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Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:59 pm  |
Better defined as which form of Vitamin C is most effective for:
clinically visible and statistically significant improvement in wrinkling when used topically This clinical improvement correlates with biopsy evidence of new collagen formation.
In other words, why would one choose AA2G over MAP or Tetra C?
What would be the circumstances where we would want to choose one versus the other?
Cost? Effectiveness (see goals in italics above)? Ease of incorporating into a serum?
I understand we would not want to use LAA in conjunction with dermal needling, but choosing the optimal form(s) of C for post rolling in an oil based serum is an important question.
BFG |
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:28 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Just thinking out loud here (and I think some pretty strange things sometimes) - but I've just had an operation on my knee and was given anti-inflammatories to take afterwards. Surely, the wound healing process would be just as important for my knee as it is for my skin. I'm just trying to understand whether applying an anti-inflammatory oil after rolling is counter productive or not - I keep leaning towards ''not''. |
The key variable is age. The older we get, the more prone we are to getting stuck in the inflammatory phase of wound healing. If you have diabetes (which is like accelerated aging in terms of skin), wounds may get so stuck in an inflammation loop that they never heal. Inflammation in wounds is mediated by cytokines. Inflammatory cytokines call up mast cells and neutrophils, who excrete more inflammatory cytokines. In healthy youth this is overcome when stem cells are in abundance and begin secreting anti-inflammatory cytokines. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1167345/pdf/janat00129-0003.pdf
Cytokines also control the switch between "fetal style" (scarless) wound healing and "adult style" (fibrotic, scarring) which closely tracks the inflammatory nature of the cytokine environment. Interleukins of the inflammatory kind (e.g. IL8 ) and HNF are some of the bad cytokines. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9698538
TGF-beta is a family of cytokines closely associated with wound healing. the beta 1 and 2 versions are associated with scarring. The beta 3 molecule does the opposite, and turns off the others. It is the leading cytokine candidate to explain the remarkable lack of scarring seen with fetal surgery. Again, the longer the inflammation, the more likely to get stuck in the loop, the more TGF beta 1 & 2 > 3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1234281/?tool=pubmed
So the goal in induced matrix synthesis by wounding is to minimize inflammation. Unless you are a fetus. The result will be not just faster healing, but better quality healing. Get to the proliferative phase faster, and allow it persist longer, by keeping away inflammation.
Works for knees too (cartilage heals faster in an anti-inflammatory milieu - stem cells become chondroblasts, become happy chondrocytes). There is really interesting work involving stem cell (paracrine mediated) healing. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8150826 |
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Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:35 pm |
Unless you are a fetus.
Do you mind expanding on this ?
Thanks, BFG
PS - not a fetus, lol - just curious as to the difference between fetal and adult |
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:48 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Unless you are a fetus.
Do you mind expanding on this ?
Thanks, BFG
PS - not a fetus, lol - just curious as to the difference between fetal and adult |
Tongue in cheek. Not many fetuses read EDS, and even fewer are dermarolling. They don't need to. Although there is that change at about 12 weeks. We are thinking that maybe that would be the optimal time to start AnteAGE. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:53 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| So the goal in induced matrix synthesis by wounding is to minimize inflammation. Unless you are a fetus. The result will be not just faster healing, but better quality healing. Get to the proliferative phase faster, and allow it persist longer, by keeping away inflammation. |
This is what I was hoping was the case.
With regard to AAG2: This is what BulkActives has to say about it:
| Quote: |
WARNING!
. Ascorbyl Glucoside is VERY acidic.
. Ascorbyl Glucoside is ONLY stable at pH 5-7
. You MUST use a stong alkaline (food grade lye/sodium hydroxide) to bring the pH up to 6.
. Working with Sodium Hydroxide is DANGEROUS
. Shipping Sodium Hydroxide via international airmail is ILLEGAL!
. Food Grade Sodium Hydroxide Lye Micro Beads are readily available here: USA
We STRONGLY suggest that you only buy Ascorbyl Glucoside if you are comfortable working with Sodium Hydroxide.
Note that we also sell two other VERY stable L-ascorbic acid derivatives:
Ethyl ascorbic acid and Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate
http://www.bulkactives.com/ascorbylglucoside.htm |
So it can't even be put in the post. Not interested in all that drama. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:23 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
And to think ascorbyl palmitate is as cheap as dirt, without any of the additives.
Roll or no roll, I use rosehip seed oil with ascorbyl palmitate and retinyl palmitate in the evening (my skin reacts to LAA something fierce), always thought asc. palm. was the cheapest oil soluble option - but as I see now, only if you DIY LOL |
Lotusesther, where do you buy your retinyl palmitate? |
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:39 pm |
rileygril
| Quote: |
Thank you for the information, Dragon. Just wanted to clarify if the ingredients (both your own and AnteAGE) are for after a longer needle roll or just a penetration roll (maybe both?). I hesitate to use the cytokines directly after a longer needle roll due to the healing cycle and what Bethany has written about not using CP's until day 5 of a longer needle roll.
On a side note, the MAP is looking very interesting to me, and I definitely may give something like that a try! |
I use those ingredients on a daily basis and have for quite some time. They are quite effective.
MAP is also useful for hair growth, and effective. Have seen it working on myself and husband. Based on some obscure research. It's not a one trick pony.
No C is perfect. There is always a compromise.
BFG
| Quote: |
| I understand we would not want to use LAA in conjunction with dermal needling, but choosing the optimal form(s) of C for post rolling in an oil based serum is an important question. |
The research on TetraC I posted. And that's about all there is other than supplier data. I don't rely on supplier data. My bias.
My skin, is C loaded, so I am not too concerned about which C I put in a post roll serum. I use both, and sometimes LAA,[ not post roll] but that is generally very irritating for me no matter how I change the formulation.
MAP has pH requirements that knock out other actives. Works well with Ellagic acid. But, is a hideous color.
AA2G works well within the pH range of far more actives. The research on AA2G is quite good. I cannot post the link to my blog, but you can find it quite easily if you google AA2G. It's there.
And the NaOH scare, is ludicrous foolishness. Logic?? None. My blog shows you how and what. Read it. I refuse to rewrite it here.
Jom
You can add RP to a nice cream. It's an oil and will mix in very easily. Health Care store will carry the VitA in capsules. Calculate that, and add it in. Done. Much cheaper. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:02 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| So the goal in induced matrix synthesis by wounding is to minimize inflammation. Unless you are a fetus. The result will be not just faster healing, but better quality healing. Get to the proliferative phase faster, and allow it persist longer, by keeping away inflammation. |
This is what I was hoping was the case.
With regard to AAG2: This is what BulkActives has to say about it:
| Quote: |
WARNING!
. Ascorbyl Glucoside is VERY acidic.
. Ascorbyl Glucoside is ONLY stable at pH 5-7
. You MUST use a stong alkaline (food grade lye/sodium hydroxide) to bring the pH up to 6.
. Working with Sodium Hydroxide is DANGEROUS
. Shipping Sodium Hydroxide via international airmail is ILLEGAL!
. Food Grade Sodium Hydroxide Lye Micro Beads are readily available here: USA
We STRONGLY suggest that you only buy Ascorbyl Glucoside if you are comfortable working with Sodium Hydroxide.
Note that we also sell two other VERY stable L-ascorbic acid derivatives:
Ethyl ascorbic acid and Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate
http://www.bulkactives.com/ascorbylglucoside.htm |
So it can't even be put in the post. Not interested in all that drama. |
It is perfectly safe-Sodium Hydroxide  A.K.A-NaOH
Reasons for Citation
Sodium Hydroxide is on the Right to Know Hazardous Substance List because it is cited by OSHA, ACGIH, DOT, NIOSH, NFPA and EPA.
This chemical is on the Special Health Hazard Substance List.
Sodium Hydroxide can affect you when inhaled and by passing through the skin.
Sodium Hydroxide is a HIGHLY CORROSIVE CHEMICAL
and contact can severely irritate and burn the skin and eyes with possible eye damage.
Contact can irritate the mouth, nose and throat.
Inhaling Sodium Hydroxide can irritate the lungs. Higher exposures may cause a build-up of fluid in the lungs (pulmonary edema), a medical emergency.
Repeated exposure can lead to permanent lung damage.
Sodium Hydroxide in contact with water or moisture may generate enough heat to ignite combustibles.
There is plenty more on the link, but it must just be the crazy US government overreacting, wait don't they not do enough to protect us? 
http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1706.pdf |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:48 am |
I just Googled Sodium Hydroxide - it seems its common name is Caustic Soda!  |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:06 am |
Lye.
Correct....daily household chemical found in cosmetics. Aka Drain cleaner.  Good stuff.
Intensive Eye Cream
Noticeably reduces and delays signs of aging around the eyes
http://www.kinerase.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=301870409444&Show=ExtInfo
Purified Water, Glyceryl Stearate And Laureth-23, Isopropyl Palmitate, Propylene Glycol, Stearic Acid, Cetyl Alcohol, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil, Soya Sterol, Stearyl Alcohol, Dimethicone, Imidazolidinyl Urea, Citric Acid, Sodium Hydroxide, Methylparaben, Soluble Collagen, Carbomer, N6-Furfuryladenine, Panthenol, Propylparaben, Triethanolamine, Ascorbic Acid, Hydrolyzed Elastin, And Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:16 am |
Sodium Hydroxide is available from this site in Australia - but the warnings are rather ominous:
| Quote: |
Hazards:
Product will emit toxic vapours when heated.
Do not inhale vapours.
When adding pearls to water, work in a well ventilated space.
Always wear protective thick rubber gloves, goggles and closed in (old) shoes when handling this product.
Any pearls spilt on the floor will liquify and burn. Likewise, any dry pearls spilt onto shoes will burn through.
Rinse off any residue immediately with cool water.
If burning occurs, seek medical attention immediately.
http://www.southernskiessoapsupplies.com.au/caustic-soda-soap-making-south-australia/prod_192.html |
It burns through shoes!!! Dragon, you might be comfortable working with this stuff but I'd rather just add a little Tetra C to my oils and be done with it! |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:46 am |
I did a roll last night with a 1.5. Prepped with the Emla for 1 hour under wrap prior to rolling. It helped w/ my forehead, ridding me of the sneezing but leaving me with sniffles instead. I do think this was a productive roll. My upper lip was still sensitive, but I was able to create some blood with the roller there, so I believe I did some good.
I applied what I had left of my sample of the AnteAge Accelerator and my face is less red this morning than usual after a 1.5 roll. I think that might be good, but still worry about missing out on the 'cascade' of events that a roll without actives creates. I'm counting on what Dr J says about the good things cytokines can do by applying the Anteage post-roll instead.
FYI - for those using Emla (or substitutes) - my instruction sheet that came w/ the Rx Emla said to apply a thick paste under wrap for 1 hour for a normal procedure. Alternatively, apply the paste for 2 hours for a painful procedure. I may have to do just my upper lip area on its own next time and apply the Emla to only that area as it's very hard to occlude while also covering the rest of the face. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:56 am |
Ok, I think I get it now. There isn't really one form of C that is superior to another. Apprarently, they each have their own suitability based on the type of formulation they are included in.
BFG |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:00 am |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
And to think ascorbyl palmitate is as cheap as dirt, without any of the additives.
Roll or no roll, I use rosehip seed oil with ascorbyl palmitate and retinyl palmitate in the evening (my skin reacts to LAA something fierce), always thought asc. palm. was the cheapest oil soluble option - but as I see now, only if you DIY LOL |
Lotusesther, where do you buy your retinyl palmitate? |
From a local store that sells ingredients for soap and cosmetics. |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:39 am |
| DragoN wrote: |
You can add RP to a nice cream. It's an oil and will mix in very easily. Health Care store will carry the VitA in capsules. Calculate that, and add it in. Done. Much cheaper. |
DragoN, do you mean we can add fish liver oil (10, 000 IU) to a cream? |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:49 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
And to think ascorbyl palmitate is as cheap as dirt, without any of the additives.
Roll or no roll, I use rosehip seed oil with ascorbyl palmitate and retinyl palmitate in the evening (my skin reacts to LAA something fierce), always thought asc. palm. was the cheapest oil soluble option - but as I see now, only if you DIY LOL |
Lotusesther, where do you buy your retinyl palmitate? |
From a local store that sells ingredients for soap and cosmetics. |
Online if you can't find it locally, PureBulk:
http://purebulk.com/vitamin-a-palmitate-c-527 |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:56 am |
Yes, fish are a common source for retinyl palmitate supplements.
BFG |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:13 pm |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
| DragoN wrote: |
You can add RP to a nice cream. It's an oil and will mix in very easily. Health Care store will carry the VitA in capsules. Calculate that, and add it in. Done. Much cheaper. |
DragoN, do you mean we can add fish liver oil (10, 000 IU) to a cream? |
On this I will take lab created/stabilized! 
What is Vitamin A Palmitate?
Vitamin A palmitate is the ester of retinol (vitamin A) and palmitic acid, a major component of palm oil.
Also known as retinyl palmitate, it is a synthetic alternate for retinyl acetate in vitamin A supplements. The Vitamin A molecule is very unstable by itself. To create a more stable configuration, it is reacted with methyl palmitate.
Vitamin A palmitate is used as an antioxidant and a source of vitamin A added to low-fat milk and other dairy products to replace the vitamin content lost through the removal of milk fat.
As a dietary supplement it used to ensure that an adequate amount of vitamin A is being consumed.
Vitamin A in the diet is found in animal sources such as eggs, meat, milk, cheese, cream, liver, kidney, cod and fish oil.
The provitamin beta-carotene is also a source of vitamin A in the diet and is found in carrots, pumpkin, sweet potatoes, winter squashes, cantaloupe, pink grapefruit, apricots, broccoli, spinach and most dark green, leafy vegetables. The more intense the color of a fruit or vegetable, the higher the beta-carotene content. Vegetable sources of beta-carotene are free of fat and cholesterol.
http://purebulk.com/vitamin-a-palmitate-c-527 |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:28 pm |
Following on from discussions on anti-inflammatories and the use of oil-based actives after rolling .... (Except for the last roll) I have used aloe vera gel and my elevens are substantially diminished even when dehydrated for a several days which was not the case before! Note that I have not used any other anti-ageing actives or products consistently. If anyone wants to know why I experimented in this way in the 'Name that Fantastic Active' thread I posted links to abstracts of various studies. These indicate AV is anti-inflammatory, yet can speed wound healing and increase collagen production. Perhaps I would have got the same results from dermarolling alone or from dermarolling with A and C oil - my 'evidence' is anecdotal only.
I did a little reading on emu oil some time ago and - whilst it was by no means a comprehensive literature search - I was underwhelmed by the evidence I uncovered. Several of the claims originated with the potentially partial American Emu Association, and I found just two published studies in respect of emu oil in dermatology
http://www.j-smu.com/pdf2/200504/200504407.pdf
http://www.j-smu.com/pdf2/200411/2004111255.pdf
Note that these involve wounding rodents, some of you might wish not to click through. |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:08 pm |
Colostrum is a very potent anti-inflammatory. One of its functions is to suppress the inflammatory response of the baby to new things like food that can cause the digestive system to respond in an inflammatory way. It speeds wound healing too. Very gentle on the skin. I don't peel when I use it after rolling. For good measure I add some vitamin A and C to it, but that's a bit overkill as these vitamins are already present in colostrum. Normally cows can make their own C but the calf is given extra c by the mother until the digestion of the calf is functioning well.
Lots of research to be found through google scholar - don't be put off that there is no direct research as to skin care, there isn;t any about cytokines either... |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:43 pm |
Just wondering where do you guys order your rollers from? Where do you keep purchasing? I ordered mine from ebay previously but I dont know if they are still listed. I must be a freak. I can roll 1.5 without using any numbing cream.  |
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23yr old Asian with combination skin prone to clogged pores. hyperpigmentation from pimples. uneven skintone, scars |
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sats54
New Member
 
Joined: 28 Apr 2011
Posts: 1
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:49 pm |
| I've been needleing for the past few years every now & then. I'm 58 & told i look about 40. I started because I had laser resurfacing done that left me with a face full of scars. I use the 1.0 & now the 1.5 dermastamp.I find it's much easier to use. I just found this site & now I'm so confused. I always read your supposed to put an antibiotic cream on after needleing because you can get an infection, I can't even think of putting a retinoid on since I'm so red & sore after. It would burn & I don't think that's too good for your skin. I did hear to put CP so I put that on a few days later. I tried keeping up reading your posts but it started to get so complicated with the things you use that I figured I'd just ask what you think the most important thing to use after since you seem to know more than me. Please keep it simple for me since I don't know all these products you all seem to know about. If you can tell me the best brand too it would be appreciated. Thanks |
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:02 pm |
| faeriedust wrote: |
| Just wondering where do you guys order your rollers from? Where do you keep purchasing? I ordered mine from ebay previously but I dont know if they are still listed. I must be a freak. I can roll 1.5 without using any numbing cream. |
I am working up to my roll, went off of RA and C for a short time but want it all good!
I did order from owndoc, Dr. Roller brand thanks to Riley's recommendation! 
http://owndoc.com/ |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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