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Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:51 pm  |
| EthelM wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| EthelM wrote: |
| (Edited to add: I am using C-Quence 4. I wanted to ramp up as much as possible prior to a big roll, so my lack of any serious or lasting redness with the .2mm is kind of surprising.) |
Holy cow....I can barely tolerate the C-Q3 and I have been using Environ since the end of May! |
 I know, Bethany! I was actually reluctant to order the C-Quence 4 after reading your posts about it, thinking it would be far too strong for me, but then I decided to bite the bullet and get it. I figured I'd use it every other day of it was too much for my skin, but I really wanted to load my skin as much as possible. So, this has been a pleasant surprise.
I really do have fair, sensitive skin, and in fact, one of the reasons I don't use Retin-A is because my face turns beet red and very irritated, and it stays that way. With the C-Quence and rolling, the redness is gone in a half hour. And, I do know my bottle of C-Quence is active (and not defective somehow) because when I first put the C-Q4 on, it does make my skin quite red...but the redness soon subsides, so it doesn't bother me. |
Jealous!! I am finally to the point that the redness has mostly dissipated with C-Q3 1x a day...but add in Nia24 and I look like a lobster! And I definitely agree on the Retin A....that is fire engine face for sure. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:18 am |
bethany and Barefootgirl , does Dr Setterfield mention dermaneedling in relation to treating cellulite?
Also, does the book contain a specific protocol for dermaneedling?
And does the Dr mention any automatic dermaneedling devices?
Thank you! |
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Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:18 pm |
Cellulite - I don't recall this, but will look tonight.
Protocol - Yes, including needle length, frequency and topicals.
Automatic devices - I don't think so, but will look tonight for you.
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
bethany and Barefootgirl , does Dr Setterfield mention dermaneedling in relation to treating cellulite?
Also, does the book contain a specific protocol for dermaneedling?
And does the Dr mention any automatic dermaneedling devices?
Thank you! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:21 pm |
I checked and saw nothing on cellulite.
He did briefly mention "advanced" needling tools, but only said that some vibrated and some had led's, but he thought the advances were dubious at best. I would say that he had not really considered the dermapen when writing this book.
| bethany wrote: |
Cellulite - I don't recall this, but will look tonight.
Protocol - Yes, including needle length, frequency and topicals.
Automatic devices - I don't think so, but will look tonight for you.
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
bethany and Barefootgirl , does Dr Setterfield mention dermaneedling in relation to treating cellulite?
Also, does the book contain a specific protocol for dermaneedling?
And does the Dr mention any automatic dermaneedling devices?
Thank you! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:36 am |
Thank you, bethany! In terms of topicals, does he give any specific recommendations?
Does he say anything about using Retin A after cosmetic dermarolling?
I wanted to buy a book but Amazon is out of it for now  |
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Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:59 am |
To me, I have found that the more blood the better as the result (my skin becomes plump, sunspots become less and skin is more radiant) is more pronounced vis-a-vis pinpoint bleeding.
However, to achieve bleeding, I have to roll very aggressively for a good 15 minutes for one cheek.
Sarah says that skin turning into red is enough.
May I know your experience and comment?
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/the-more-blood-the-better-when-dermarolling/msg361/#msg361
"......If your achieve inflammation (your skin temporarily becoming red after dermarolling), the process of skin renewal has been triggered......" |
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:21 pm |
This might sound crazy, but I have to voice it none the less, because I've though about it for several months..
... I was watching that whacky "Kardashian" show, and Kim was getting the "vampire facelift".. It looked like they were just 'rolling' her blood back in. Her face was smeared with it.
Have any of you tried to just roll your blood back in with the roller? (  )
So I have one year of irregular rolling under my belt (6 rolls with .05mm and about 25 product penetration rolls.)
My skin looks better; refined pores, thread veins gone + my neck rings are vastly improved.. Sadly, I've seen nada, zilch, nanda improvement in the sag department. My bone of contention is the jaw/chin/nl folds. I don't think this got worse, I just don't see any improvement.
As soon as I find the time, I'm going to purchase a 1mm roller, and give that a monthly go.
Hope all is well with everybody, and you're having great rolling success.
xox |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:35 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
This might sound crazy, but I have to voice it none the less, because I've though about it for several months..
... I was watching that whacky "Kardashian" show, and Kim was getting the "vampire facelift".. It looked like they were just 'rolling' her blood back in. Her face was smeared with it.
Have any of you tried to just roll your blood back in with the roller? ( ) |
Basically that's what happens when I use the 2 mm stamp, it bleeds quite a bit on first punch and then I sort of happen to push the blood back in with the needles with next punches. And it does look like Kim's session when I do the 2 mm stamp, sometimes even bloodier, when I'm not useing numbing cream. Then it just drips, lol!
I got into needling because of fine lines, pores, tiny scars and to increase firmness. It did nothing to fix any of that.
Pores and fine lines went away in weeks with an acid cocktail (nowadays I'm a firm believer in a low % mix of different acids, not one single active). To me acids are infinitely more effective in those specific areas compared to needling, plus there's no down time (with short needles I see *zero* change, apart from slight "inflammation glow", and with longer needles skin ir red, a bit bruised and peels for a couple days).
Couple of the smaller indented scars I have are a bit more filled out (not even sure if it's because of needling), but other than that - not really much success.
Sometimes I think that the before and after pictures from needling successes are due to vit. A and C (among other actives) in those products that part of the needling protocols, and not from punching the skin with steel. Just saying, because I've had great improvement with actives so far (have been using those for years) and pretty much none with addition of needling. So I quit needling Nov./Dec. last year after close to 3 years on/off needling. Not worth the hassle. |
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Do what all good pragmatists do. Compromise. |
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Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:01 pm |
@jazzi... What a brave soul you are with "2mm".. (My palms are sweating, just thinking about it..lol)
I'm a fan of acids also, and great topicals in general.
Thanks for sharing!
 |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:53 am |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
This might sound crazy, but I have to voice it none the less, because I've though about it for several months..
... I was watching that whacky "Kardashian" show, and Kim was getting the "vampire facelift".. It looked like they were just 'rolling' her blood back in. Her face was smeared with it.
Have any of you tried to just roll your blood back in with the roller? ( )
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The "Vampire facilift" or PRP is actually a technique where they take blood from another part of your body (usually the arm), put it in to a centrifuge machine to separate the blood plasma out, then take the plasma (which contains growth factors) and mix it with something else (which I've forgotten) and then they either inject it or roll it back in to the skin.
The most effective way of replicating this process at home is to simply roll in a good growth factor serum. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:00 pm |
I bought this book for $50 on eBay. Its a great introduction to needling all in one book and has specific protocols for pre-roll, post-roll and technique, including timelines.
@Keliu, I recall you posting about Osmosis StemFactor once. Is that a good serum to use post-roll? Have you ever used it that way? Thx. |
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✪ My go-to products: MyFawnie.BigCartel.com ✪ |
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Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:53 pm |
| fawnie wrote: |
@Keliu, I recall you posting about Osmosis StemFactor once. Is that a good serum to use post-roll? Have you ever used it that way? Thx. |
I only ever bought two bottles of StemFactor but did apply it after rolling. I went on to use Medik8 Growth Factor Youth Activating Serum. According to the blurb it's been especially formulated to use in conjunction with skin needling. I also think the Environ products developed by Dr. Fernandes would be a good bet. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:25 am |
| fawnie wrote: |
I bought this book for $50 on eBay. Its a great introduction to needling all in one book and has specific protocols for pre-roll, post-roll and technique, including timelines.
@Keliu, I recall you posting about Osmosis StemFactor once. Is that a good serum to use post-roll? Have you ever used it that way? Thx. |
Does the book mentions for how long the channels stay open?
And does Dr S suggest 0.2 mm roll everyday and 0.5 mm roll once a month?
Thanks! |
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:38 pm |
The book gets quite confusing as there are protocols for specific conditions that differ.
He states in one place that daily rolling with 0.2mm or 0.3mm for 3 weeks and then rolling with 0.5mm for the other 7 days per month is effective.
He states that if the 7 day 0.5mm rolling is not feasible then rolling with it once a week is a compromise.
Another protocol for lax skin is 0.3mm x 6 days per week and 0.5mm one day a week for 5 months.
A Concise Guide to Dermal Needling Lance Setterfield MD. |
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✪ My go-to products: MyFawnie.BigCartel.com ✪ |
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:17 pm |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
Does the book mentions for how long the channels stay open? |
Here is a study done for trans-dermal medicine delivery using a .35 and .75 roller. It has a chart using calcein imaging where you can actually see the holes in the skin over a certain period of time. It says the .35 roller holes are open up to 12 hrs. and the .75 up to 18 hrs. afterwards. It is done on rat skin and is a fairly long read but worth reading if you are interested.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160154/ |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:52 pm |
Even with the discount I still have to pay 70 CAD. And I am not even convinced that it is a worthwhile book! It sounds like there is not enough specific information, and a lot of confusing infprmation. For example, I want to know what products/ingredients I can use and what I'd better avoid using after a cosmetic roll. |
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:13 pm |
Wow, CookieD, this is a very valuable piece of information. I thought they close within minutes, but according to this study,
"The created microchannels... close within a few hours of microporation; the time frame being dependent on the length of microneedles."*
It also states that previous studies have shown that "application of a water vapor-impermeable plastic film or a solution has been shown to decrease the rate of skin healing in soluble microneedles treated skin which delayed pore closure for up to 72 h."*
That explains why applying a Lactic Acid peel 10 hours after a 0.2 mm roll stings like crazy!
*"Characterization of Microchannels Created by Metal Microneedles: Formation and Closure"
by Kalluri,Kolli, and Banga (2011)
| CookieD wrote: |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
Does the book mentions for how long the channels stay open? |
Here is a study done for trans-dermal medicine delivery using a .35 and .75 roller. It has a chart using calcein imaging where you can actually see the holes in the skin over a certain period of time. It says the .35 roller holes are open up to 12 hrs. and the .75 up to 18 hrs. afterwards. It is done on rat skin and is a fairly long read but worth reading if you are interested.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160154/ |
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Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:48 am |
RussianSunshine wrote:
| Quote: |
Wow, CookieD, this is a very valuable piece of information. I thought they close within minutes, but according to this study,
"The created microchannels... close within a few hours of microporation; the time frame being dependent on the length of microneedles."*
It also states that previous studies have shown that "application of a water vapor-impermeable plastic film or a solution has been shown to decrease the rate of skin healing in soluble microneedles treated skin which delayed pore closure for up to 72 h."*
That explains why applying a Lactic Acid peel 10 hours after a 0.2 mm roll stings like crazy!Embarassed
*"Characterization of Microchannels Created by Metal Microneedles: Formation and Closure"
by Kalluri,Kolli, and Banga (2011)
CookieD wrote:
| Quote: |
RussianSunshine wrote:
| Quote: |
| Does the book mentions for how long the channels stay open? |
Here is a study done for trans-dermal medicine delivery using a .35 and .75 roller. It has a chart using calcein imaging where you can actually see the holes in the skin over a certain period of time. It says the .35 roller holes are open up to 12 hrs. and the .75 up to 18 hrs. afterwards. It is done on rat skin and is a fairly long read but worth reading if you are interested.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160154/ |
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This is very interesting. I did a .5 roll about 1.5 weeks ago and my face stung from sweat and vitamin C for a couple of days afterwards. I wondered if I was just super-sensitive to needling but it looks like it's not so abnormal.
Does this mean we should not put oil-based actives or something like Infadolan on our faces afterwards? Only water-based stuff?
Good find, Cookie! You're a great researcher! |
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Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:50 am |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
Even with the discount I still have to pay 70 CAD. And I am not even convinced that it is a worthwhile book! It sounds like there is not enough specific information, and a lot of confusing infprmation. For example, I want to know what products/ingredients I can use and what I'd better avoid using after a cosmetic roll. |
Its your choice of course, but you ask a lot of questions that are answered in the book. 
Ingredients that he deems "musts" are listed. As well as a section on cellulite.
OwnDoc.com has her own protocols and her infos are free on her site.
Vaughter, Setterfield and others all do have conflicting infos. And then there are online studies that differ as well! I just read and form my own opinion. |
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✪ My go-to products: MyFawnie.BigCartel.com ✪ |
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Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:14 am |
fawnie, actually very few of my questions are answered in the book. First, he gives no specific recommendations about products that should or should not be used post-roll. Second, he does not mention automatic needle devices (the future of dermal needling).
$70 for an opportunity to form my own opinion? No, thanks.
Luckily some EDS members share their own opinions for free after reading literature that is not available for everyone. If you are not willing to be one of them, that's your choice. |
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Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:35 am |
The second edition of the book or his new book (not sure if will be new edition or entirely new) is in physical production now and scheduled for release sometime this summer (already overdue).
Will update the information from the prior book, so may be a good idea to hang on for latest research.
BFG |
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Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:38 am |
RS - I got the impression that fawnie was only trying to be helpful.
Remember - most information is worth what you pay for it 
I find it most helpful to ask and do my own digging.
BFG |
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Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:55 am |
[i]Sometimes I think that the before and after pictures from needling successes are due to vit. A and C (among other actives) in those products that part of the needling protocols, and not from punching the skin with steel.>
Recent research indicates that the needling is effective, but combined with the right topicals, even more effective. If I recall correctly, Des Fernandes was saying this along time ago.
BFG |
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Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:45 pm |
| I need to buy this book, I have a derma pen that I have used twice and my skin is so prickly after that I can't stand it. |
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47, former sunworshipper, skincare addict, oily T-zone, fair skinned, love Vita A, some hyperpigmentation, microneedler. |
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