical needling group is too small to draw definite conclusions, but appears to be the most effective, although cosmetic rolling is not far behind.
Needling is a safe, effective, affordable treatment option that obtains cosmetic results through optimum cellular health.
Dr Setterfield thanks Dermal Integrity for their support and supply of MTS rollers for this study
References:
Title: Micro Needling and Injecting Platelet Rich Plasma to Enhance Collagen Synthesis and Skin Tightening. (July, 2008) Author: Joseph Greco, PhD, PA/C
Percutaneous Collagen Induction Therapy: An Alternative Treatment for Scars, Wrinkles, and Skin Laxity. Matthias Aust, M.D. Des Fernandes, M.D. Hilton Kaplan, M.D. Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery April 2008
Post Operative Care of Paramedical Cosmetic Procedures. Author: Florence Barrett-Hill 2008 |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:07 pm |
Well I'm sure he would draw on various studies. But I guess what we're all looking for answers to is this:
1. How best to prepare/cleanse roller.
2. What needle length to use.
3. How frequently to roll.
4. What to apply directly after rolling. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:10 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
Key excerpts:
| Quote: |
Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success. Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors. Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells. Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.
Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes). Stem cell products and platelet rich therapy hold enormous promise.
...
The 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time (wrinkles 26% & UV 16%).
http://www.beautymagonline.com/index.php?start=42 |
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This is from the same article above:
| Quote: |
Methods: Measurements for brown spots, pores, wrinkles, evenness and UV spots were used to determine effectiveness of products alone vs. the use of rollers with 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm, 1 mm and 2 mm long needles combined with products.
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day".
What does everyone make of that? |
I am wondering (and could be way off) that he uses several studies, there are 3 pages of acronyms and references in the back of the book?
Example from the posted article:
Conclusions:
All groups showed improvement in combined parameters with averageg ranging from 5-11%. Wrinkles and UV spots showed best improvement (7% -26% and -2% -16% respectively). The 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time (wrinkles 26% & UV 16%).
In this study, patients were treated first with products, and rollers were added subsequently, so the effect is actually 19% plus 26% at best.
The medical needling group is too small to draw definite conclusions, but appears to be the most effective, although cosmetic rolling is not far behind.
Needling is a safe, effective, affordable treatment option that obtains cosmetic results through optimum cellular health.
Dr Setterfield thanks Dermal Integrity for their support and supply of MTS rollers for this study
References:
Title: Micro Needling and Injecting Platelet Rich Plasma to Enhance Collagen Synthesis and Skin Tightening. (July, 2008) Author: Joseph Greco, PhD, PA/C
Percutaneous Collagen Induction Therapy: An Alternative Treatment for Scars, Wrinkles, and Skin Laxity. Matthias Aust, M.D. Des Fernandes, M.D. Hilton Kaplan, M.D. Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery April 2008
Post Operative Care of Paramedical Cosmetic Procedures. Author: Florence Barrett-Hill 2008 |
If you look at the chart in the freq. column you will see how many times they roll during the study. Ex. product-daily 0.2- 2/wk. 0.5-1/wk I think on the 1.0 & 2.0 a total 2 times |
_________________
Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:13 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day".
What does everyone make of that? |
The table wasn't the easiest to read at all...it took me a bit to figure out that almost all the numbers were percentages (though they weren't reflected that way).
As far as that statement, I did note that it was odd, and decided to go with the written conclusions of what he felt was the most successful since the table was weird to begin with, lol. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:18 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
Well I'm sure he would draw on various studies. But I guess what we're all looking for answers to is this:
1. How best to prepare/cleanse roller.
2. What needle length to use.
3. How frequently to roll.
4. What to apply directly after rolling. |
I agree and see Cookie's point also, I will have to check more in my book for definitive answers as to his recommendations .
Cookie I see what you are saying but are those various recs. from different sources/studies?
I have to be honest the chart is a bit confusing to me! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:20 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes)
Do any of the Environ products incorporate an ingredient from every or nearly every category all in one serum?..or would getting all these require multiple serums and if so, how and when would you roll them in?
That's my question.
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If you look at the 2008 study that was quoted (link below), they used the Environ Original Cream (Vit A) plus the Environ C Boost.
http://www.karl-ludwig.fi/@Bin/122579/PRS2008_Clinical_PCI.pdf
I am using the Environ Ionzyme line which combines Vit A and C, along with peptides, etc. which is what Dr. F is currently recommending pre-roll. Then I will use the A, C, E oil afterwards as also recommended. The author states that all of those are required for collagen synthesis, but until I read the book and hear otherwise I am assuming that he does not expect ALL of them to be supplemented. I would also assume that some are already present in our bodies? But I guess I'll know more when my book arrives tomorrow. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:33 pm |
Did anyone notice the 2 best result in the wrinkle column at 26% decrease were also the youngest people at 39 and 47 and third best is product at 19% decrease in wrinkles is 49 years old. The least results is CR10 at 7% decrease in wrinkles but they are also the oldest at 55.
If you look at the picture of the 55 yr old she looks like a lot better then a 16% decrease in wrinkles from the CR3 plus 19% from the product.
That would be a total of 35% decrease. I think her results look a lot better then that. |
_________________
Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:42 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
Well I'm sure he would draw on various studies. But I guess what we're all looking for answers to is this:
1. How best to prepare/cleanse roller.
2. What needle length to use.
3. How frequently to roll.
4. What to apply directly after rolling. |
I agree and see Cookie's point also, I will have to check more in my book for definitive answers as to his recommendations .
Cookie I see what you are saying but are those various recs. from different sources/studies?
I have to be honest the chart is a bit confusing to me! |
The wording in the article is hard to follow. So I'm just going with the heading in the chart itself. I don't really know if this is right or not maybe someone else will know. |
_________________
Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:51 pm |
| CookieD wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
Well I'm sure he would draw on various studies. But I guess what we're all looking for answers to is this:
1. How best to prepare/cleanse roller.
2. What needle length to use.
3. How frequently to roll.
4. What to apply directly after rolling. |
I agree and see Cookie's point also, I will have to check more in my book for definitive answers as to his recommendations .
Cookie I see what you are saying but are those various recs. from different sources/studies?
I have to be honest the chart is a bit confusing to me! |
The wording in the article is hard to follow. So I'm just going with the heading in the chart itself. I don't really know if this is right or not maybe someone else will know. |
At least we are all equally a bit confused! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:15 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Quote: |
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day".
What does everyone make of that? |
Yes, I am totally confused by that, too! For what it is worth, I do know that Dr. Fernandes likes the use of the cosmetic roll-CIT daily when your skin can handle it. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:38 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Quote: |
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day)".
What does everyone make of that? |
Yes, I am totally confused by that, too! For what it is worth, I do know that Dr. Fernandes likes the use of the cosmetic roll-CIT daily when your skin can handle it. |
"Methods: Measurements for brown spots, pores, wrinkles, evenness and UV spots were used to determine effectiveness of products alone vs. the use of rollers with 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm, 1 mm and 2 mm long needles combined with products".
That first line in the chart refers to daily topical application of appropriate products without any dermarolling. |
_________________
Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:42 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Quote: |
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day".
What does everyone make of that? |
Yes, I am totally confused by that, too! For what it is worth, I do know that Dr. Fernandes likes the use of the cosmetic roll-CIT daily when your skin can handle it. |
Rileygirl, I still think no dr. is going to tell you to roll everyday with 1 or 2mm. So that leaves the rolling freq. heading of the chart to go by. Even though that is not what the sentence says. Maybe it is from different studies like someone said. |
_________________
Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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