Review: The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling
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free skin care · Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:29 am

Keliu wrote:

EthelM wrote:

Do any of you dermaroll/needle your neck for collagen induction (not just for product penetration), and if so, what needle length do you use? Have you seen any positive results in terms of tightening the skin, etc.? Thanks!

I do. I've used 0.5, 0.1 and 1.5mm. I'm afraid that nothing I have done to my neck has ever improved it. And that includes two rounds of PRP treatments. The skin on my face is pretty good for my age - but my neck is terrible and nothing seems to help.

Why do you think needling hasn't been effective? It should thicken and tighten the skin on the neck just as well as on the face, since the mechanism is the same. However, needling obviously cannot repair lax platysmal banding (which is a problem that is muscular in nature) or excess adipose deposits that so many of us get as we age, so neck improvement would be limited to reducing the crepey looser skin. To be honest, I can't imagine using 1.5 mm on my neck...ouch!! The skin on my neck doesn't seem thick enough to handle much more than .5 at very most. I've never done needling on my neck, but .5 is as ambitious as I think I could be with it. My neck problems are crepey skin, starting to loosen, not banding nor fat, so I may try to needle myneck to see what happens.

free skin care · Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:40 am

I totally agree with you - in theory, neck skin should benefit from rolling in the same way as facial skin. So I don't know why mine hasn't. My neck is extremely sensitive and doesn't handle Retin-A as well as my face either. The truth is that my neck is probably much more sun damaged than my face and the fact that the skin is much thinner, makes it slower to respond.

free skin care · Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:39 am

EthelM wrote:

Keliu wrote:

EthelM wrote:

Do any of you dermaroll/needle your neck for collagen induction (not just for product penetration), and if so, what needle length do you use? Have you seen any positive results in terms of tightening the skin, etc.? Thanks!

I do. I've used 0.5, 0.1 and 1.5mm. I'm afraid that nothing I have done to my neck has ever improved it. And that includes two rounds of PRP treatments. The skin on my face is pretty good for my age - but my neck is terrible and nothing seems to help.

Why do you think needling hasn't been effective? It should thicken and tighten the skin on the neck just as well as on the face, since the mechanism is the same. However, needling obviously cannot repair lax platysmal banding (which is a problem that is muscular in nature) or excess adipose deposits that so many of us get as we age, so neck improvement would be limited to reducing the crepey looser skin. To be honest, I can't imagine using 1.5 mm on my neck...ouch!! The skin on my neck doesn't seem thick enough to handle much more than .5 at very most. I've never done needling on my neck, but .5 is as ambitious as I think I could be with it. My neck problems are crepey skin, starting to loosen, not banding nor fat, so I may try to needle myneck to see what happens.

Remember the age variable. The theory is that inducing damage mobilizes your natural repair mechanisms. But those "911" systems slow down considerably as you age. And cumulative damage in a particular region (e.g. neck) would make it even harder to mount a repair response (gnarly matrix). And that response as you age tends to be more of the scarring type (wrong ratio of TGF beta-3 to beta 1&2). So, at some point, needling alone becomes counter-productive.

free skin care · Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:58 pm

DrJ,

What would you say would be the optimal chrono age to perform needling (for anti-aging purposes) and at what approximate age would it start to become counterproductive?

BFG

free skin care · Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:58 am

DrJ wrote:

EthelM wrote:

Keliu wrote:

EthelM wrote:

Do any of you dermaroll/needle your neck for collagen induction (not just for product penetration), and if so, what needle length do you use? Have you seen any positive results in terms of tightening the skin, etc.? Thanks!

I do. I've used 0.5, 0.1 and 1.5mm. I'm afraid that nothing I have done to my neck has ever improved it. And that includes two rounds of PRP treatments. The skin on my face is pretty good for my age - but my neck is terrible and nothing seems to help.

Why do you think needling hasn't been effective? It should thicken and tighten the skin on the neck just as well as on the face, since the mechanism is the same. However, needling obviously cannot repair lax platysmal banding (which is a problem that is muscular in nature) or excess adipose deposits that so many of us get as we age, so neck improvement would be limited to reducing the crepey looser skin. To be honest, I can't imagine using 1.5 mm on my neck...ouch!! The skin on my neck doesn't seem thick enough to handle much more than .5 at very most. I've never done needling on my neck, but .5 is as ambitious as I think I could be with it. My neck problems are crepey skin, starting to loosen, not banding nor fat, so I may try to needle myneck to see what happens.

Remember the age variable. The theory is that inducing damage mobilizes your natural repair mechanisms. But those "911" systems slow down considerably as you age. And cumulative damage in a particular region (e.g. neck) would make it even harder to mount a repair response (gnarly matrix). And that response as you age tends to be more of the scarring type (wrong ratio of TGF beta-3 to beta 1&2). So, at some point, needling alone becomes counter-productive.

DrJ, so your position is that the topical application of cytokines will rebalance the TGF ratio such that older skin will be able to mount a non-scarring type repair response? If so, is it your serum that contains the cytokines to do this?

Honestly, I would feel better if Dr. Fernandes chimed in to support this benefit of the topical use of cytokines with CIT/PCI. If Dr. F concurs that this will work, I'd certainly start using your product. Has anyone asked Dr. F about cytokines?

That said, there have been photos of older women who have undergone CIT with Dr. F and who have remarkable improvement in their facial skin, so it seems clear to me that some non-scarring repair response potential must remain active and that needling isn't counterproductive in every older individual.

Another question, DrJ; Dr. F suggests using bovine colostrum (bovine being very similar to human colostrum) as an adjunct to needling. How do the cytokines in your product outperform the bovine colostrum BASED ONLY ON THE CYTOKINE/COLOSTRUM COMPARISON, and not on any other added actives in either your product or in the Environ product?

Thanks for your response.

free skin care · Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:22 am

I received this book a few days ago. I picked up a few tips from it that were useful. The Dr. encourages under eye rolling because it will give you the most noticeable results. I like the sound of that. But, I was wondering if anyone could explain the under eye rolling technique to me. The guide says counter pressure is needed against the roller to ensure that the pins penetrate. It also says to tilt the roller 70 degrees so that only one row of needles rolls inside the orbital margin. If you keep the roller flat the innermost row of needles doesn't touch down on skin hard enough because it ducks in over the orbital rim. This all makes sense, but I'm not sure what counter pressure means. Do you press backwards on the roller as it is moving forward? Also, I would think if you use a 3 line roller this technique would not need to be utilized. Any advice is appreciated.

free skin care · Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:20 pm

I use a 3 Line roller...much easier to navigate the eye area.

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:05 am

packratmack wrote:

....... It also says to tilt the roller 70 degrees so that only one row of needles rolls inside the orbital margin. If you keep the roller flat the innermost row of needles doesn't touch down on skin hard enough because it ducks in over the orbital rim. This all makes sense, but I'm not sure what counter pressure means. Do you press backwards on the roller as it is moving forward? Also, I would think if you use a 3 line roller this technique would not need to be utilized. Any advice is appreciated.

I use Genosys Eye Area Mini Derma Roller http://www.makemeheal.com/mmh/product.do?id=123128. It's really a handy tool. Very easy to handle and use it under your eyes.

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:08 pm

MACrisis wrote:

packratmack wrote:

....... It also says to tilt the roller 70 degrees so that only one row of needles rolls inside the orbital margin. If you keep the roller flat the innermost row of needles doesn't touch down on skin hard enough because it ducks in over the orbital rim. This all makes sense, but I'm not sure what counter pressure means. Do you press backwards on the roller as it is moving forward? Also, I would think if you use a 3 line roller this technique would not need to be utilized. Any advice is appreciated.

I use Genosys Eye Area Mini Derma Roller http://www.makemeheal.com/mmh/product.do?id=123128. It's really a handy tool. Very easy to handle and use it under your eyes.

Hi MAC! That is a cool little tool, and comes in multiple needle lengths too. I may have to check that out!

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:00 pm

Beth:

You'll love it. I used it under my eyes, somebody (online review) used it on nasolabial line. I might try it next tim.

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:06 pm

I read this entire thread earlier, I must say first off, I think all of y'all are very brave!! But what I am not seeing much of is results posted, can anyone update? I did keliu getting thicker, but she thinks its the massage roller doing that, if I read it correctly!

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:30 pm

Tiny wrote:

I read this entire thread earlier, I must say first off, I think all of y'all are very brave!! But what I am not seeing much of is results posted, can anyone update? I did keliu getting thicker, but she thinks its the massage roller doing that, if I read it correctly!

I put down everything (which includes Retin-A, LED, Ultrasound etc etc) I do to contributing to boosting the thickness of my skin. But from all the clinical data out there, there is no doubt in my mind that dermarolling is one of the best things you can do in terms of anti-aging. Plus, there is nothing frightening about it. For some reason, thinking about it is worse than actually doing it!

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:32 pm

Keliu wrote:

Tiny wrote:

I read this entire thread earlier, I must say first off, I think all of y'all are very brave!! But what I am not seeing much of is results posted, can anyone update? I did keliu getting thicker, but she thinks its the massage roller doing that, if I read it correctly!

I put down everything (which includes Retin-A, LED, Ultrasound etc etc) I do to contributing to boosting the thickness of my skin. But from all the clinical data out there, there is no doubt in my mind that dermarolling is one of the best things you can do in terms of anti-aging. Plus, there is nothing frightening about it. For some reason, thinking about it is worse than actually doing it!

Thanks! I forgot to ask and its prob somewhere in here, but I am getting old, and well memories not the best, how long have you been doing this?

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:01 pm

Tiny wrote:

Thanks! I forgot to ask and its prob somewhere in here, but I am getting old, and well memories not the best, how long have you been doing this?

Since it was first mentioned on the Forum - so a good few years now.

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:49 pm

Tiny wrote:

I read this entire thread earlier, I must say first off, I think all of y'all are very brave!! But what I am not seeing much of is results posted, can anyone update? I did keliu getting thicker, but she thinks its the massage roller doing that, if I read it correctly!

Tiny, there are a lot of clinical studies with stats and pics at this thread...lip lines are addressed in some of them.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

I was personally able to eliminate my crowsfeet around my eyes via dermarolling, which frankly exceeded my wildest expectations. My only regret is that that I took 3 years off from rolling due to lack of time and fear of the pain!

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:42 pm

There is a chart in the guide which shows post treatment plan guidelines. For days 1-5 under clinical intervention it lists lymph drainage and photo modulation. The Dr. discusses LEDs in the guide and puts them at the top of his list of preferences for non-ablative treatments. So, I guess everyone who uses their LEDs after rolling has the right idea.

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:54 pm

Also, for disinfecting the roller after treatment he suggests using denture tablets. If I remember correctly someone said their roller was damaged doing this. I think they said they left the roller in the solution too long. He also says to soak the roller in Glutaraldehyde 2% after this. This is supposed to sterilize it. I have never heard of this before. I guess I will be sticking to alcohol. Is alcohol enough in order to properly disinfect rollers?

free skin care · Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:01 am

packratmack wrote:

Also, for disinfecting the roller after treatment he suggests using denture tablets. If I remember correctly someone said their roller was damaged doing this. I think they said they left the roller in the solution too long. He also says to soak the roller in Glutaraldehyde 2% after this. This is supposed to sterilize it. I have never heard of this before. I guess I will be sticking to alcohol. Is alcohol enough in order to properly disinfect rollers?

I saw that about the denture cleaner too packratmack and thought no I don't know about that?

I was wondering about using either Betadine or Hibiclens scrubs (and are they safe for the roller) and then Alcohol?

I wonder if emailing Sarah at owndoc would give me an answer or would she just say use what she sells? Confused

free skin care · Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:47 am

packratmack wrote:

The Dr. discusses LEDs in the guide and puts them at the top of his list of preferences for non-ablative treatments. So, I guess everyone who uses their LEDs after rolling has the right idea.

Wow!! That's so good to hear. I've always been inclined to do an LED treatment after rolling - and I have heard of clinics employing this strategy.

As far as sterilizing is concerned - I have to admit to not being too pedantic. I just use Rubbing Alcohol and let the roller air dry afterwards.

free skin care · Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:42 am

For sterilizing, I use milton tablets, I figure if their were good enuff for the babies bottles they would be good for my rollers.

I then rinse thr rollers in boiling water , then air dry then put them in their plastic tubes.
So far so good I havnt had any probs with them .

free skin care · Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:24 am

After a deep roll, I gently scrub any debris off my rollers with a clean, new, unused toothbrush while running hot water over them. After that I soak them in the disinfectant that Sarah sells on her site. I have also used the high strength alcohol previously.

I let them air dry over the rim of a cup and then store in their plastic cases.

Before a subsequent roll, I scrub my face and hands very thoroughly with a tea tree oil based scrub, rinse the rollers again under hot water, then start rolling.

Post roll, I wash my face and hands again very thoroughly with the TT scrub.

I have never had a problem.

I do plan to consider Dr. S's recommendations.
BFG

free skin care · Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:30 am

I hate to post just a thank you, but so many of you answered my concerns and questions that I do want to say thank you for taking the time to do so! I will keep reading all the threads and learning and watching!

free skin care · Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:16 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

After a deep roll, I gently scrub any debris off my rollers with a clean, new, unused toothbrush while running hot water over them.

I would be concerned about damaging the needles if I used a toothbrush. I'm glad it works for you though.

free skin care · Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:01 pm

packratmack wrote:

Also, for disinfecting the roller after treatment he suggests using denture tablets. If I remember correctly someone said their roller was damaged doing this. I think they said they left the roller in the solution too long. He also says to soak the roller in Glutaraldehyde 2% after this. This is supposed to sterilize it. I have never heard of this before. I guess I will be sticking to alcohol. Is alcohol enough in order to properly disinfect rollers?

I did denture tablets once and did NOT leave it long at all...cracked my roller head in multiple places.

I will actually not be reusing my rollers in the future....one use and they will hit the trash.

free skin care · Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:47 am

bethany wrote:

packratmack wrote:

Also, for disinfecting the roller after treatment he suggests using denture tablets. If I remember correctly someone said their roller was damaged doing this. I think they said they left the roller in the solution too long. He also says to soak the roller in Glutaraldehyde 2% after this. This is supposed to sterilize it. I have never heard of this before. I guess I will be sticking to alcohol. Is alcohol enough in order to properly disinfect rollers?

I did denture tablets once and did NOT leave it long at all...cracked my roller head in multiple places.

I will actually not be reusing my rollers in the future....one use and they will hit the trash.

Your picture shows you def do not have crows feet or lines that I can see at all! so whatever your doing, keep doing it! Can you buy disposable rollers?

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