Review: The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling
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free skin care · Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:38 pm

Foxe, are you planning to use Emla regularly for short needle rolls? What length needles are you using?

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:40 am

You shouldn't need to apply Emla for the shorter needles such as 0.25mm. My understanding is that, for product penetration, you apply your product and then roll it in. I wouldn't want to put Emla into the mix - plus it's quite expensive.

This is the breakdown of ingredients for AVST that Bethany posted on the Environ thread:

Capylic/Capric Triglyceride - oily mixed ester composed of caprylic and capric fatty acids derived from coconut oil and glycerin
Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil,
Tocopheryl Acetate - Vitamin E
Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate - Vitamin C
Ethylhexyl Methoxcinnamate – sun protectant
Retinyl Acetate – Vitamin A
Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane - sun protectant
Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil,
BHT – Anti-oxidant

Surely, this would be easily put together by ourselves - minus the sun protectants. I wouldn't bother adding the Vitamin A because I feel that my application of Retin-A is enough.

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:27 am

For the majority of people, short needled rollers only produce a prickling sensation or slight discomfort, surely not enough to cause serious pain, so it would concern me if I could not roll without Emla using a short needled roller...I'm not a doctor, but it would sound like the skin is already hypersensitive and therefore rolling not a good idea?...I don't know, but it doesn't sound right.

Dr. S recommends rolling first, then applying topicals, not the other way around. I like this advice as it keeps my rollers from getting gunked up with creams/gels.

BFG

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:29 am

Quote:

So is everyone now in agreement that an oil can be used post deep roll without negating the inflammation process?

I think we can agree that all serums used after a deep roll should be oil based, but with respect to the role of inflammation, I believe the jury is still out.

BFG

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:59 am

bethany- the needle length for my short needle roll is a .20. I also have a .5, 1.5 and 3 line 1.5.

I used the .2 this past week and only used Emla on the 2nd roll. The first one was not good with out it; the 2nd roll was a perfect scenario, since I had no issues and could go deep enough in all areas (very pink after that roll); the 3rd roll was not as effective with out the Emla as I sneezed from rolling on my forehead and couldn't press hard enough around my mouth. Not very pink there.

I am hoping that with more frequent rolls, my skin will toughen up and allow me to roll without sensitivity issues.

The area around my mouth has very thin skin (from damage using strong BHA peels there years ago) and I've been hoping the rolls would thicken that area up over time. Unfortunately, I haven't done enough rolls there as I dislike doing them so much. Perhaps the shorter needle rolls will help. Sigh

To answer your first question - I will probably use the Emla more often, and at least in those 2 areas until my skin thickens up. On the good news front - the area around my mouth has thickened up and improved considerably over the years from the topicals I have used there! It just needs to continue to improve.

Keliu and BFG - You're both right, but the area around my mouth seems to be an exception. I know I damaged it when I used the peels, so I'm paying the price. I can't explain about the response on my forehead, and that area will hopefully toughen up after just a few more rolls. At least, while using Emla, I can get an effective enough roll to get my topicals (that have done a good job so far) deeper than before so they can continue to help improve my skin.

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:35 pm

Interestingly, my skin reacts much better to a 1.5 mm dermastamp than to 0.25 dermaroller which always gives me red spot all around my face. Shock

I use squalane oil + retinol after my dermastamp treatment. No irritation after.

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:40 pm

Lotusesther wrote:

Roll or no roll, I use rosehip seed oil with ascorbyl palmitate and retinyl palmitate in the evening

Lotusesther, in what proportions? Do you know if ascorbyl palmitate can be mixed with anything else but oil?

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:09 pm

DM, do u also buy your oils at iherb as well? What about A&C?

You can use Retin A and LAA every day! Lucky you!

DarkMoon wrote:

10Sylvia5 wrote:

DM
that sounds like a yummy mixture, I think I might even try that as an environ alternative

Vita cost has the D3, their brand for 9.99 an oz. and it is buy one get one half price! With just 1 drop having 2000 IU it can't be beat for the price and it is in pure Olive Oil, no additives.

I just thought A&D ointment plus C sounded good to me! Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:47 pm

Just had a thought about the two sun protectant ingredients in the AVST - wouldn't they be classified as chemical sunscreens and if they are, why would we want to roll them into our skin? Especially as we're all against chemical sunscreens to begin with. Dragon - can you clear this up for me?

Russian Sunshine - Ascorbyl Palmitate is oil soluble.

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:48 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

Quote:

So is everyone now in agreement that an oil can be used post deep roll without negating the inflammation process?

I think we can agree that all serums used after a deep roll should be oil based, but with respect to the role of inflammation, I believe the jury is still out.

BFG

I'm still not brave enough to go rollin on the river, but I love this subject, and hopefully one day I'll join in the torture.. Shock

This has nothing to do with dermarolling per se, but a wound is a wound, and I think a lot of you will find this cascade of events helpful, in deciding when exactly to interfere (or not) with the inflammation, and at which of the 4 stages you want to incorporate any growth factors;

http://www.hcc.bcu.ac.uk/physiology/woundhealing.htm

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:06 pm

Just thinking out loud here (and I think some pretty strange things sometimes) - but I've just had an operation on my knee and was given anti-inflammatories to take afterwards. Surely, the wound healing process would be just as important for my knee as it is for my skin. I'm just trying to understand whether applying an anti-inflammatory oil after rolling is counter productive or not - I keep leaning towards ''not''.

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:06 pm

RussianSunshine wrote:

DM, do u also buy your oils at iherb as well? What about A&C?

You can use Retin A and LAA every day! Lucky you!

DarkMoon wrote:

10Sylvia5 wrote:

DM
that sounds like a yummy mixture, I think I might even try that as an environ alternative

Vita cost has the D3, their brand for 9.99 an oz. and it is buy one get one half price! With just 1 drop having 2000 IU it can't be beat for the price and it is in pure Olive Oil, no additives.

I just thought A&D ointment plus C sounded good to me! Very Happy

The oils I can't buy locally I get either from MMS:

http://www.thesage.com/

MRH:

http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/

TT:

http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/vcno/virgin_coconut_oil.htm?gclid=CIHq6eimuLACFQc4nAodHzV97A

Tetra C from LC:

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/tetrahexyldecyl-ascorbate-BV-OSC.html

I need to order RP just because that is what I am gravitating towards? Smile

I am not overly concerned since I do use RA 0.05% nightly.

I am tossing in some of the D3 in Olive Oil I bought at Vitacost I just figured why not! Smile

ETA: I keep telling you all I have really tough skin! Laughing

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:09 pm

Just thinking out loud here (and I think some pretty strange things sometimes) - but I've just had an operation on my knee and was given anti-inflammatories to take afterwards. Surely, the wound healing process would be just as important for my knee as it is for my skin. I'm just trying to understand whether applying an anti-inflammatory oil after rolling is counter productive or not - I keep leaning towards ''not''.

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:53 pm

If using oil post-roll is not a good idea, why would Dr F recommend it? Confused

How about using a simple DIY Hyaluronic Acid Serum after rolling??

If Ascorbyl Palmitate is oil soluble, can I add it to a cream? For example, Cerave PM Lotion?

Keliu wrote:

Just thinking out loud here (and I think some pretty strange things sometimes) - but I've just had an operation on my knee and was given anti-inflammatories to take afterwards. Surely, the wound healing process would be just as important for my knee as it is for my skin. I'm just trying to understand whether applying an anti-inflammatory oil after rolling is counter productive or not - I keep leaning towards ''not''.

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:14 pm

RussianSunshine wrote:

If using oil post-roll is not a good idea, why would Dr F recommend it? Confused

Exactly! But I find the fact that oils are anti-inflammatory confusing - considering it is the inflammation that we are after. However, from my first roll to this day, I have always applied an oil and I've been happy with the results - so in one way I feel vindicated!

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:20 pm

Keliu wrote:

RussianSunshine wrote:

If using oil post-roll is not a good idea, why would Dr F recommend it? Confused

Exactly! But I find the fact that oils are anti-inflammatory confusing - considering it is the inflammation that we are after. However, from my first roll to this day, I have always applied an oil and I've been happy with the results - so in one way I feel vindicated!

Maybe the inflammation caused by the injury from rolling is more than any oil can counteract? Just throwing a thought out there. Wink

free skin care · Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:44 am

I have found another source for the chart on oils that I posted earlier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linolic_acid

Except here the percentages represent Linoleic Acid and not Ceramides. I think the confusion comes from the fact that Lipids contain Ceramides.

Quote:

LA is a polyunsaturated fatty acid used in the biosynthesis of arachidonic acid (AA) and thus some prostaglandins. It is found in the lipids of cell membranes. It is abundant in many vegetable oils, comprising over half (by weight) of poppy seed, safflower, sunflower, and corn oils.

http://www.dermaviduals.de/english/pdf-english/KI-11-99-Ceramide-engl.pdf

Quote:

A characteristic of ceramide I is its high linoleic acid content, an essential fatty acid, which is vital for the body but can only be supplied over the nutrition or locally applied on the skin with the help of appropriate linoleic acid-containing products.

Quote:

The most elegant method to enrich the skin with linoleic acid and support the formation of ceramide I is integrating linoleic acid in the skin in form of liposomes and nanoparticles. Liposomes and nanoparticles penetrate very well into the horny layer where they form depots.

I'm not going to pretend that I understand any of this, but it would seem that some oils (such as Safflower) are high in Linoleic Acid which is a good source of Ceramides.

free skin care · Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:56 am

Keliu,
RE: Chemical SS component, no, I don't want that rolled into my skin.

And another:

Skin Res Technol. 2008 Aug;14(3):376-80.
In vitro antioxidant activity and in vivo efficacy of topical formulations containing vitamin C and its derivatives studied by non-invasive methods.
Campos PM, Gonçalves GM, Gaspar LR.
Source

Faculdade de Ciências Farmacêuticas de Ribeirão Preto, Universidade de São Paulo, São Paulo, Brazil. pmcampos@usp.br
Abstract
BACKGROUND/PURPOSE:

Vitamins C and its derivatives, mainly due to their antioxidant properties, are being used in cosmetic products to protect and to reduce the signs of ageing. However, there are no studies comparing the effects of vitamin C [ascorbic acid (AA)] and its derivatives, magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (MAP) and ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate (ATIP), when vehiculated in topical formulations, mainly using objective measurements, which are an important tool in clinical efficacy studies. Thus, the objective of this study was to determine the in vitro antioxidant activity of AA and its derivatives, MAP and ATIP, as well as their in vivo efficacy on human skin, when vehiculated in topical formulations.
METHODS:

The study of antioxidant activity in vitro was performed with an aqueous and a lipid system. The in vivo methodology consisted of the application of these formulations on human volunteers' forearm skin and the analysis of the skin conditions after 4-week period daily applications in terms of transepidermal water loss (TEWL), stratum corneum moisture content and viscoelasticity using a Tewameter, Corneometer and Cutometer, respectively.
RESULTS:

In vitro experiments demonstrated that in an aqueous system, AA had the best antioxidant potential, and MAP was more effective than ATIP, whereas in the lipid system ATIP was more effective than MAP. In in vivo studies, all formulations enhanced stratum corneum moisture content after a 4-week period daily applications when compared with baseline values; however, only the formulation containing AA caused alterations in TEWL values. The formulations containing MAP caused alterations in the viscoelastic-to-elastic ratio, which suggested its action in the deeper layers of the skin.
CONCLUSION:

AA and its derivates presented an in vitro antioxidant activity but AA had the best antioxidant effect. In in vivo efficacy studies, only the formulation containing AA caused alterations in TEWL values and the formulation containing MAP caused alterations in the viscoelastic-to-elastic ratio. This way, vitamin C derivatives did not present the same effects of AA on human skin; however, MAP showed other significant effect-improving skin hydration, which is very important for the normal cutaneous metabolism and also to prevent skin alterations and early ageing.

I am biased of course. You can make a very potent post roll serum incorporating your oils and water soluble actives without the use of an emulsifier, or use one, lecithin and enjoy the best of everything.

free skin care · Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:16 am

So to sum up (according to this study) the order of effectiveness for varieties of Vitamin C, it goes like this: AA, ATIP and then MAP.

This really doesn't concern me because I use AA every day. But I see no problem in adding some ATIP to my oils just for the heck of it!

free skin care · Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:57 am

Not exactly ...no...as an antioxidant, perhaps. But not from the perspective of hydration nor elasticity. Which makes sense as you know the role Magnesium plays in elastin. i.e. key component relating to dermal laxity.

If you are going through the pain of rolling, which is primarily to address the issue of laxity, then it makes sense or not, to utilize the more appropriate topical actives?

Not that you're interested but:
Regulation of collagen synthesis in human dermal fibroblasts by the sodium and magnesium salts of ascorbyl-2-phosphate.
Geesin JC, Gordon JS, Berg RA.
Source

Department of Biochemistry, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, Piscataway 08854.
Abstract

Ascorbic acid has been shown to stimulate collagen synthesis in dermal fibroblasts by increasing the rate of transcription of collagen genes. Experiments involving the use of ascorbic acid require daily supplementation due to the instability of the molecule in aqueous solutions. In order to provide a more stable alternative to ascorbic acid, two salts of ascorbyl-2-phosphate, having a greater chemical stability than ascorbic acid, were tested for their ability to stimulate collagen synthesis in monolayer fibroblast cultures. The concentration and time dependence of their activities were compared with ascorbic acid. The magnesium salt of ascorbyl-2-phosphate was found to be equivalent to ascorbic acid in stimulating collagen synthesis in these assays, while the sodium salt required at least a tenfold greater concentration to produce the same effect as ascorbic acid. Solutions of either ascorbic acid or the ascorbyl-2-phosphate analogs (at 10 mM) in phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) were relatively stable as shown by their decay rates and their ability to stimulate collagen synthesis even after nine days in solution prior to testing their effects on cultured cells. Ascorbic acid was unstable at neutral pH compared to solutions of either sodium or magnesium ascorbyl-2-phosphate. These data support the use of magnesium ascorbyl-2-phosphate in experiments where stability of ascorbic acid is a concern, e.g. in long-term cultures or in in vivo studies.

And this is the oil soluble:
Dermatol Surg. 2002 Mar;28(3):231-6.
Double-blind, half-face study comparing topical vitamin C and vehicle for rejuvenation of photodamage.
Fitzpatrick RE, Rostan EF.
Source

Dermatology Associates of San Diego County, Inc. 92024, USA. fitzskin@pacbell.net
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Aging of the population, in particular the "baby boomers," has resulted in increased interest in methods of reversal of photodamage. Non-invasive treatments are in high demand, and our knowledge of mechanisms of photodamage to skin, protection of the skin, and repair of photodamage are becoming more sophisticated and complex.
OBJECTIVE:

The objective of this study is to determine if the topical use of a vitamin C preparation can stimulate the skin to repair photodamage and result in clinically visible differences, as well as microscopically visible improvement.
METHODS:

Ten patients applied in a double-blind manner a newly formulated vitamin C complex having 10% ascorbic acid (water soluble) and 7% tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate (lipid soluble) in an anhydrous polysilicone gel base to one-half of the face and the inactive polysilicone gel base to the opposite side. Clincial evaluation of wrinkling, pigmentation, inflammation, and hydration was performed prior to the study and at weeks 4, 8, and 12. Two mm punch biopsies of the lateral cheeks were performed at 12 weeks in four patients and stained with hematoxylin and eosin, as well as in situ hybridization studies using an anti-sense probe for mRNA for type I collagen. A questionnaire was also completed by each patient.
RESULTS:

A statistically significant improvement of the vitamin C-treated side was seen in the decreased photoaging scores of the cheeks (P = 0.006) and the peri-oral area (P = 0.01). The peri-orbital area improved bilaterally, probably indicating improved hydration. The overall facial improvement of the vitamin C side was statistically significant (P = 0.01). Biopsies showed increased Grenz zone collagen, as well as increased staining for mRNA for type I collagen. No patients were found to have any evidence of inflammation. Hydration was improved bilaterally. Four patients felt that the vitamin C-treated side improved unilaterally. No patient felt the placebo side showed unilateral improvement.
CONCLUSION:

This formulation of vitamin C results in clinically visible and statistically significant improvement in wrinkling when used topically for 12 weeks. This clinical improvement correlates with biopsy evidence of new collagen formation.

What they have shown, is that 10% LAA was effective with or without TetraC...which is a known.

What is also known, MAP is 1:1 with LAA. And...seems to be helpful in the elasticity department where Tetra fails as does LAA.

Nothing is perfect, but some things, more 'perfect' for the job than others. Depends on your goals.

free skin care · Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:54 am

DragoN wrote:

You can make a very potent post roll serum incorporating your oils and water soluble actives without the use of an emulsifier, or use one, lecithin and enjoy the best of everything.

Dragon, can you list the ingredients you would (or do?) include in a post roll serum?

free skin care · Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:36 am

Kinetin,B3,NAG, Retinol, Borage Oil. Vit E, Lecithin, AA2G, B5, carnosine, Genistein, Proline, ALA ,Retinol, Glycerin,CoQ10, EGCG, PAL KTTKS few others back bone remains the same though..Chrysin, VitK. Depends on my mood. I change it up and add this or that in depending on what I feel like. The carriers are actives. For post roll, I drop the preservative, not necessary but not bad either. Used in wound dressings, nothing really wrong with it. Thing is, my skin gets that treatment all the time. So, it's just a little extra in there with the needle delivery and the cytokine healing cascade being kicked into high gear. Same for US, but then my gels are loaded as well.

However, based on the efficacy of the AnteAge serums, and that they are practically a match for the daily dose of actives, and they contain that something extra...I will use them for post roll. They are really that nice. With or without the cytokines, it's very effective, a little more so with regards to the rate of healing. I can't complain about that.

free skin care · Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:57 am

The studies you linked referenced other forms of Vitamin C, not the one you would use in your own serum?

Are there studies showing that AA2G is better than the others?

Thanks, BFG

free skin care · Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:37 pm

The question was what do I use in a post roll serum. I use MAP and AA2G interchangeably. I like both, but there are limits with the formulations I can do some things with one that I cannot do with the other. Can't force it, or it won't work.

Define better? That is such a mixed bag of a term. Better for what precisely? Each C derivative is different and has different properties, there is not one of the derivatives that is better at "everything". And some of the C derivatives are next to useless from a topical dermal application at any rate.

free skin care · Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:06 pm

DragoN wrote:

However, based on the efficacy of the AnteAge serums, and that they are practically a match for the daily dose of actives, and they contain that something extra...I will use them for post roll.

Thank you for the information, Dragon. Just wanted to clarify if the ingredients (both your own and AnteAGE) are for after a longer needle roll or just a penetration roll (maybe both?). I hesitate to use the cytokines directly after a longer needle roll due to the healing cycle and what Bethany has written about not using CP's until day 5 of a longer needle roll.

On a side note, the MAP is looking very interesting to me, and I definitely may give something like that a try!

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