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Wed May 30, 2012 2:37 pm  |
| Sorry DM - I don't do DIY (except for Kassy's Vit C), so I don't know what emulsifiers are. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Wed May 30, 2012 2:39 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Maybe rolling in preservatives (like phenoxy ethanol etc.) isn't such a good idea either? |
I agree on that Lotusesther, not in my skin, but to each their own!  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 30, 2012 3:43 pm |
| foxe wrote: |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Ok, I have sent the questions and my own comments.
With regard to what not to use with rolling, he answered that one last night...he mentioned any serum containing emulsifiers, which I understand to mean anything containing both water and oil solubles. BFG |
So ... no Cellese AnteAGE products after rolling then? |
What were the emulsifiers in AnteAGE?? (And, I was thinking this might be a good product to try in a future roll) |
I was wondering about Polysorbate-20 in the Serum, and Polysorbate-60 in the Accelerator. I phrased my statement as a question though, since I am not sure. Hopefully someone who formulates knows the answer. In the meantime, I am reading these articles and trying to put it all together:
http://cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_details.php?ingredient_id=457
http://www.dermaviduals.com/english/publications/ingredients/emulsifiers-enable-mixtures.html
I wondered about preservatives as well, even if they aren't Parabens. What about Tetrasodium EDTA ... is that okay to roll into the skin? |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Wed May 30, 2012 4:46 pm |
Quote:
The channels remain open for about 15 minutes.
My comment - this means I'll be showering real quick after a deep roll. He did not specify needle length here.
About copper peptides and Vitamin C:
Copper peptides oxidize L-Ascorbic Acid….there are other forms of Vitamin C. Dermaviduals uses sodium ascorbyl phosphate inserted into liposomes that protect against oxidization from oxygen and copper. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002364381100226X
About Sonophoresis:
You don’t need Sonophoresis if you are rolling. You get 80% greater absorption with rolling. The home use devices are toys anyway. Don’t waste your money.
DragoN may have a differing opinion, lol.
About short vs. deep and what to roll in - you can bet if he was referring to things not to roll in, he at least meant the deep roll, the short rolls, I don't know - personally, I am not worried about those. You may have to decide for yourself or maybe someone can find something else buried in the book or elsewhere.
And finally this:
I am writing an e-book for the consumer that will hopefully help navigate the murky waters.Take care.
BFG |
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Wed May 30, 2012 4:54 pm |
I have been thinking about that greatly enhanced absorption. When you have a regular skin serum, the concentrations of active ingredients is based, I think, on the assumption that only a small part of it will get through.
I read in the Cellese thread that Bethany had a fierce reaction - persisting redness - after a roll with very short needles and application of a vit AC serum. I notice that my home made stuff stings when applied after a roll.
I wonder now, if that high concentrations are OK when rolling? Shouldn't it be better to water down the serum or use something with a relatively low concentration, to prevent possible damage? Especially with ingredients that are very acidic or possible irritants? |
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Wed May 30, 2012 4:59 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
I have been thinking about that greatly enhanced absorption. When you have a regular skin serum, the concentrations of active ingredients is based, I think, on the assumption that only a small part of it will get through.
I read in the Cellese thread that Bethany had a fierce reaction - persisting redness - after a roll with very short needles and application of a vit AC serum. I notice that my home made stuff stings when applied after a roll.
I wonder now, if that high concentrations are OK when rolling? Shouldn't it be better to water down the serum or use something with a relatively low concentration, to prevent possible damage? Especially with ingredients that are very acidic or possible irritants? |
My plan especially for the 1mm roll (as deep as I want to go) is a homemade A, C and E oil based potion, I am not looking to mess up my skin, which at my age is not bad to begin with! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 30, 2012 5:04 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
I read in the Cellese thread that Bethany had a fierce reaction - persisting redness - after a roll with very short needles and application of a vit AC serum. |
I am wondering how much irritation was caused just by the roller...the next time I try it I am going to skip the actives and see what happens. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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havana8
Moderator
 
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3449
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Wed May 30, 2012 8:22 pm |
That was 4 more than I found...thanks! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu May 31, 2012 10:28 am |
In case it helps on the search for the "ingredient lists" (for well guarded products,) I have always had my best luck searching 'beauty blog reviews'..
Found this and hope it helps;
http://allaboutskinlightening.net/2010/03/product-recommendation-environ.html
Environ Evenescence Clarifying Lotion:
Ingredients:
Water, Pentylene Glycol, Denatured Alcohol, Niacinamide, Undecylenoyl Phenylalanine (Sepiwhite), Ethoxydiglycol, Propylene Glycol, Witch Hazel Water (Hamamelis Virginiana), Undecylenic Acid, Witch Hazel Bark/Twig/Leaf Extract (Hamamelis Virginiana), Tromethamine
http://109.234.197.76/~beauty/blog/?p=47
AVST 1
Ingredients
Retinyl Palminate (Vitamin A) Low Levels
Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate (Vitamin C)
Vitamin E
Green Tea
Rooisbos Tea
Honeybush Extract
Beta Carotene
Panthenol
Rosemary Leaf Extract
Resveratrol
AVST 2:
Ingredients
Retinyl Palminate (Vitamin A) Mild Levels
Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate (Vitamin C)
Vitamin E
Green Tea
Rooisbos Tea
Honeybush Extract
Beta Carotene
Panthenol
Rosemary Leaf Extract
Resveratrol
AVST 3:
Ingredients
Retinyl Palminate (Vitamin A) Medium Levels
Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate (Vitamin C)
Vitamin E
Green Tea
Rooisbos Tea
Honeybush Extract
Beta Carotene
Panthenol
Rosemary Leaf Extract
Resveratrol
Matrixyl
AVST 4:
Ingredients
Retinyl Palminate (Vitamin A) High Levels
Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate (Vitamin C)
Vitamin E
Green Tea
Rooisbos Tea
Honeybush Extract
Beta Carotene
Panthenol
Rosemary Leaf Extract
Resveratrol
Matrixyl
AVST 5:
Ingredients
Retinyl Palminate (Vitamin A) Highest Levels
Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate (Vitamin C)
Vitamin E
Green Tea
Rooisbos Tea
Honeybush Extract
Beta Carotene
Panthenol
Rosemary Leaf Extract
Resveratrol
Matrixyl
And from an old thread here from 2006 (not sure if anything changed since..
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=17564
C-Boost (from a post Rileygirl shared):
water, ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate, Caprylic/Capri triglyceride, Hydrogenated polydecene, pentylene glycol, propylene glycol, ethoxydigycol, glycerine, glyceryl stearate, PEG-100, stearic acid, tocopheryl acetate, acrylates/C10-30 alkyl acrylate, crosspolymer, disodium EDTA, sodium hydroxide.
And from a 1 time poster who seems to be an Environ insider (regarding the vit A
The form of vitamin A in the Original Range is Retinyl Palmitate (the form of vitamin A which is naturally occuring in our bodies) and starts at 1,250 I.U.'s (international units), going all the way up to 5,000 I.U's. Once a client has gone up the entire vitamin A ladder (or for the die-hards, or current .1% Retin-A users), they would progress to Retinol 1 which is in the Intensive Range. After Retinol 1, they would then move to 2, 3, and finally 4. These products contain the highest concentrations of vitamin A out of all the Environ ranges. Retinol 1 is retinol only (20,000 I.U.), Retinol 2-4 contains retinol, retinyl palmitate, and retinol acetate. I believe the I'U.'s of these products to be 30,000, 40,000, and 50,000 respectively.
This should help you guys figure out pretty closely "what's" in "what"... The ingredients I "bolded" above, are a safe bet as to which preservatives, emulsifiers, solvents etc, are probably repeated in the other products..
Hope that helps a bit! |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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havana8
Moderator
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3449
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Thu May 31, 2012 10:45 am |
Interesting, it seems there are many other Environ ingredient listings at EWG that aren't included in the first link--most noted as 2007 formulations, and a few others with no date such as the RAD Sunscreen SPF16, Sebuspot Lotion, Active Sebutrol:
type in google: environ site:www.ewg.org/skindeep
Regarding the change in formulations, there is this from 09: http://www.chelleon.co.uk/downloads/Paraben_Dr_Des_Environ.pdf
This website doesn't work well for me but it does post the ingredient listings for most of the Environ products such as the Focus Frown Serum, Intensive C-Boost, C-Quence 1, 2, 3, 4, Cleansing Gel, Cleansing Lotion, etc.
Several Environ ingredient listings on Cosmetic Analysis: http://www.cosmeticanalysis.com/cosmetic-brands/environ.html
Not sure if this link has been posted before but thought some might find this Environ presentation interesting: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/84676090/English
Edited to add--here is one other with several INCI listings: http://www.codecheck.info/product.search?q=environ&OK=Suchen |
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Thu May 31, 2012 10:55 am |
Thanks for posting the ingredients. I just dont feel comfortable rolling that into my skin - either a light (for penetration) or deep roll.
The more I am thinking about it, I will be doing a semi DIY serum. No extra stuff.
Like Skin Actives Antiox Booster: may add vitamin A and C to this:
Pomegranate (Punica Granatum) Seed Oil, Tocotrienols, Alpha-D-Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Astaxanthin, Lycopene, Lutein, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Beta Carotene |
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42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Thu May 31, 2012 11:20 am |
| erg wrote: |
Thanks for posting the ingredients. I just dont feel comfortable rolling that into my skin - either a light (for penetration) or deep roll.
The more I am thinking about it, I will be doing a semi DIY serum. No extra stuff.
Like Skin Actives Antiox Booster: may add vitamin A and C to this:
Pomegranate (Punica Granatum) Seed Oil, Tocotrienols, Alpha-D-Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Astaxanthin, Lycopene, Lutein, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Beta Carotene |
LOL. erg,
That was one "base" I was also thinking about using for my DIY!
I feel the same regardless of the needle size it breaks the skin and I am not comfortable with the ingredients in the ready made products either!
PS Thank You Havana! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu May 31, 2012 11:59 am |
Oh dear, I was quite happy with my routine of using the .25mm roller with the environ products ( the hydrating serum, the the ACE oil, with a dash of Fawnies kinnag serum, and sometimes Active Formulas Chas serum.) Rather laissez faire, sometimes rolling in sometimes not.
 
Not quite so sure now
Think I will carry on as so far I havent had any adverse reactions, ( Probably far too early to tell, and my face will shrivel and fall off in 10 yrs time culmunating in a major face lift requirment   |
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46 got (PMD,Caci,QuasarMD,Tria , skin spatula) Using, environ , myfawnie serums, lacsal, retinol, GHk probably more but too embarrased to say |
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Thu May 31, 2012 12:05 pm |
Essentially, that is the same mix I use...oil based vitamins shown to have antioxidant activity (which I think most do). The base of my recipe is a rich deeply orange colored oil...(beta carotene, red palm, axanstanthin (murdered the spelling). All of it comes from fish or plants.
BFG |
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Thu May 31, 2012 12:24 pm |
Sorry BFG
Were you responding to my post and if so, are you DIY ing everything 
TIA |
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46 got (PMD,Caci,QuasarMD,Tria , skin spatula) Using, environ , myfawnie serums, lacsal, retinol, GHk probably more but too embarrased to say |
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Thu May 31, 2012 12:24 pm |
| Which ready-made products can be rolled into the skin? Is there a list? I only know about Infadolan and Environ A,C,E body oil? |
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Thu May 31, 2012 1:08 pm |
RS
Actually I dont think there is a definitive list I think everyone is kind of feeling their way here. |
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46 got (PMD,Caci,QuasarMD,Tria , skin spatula) Using, environ , myfawnie serums, lacsal, retinol, GHk probably more but too embarrased to say |
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Thu May 31, 2012 1:54 pm |
| 10Sylvia5 wrote: |
RS
Actually I dont think there is a definitive list I think everyone is kind of feeling their way here. |
Agreed. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu May 31, 2012 2:01 pm |
Well, then let's make a list! 
| bethany wrote: |
| 10Sylvia5 wrote: |
RS
Actually I dont think there is a definitive list I think everyone is kind of feeling their way here. |
Agreed. |
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Thu May 31, 2012 4:05 pm |
I've also wondered about rolling in oils. I have always applied an oil after roling - but then oils are anti-inflamatory and I wonder if that is counter productive.
Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu May 31, 2012 4:06 pm |
I've also wondered about rolling in oils. I have always applied an oil after roling - but then oils are anti-inflamatory and I wonder if that is counter productive.
Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu May 31, 2012 5:15 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
Sylvia - I wouldn't worry about rolling in Environ products because they're recommended by Dr Fernandes. |
I'm sticking with the Environ products. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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