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Mon May 28, 2012 7:49 pm |
CookieD wrote: |
Rileygirl, I still think no dr. is going to tell you to roll everyday with 1 or 2mm. |
Definitely agree with you on that! |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:51 pm |
Lacy53 wrote: |
rileygirl wrote: |
Keliu wrote: |
Quote: |
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day)".
What does everyone make of that? |
Yes, I am totally confused by that, too! For what it is worth, I do know that Dr. Fernandes likes the use of the cosmetic roll-CIT daily when your skin can handle it. |
"Methods: Measurements for brown spots, pores, wrinkles, evenness and UV spots were used to determine effectiveness of products alone vs. the use of rollers with 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm, 1 mm and 2 mm long needles combined with products".
That first line in the chart refers to daily topical application of appropriate products without any dermarolling. |
Your right on that but what does rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day) mean. That's what we are trying to find out. |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Mon May 28, 2012 8:08 pm |
My guess is that daily reference is to the product application once a day...the rolling was on very different schedules. |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 8:09 pm |
CookieD wrote: |
Lacy53 wrote: |
rileygirl wrote: |
Keliu wrote: |
Quote: |
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day)".
What does everyone make of that? |
Yes, I am totally confused by that, too! For what it is worth, I do know that Dr. Fernandes likes the use of the cosmetic roll-CIT daily when your skin can handle it. |
"Methods: Measurements for brown spots, pores, wrinkles, evenness and UV spots were used to determine effectiveness of products alone vs. the use of rollers with 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm, 1 mm and 2 mm long needles combined with products".
That first line in the chart refers to daily topical application of appropriate products without any dermarolling. |
Your right on that but what does rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day) mean. That's what we are trying to find out. |
I assumed the "once a day" meant product application, whether you roll that day or not. I agree, the article is confusing! |
_________________ Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Mon May 28, 2012 8:16 pm |
My 'guess'...the frequency of rolling is dependent on the needle length.
I cannot imagine to roll once a day. Too uncomfortable and time consuming.
Don't you just love when data conflicts? More so when the new data and research is based on the previous?
http://www.spmuc.com.au/downloads/Skin-Needling-What.pdf
6-8 weeks for me.
Will be interested to read the differences in the Setterfield book and the basis. |
_________________ If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 28, 2012 8:19 pm |
bethany wrote: |
My guess is that daily reference is to the product application once a day...the rolling was on very different schedules. |
I agree with both you and Lacy. I think it means product once a day and the frequency of rolling is one the chart column under freq |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Tue May 29, 2012 5:37 am |
My take is there are differing opinions & some conflicting data coming out of various studies over the years, so finding the optimal rolling schedule, optimal needle length, optimal topicals is the key thing, at the risk of sounding obvious.
I don't see any issues with using cosmetic length rollers on a daily basis, it's the longer needled rollers that concern me, since regardless, don't we already know enough about the scarless wound healing cyle to determine optimal intervals?.. and is that cycle age dependent?
That's another thing on my mind lately, lol.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 5:56 am |
I have a 0.5mm and a 1.0mm. I'm afraid I don't really have any kind of a schedule, I just roll when I feel like it - because I also do regular Lactic Acid peels - and I've also signed up for six monthly laser treatments. So it's a matter of juggling all these things. I do tend to use the 0.5mm far more often than the 1.0mm - maybe once a fortnight.
I also find that my skin peels soon after I've done a roll, so that's another thing to take into consideration.
Now I know I've been harping on about this - but tonight I did a 0.5mm roll and I barely felt a thing - I swear the Lyapko Roller has toughened up my skin. Or maybe it's because my rollers have become dull. On the other hand, with the amount of abuse my skin gets, my epidermis is probably half an inch thick! |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue May 29, 2012 6:13 am |
bethany wrote: |
One more since needle length keeps coming up....
Quote: |
Further studies by Dr Fernandes and Dr Aust in Germany concluded that similar results could be obtained using a 1 mm roller. In 2008, Dr Greco authored an abstract and stated that biopsies revealed new collagen to a depth of 0.6 mm. Even though 2.0 mm needles were used, no new collagen fibers could be found in the sub dermal layer illustrating no benefit to using longer more invasive needles
http://www.acaciadermacare.com/upload/docs/Cosmetic%20vs%20Medical%20Needling%20Abstract.pdf |
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Exactly the info I was hoping for, Bethany...thank you! |
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Tue May 29, 2012 6:27 am |
bethany wrote: |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes)
Do any of the Environ products incorporate an ingredient from every or nearly every category all in one serum?..or would getting all these require multiple serums and if so, how and when would you roll them in?
That's my question.
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If you look at the 2008 study that was quoted (link below), they used the Environ Original Cream (Vit A) plus the Environ C Boost.
http://www.karl-ludwig.fi/@Bin/122579/PRS2008_Clinical_PCI.pdf
I am using the Environ Ionzyme line which combines Vit A and C, along with peptides, etc. which is what Dr. F is currently recommending pre-roll. Then I will use the A, C, E oil afterwards as also recommended. The author states that all of those are required for collagen synthesis, but until I read the book and hear otherwise I am assuming that he does not expect ALL of them to be supplemented. I would also assume that some are already present in our bodies? But I guess I'll know more when my book arrives tomorrow. |
Bethany, I'm likely having a dolt moment, but I can't seem to locate the vitamin A, C E oil on any Environ stockist sites. Do you happen to know the acutal name of that Environ product? Thanks! |
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Tue May 29, 2012 6:32 am |
Hi Ethel, not Bethany, but the A, C, E oil is in the body products section. Vitamin A, C, and E body oil. It used to be called EssentiA oil. |
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Tue May 29, 2012 6:40 am |
rileygirl wrote: |
Hi Ethel, not Bethany, but the A, C, E oil is in the body products section. Vitamin A, C, and E body oil. It used to be called EssentiA oil. |
Ah, thanks Rileygirl! |
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Tue May 29, 2012 7:07 am |
Thanks for bringing that up Bethany...I never considered that some of these would already be present in our skin, lol.
Guess I am having a brain lapse...
Of course, as I recall, the vitamins are the only nutrients depleted by exposure (to sun, pollution, etc.)? right?
So, the others would already be in the skin?
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 7:44 am |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
Thanks for bringing that up Bethany...I never considered that some of these would already be present in our skin, lol.
Guess I am having a brain lapse...
Of course, as I recall, the vitamins are the only nutrients depleted by exposure (to sun, pollution, etc.)? right?
So, the others would already be in the skin?
BFG |
But others, like growth factors and hormones, decrease with age, so perhaps they do need to be supplemented as well.
Does anyone know what Dr. Fermandes' current protocol is for actives to be used with rolling (pre and post)? Has he adjusted his A&C protocol more recently? I wonder where colostrum fits into Dr. F's program? I also noticed the forms of vitamin C mentioned in Dr. Setterfield's article did not include Tetra, which is curious and interesting. He did include retinyl palmitate in his selection of vitamin A, however. |
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Tue May 29, 2012 9:10 am |
Has anyone looked at Dr. Setterfield's website?
www.acaciadermacare.com (thanks Bethany) It has a lot of great information and he sells the Environ products and does the DF facials. If anyone is near Victoria BC it might be worth going. Plus he sells the book from his site and postage to different countries in included. Don't know if price is good or not.
Other things I learned were 80% of photo damage is done by the age of 18. Kind of makes you wonder if it's worth caring so much about sunscreen at my age Also under products on the Environ page there is a picture of a girls face and it says it took a year to increase her Vit. A dose to meaningful levels-used Ultra Vit A. She does have Rosacea and it says patients are typically sensitive to Vit A
Also he is going to be doing a new thing called Corneotherapy ...restoring the stratum corneum( top layer of skin) This is the opposite of most treatments that strip the top layer away. Has anyone heard or done this therapy?
He also sells something called lotion supreme he raves about under products. I did a google search but came up dry. Anyone heard of this? |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Tue May 29, 2012 9:21 am |
He is affiliated with selling the rollers and serums, as it seems all derms push one thing or another.
On this site, he is clear about using the .2 or .3 daily, then the .5 once/week. (see pull down menu)
http://ens-dermalintegrity.bridgelabs.ca/templates/textPage.php?pageid=70
I don't know, I think he is fence straddling on the .5 in order to promote that to home users, while indicating in his book, that it falls under the category of medical needling, not cosmetic needling.
Personally, I think I will stick with .2 or .3, then montly or longer with 1.0 or greater, but that's just me.
I find it interesting that his company dermaindividuals is selling serums that are similar to DIY, and combining copper peptides with HA.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 9:34 am |
Here's another informative piece:
http://www.humannurture.com.au/documents/DermalRollingWeb.pdf
This clarifies the .5 to be used once a month, not more frequently to avoid collagenese.
So we have Dr. F promoting 1.0 from his own clinical work and Dr. S promoting .5 from his own.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 10:52 am |
CookieD wrote: |
Has anyone looked at Dr. Setterfield's website?
www.acaciadermacare.com (thanks Bethany) It has a lot of great information and he sells the Environ products and does the DF facials. If anyone is near Victoria BC it might be worth going. Plus he sells the book from his site and postage to different countries in included. Don't know if price is good or not.
Other things I learned were 80% of photo damage is done by the age of 18. Kind of makes you wonder if it's worth caring so much about sunscreen at my age Also under products on the Environ page there is a picture of a girls face and it says it took a year to increase her Vit. A dose to meaningful levels-used Ultra Vit A. She does have Rosacea and it says patients are typically sensitive to Vit A
Also he is going to be doing a new thing called Corneotherapy ...restoring the stratum corneum( top layer of skin) This is the opposite of most treatments that strip the top layer away. Has anyone heard or done this therapy?
He also sells something called lotion supreme he raves about under products. I did a google search but came up dry. Anyone heard of this? |
He is higher than Amazon for the book,
I paid $65.00 (compared to his at $75.00) and free shipping on order over $25.00 at Amazon! |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue May 29, 2012 11:13 am |
I noticed that in several places he mentioned that his list of actives was not meant to be comprehensive, so I think we're left hanging a bit there, with only the specific recs from Dr. F.
I did send Dr. S an email, we'll see what we get, if anything.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 11:23 am |
Just a thought here,
If he did not add his own new protocol and actives what would be the point of a book and his own line of products?
Not saying it is bad, just that without his new input there would be no point! |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue May 29, 2012 11:32 am |
His protocol is somewhat different, his list of actives is more *comprehensive* and his research is different.
I've mentioned at least three times here that if people have specific questions, to let us know and we can try to find it in the book.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 11:38 am |
I just read my last two posts and realized there might be confusion.
His list of "skin nutrients" is not wholly comprehensive, but it's a bunch more comprehensive than what we've seen elsewhere in other places.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 11:44 am |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
I just read my last two posts and realized there might be confusion.
His list of "skin nutrients" is not wholly comprehensive, but it's a bunch more comprehensive than what we've seen elsewhere in other places.
BFG |
I agree BFG, it was not a criticism just that if he stuck strictly to Dr. Fernandez's protocol what would be the point of putting all his time in to research and writing a book based on that. |
_________________ I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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