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Thu May 24, 2012 3:35 pm  |
Q: How does a derma roller work (and does it really work?) Should you consider using one to upgrade your anti-aging skin care routine?
A: A dermal roller is device of which has, no surprise, a roller. The interesting element is that the roller is outfitted with dozens of what is often labeled “surgical-grade needles.” It actually looks like archaic and painful, kind of like torture devices from the Dark Ages. Rolling this device over your face as directed (usually three times per week) with a light pressure is said to literally create small holes in skin to allow ingredients to penetrate better. The other popular claim is that the wounding of skin and subsequent healing process is akin to dermatologic treatments of which use the same concept (think laser treatments.)
Does it work? Would a dermal roller replace or create results similar to laser treatments or boost your products benefits by allowing ingredients to penetrate deeper?
In a word, no, there is no research proving that dermal rollers produce results better than lasers or what’s possible from using a well-formulated skin-care routine (so no need to put tiny holes in your face.) The whole notion of skin-care ingredients needing to penetrate better is one of the most overblown claims we’ve seen lately.
With anti-aging products, gaining the benefit of your toners, moisturizers or serums is not about maximum penetration—because most ingredients like antioxidants, cell-communicating and skin-identical ingredients need to stay on the skin’s surface and within its uppermost layers to provide any benefit at all (including defense against free-radical damage.)
Moreover, it’s easy to overdo it with these devices, and that can create pathways in skin that allow ingredients (like sunscreen actives) to penetrate further than intended, potentially leading to a sensitized reaction.
Bottom line: dermal rollers are mostly about creating the next skin care industry gimmick, and they do truly hurt when used as directed! With the allure of “more = better” in terms of anti-aging, it’s too easy to overdo these types of tools and create real problems for your skin. This is one anti-aging skin care fad you can skip!
Well, well, well ...  |
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Thu May 24, 2012 4:40 pm |
| wow - has she seen some of the before and afters? |
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42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Thu May 24, 2012 7:52 pm |
| I don't read that as dismissing dermarollers as such I read that as dismissing misuse of rollers ('injecting' the wrong products or actives into the skin) and dismissing the exaggerated claims of some advertisers. Everyone here knows a single microneedling session is not akin to a laser treatment, results take time and patience. |
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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Thu May 24, 2012 8:43 pm |
| The research belies her statements...maybe someone should send her the clinical trails.. |
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If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Fri May 25, 2012 12:14 am |
| erg wrote: |
| wow - has she seen some of the before and afters? |
LOL. erg, I think we have learned that some of her advice/opinions are sound, and others must be taken with a huge grain of salt!  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Fri May 25, 2012 4:34 am |
Boy does she need to read that book that barefoot girl recommended "The Conscise guide to Derma needling"
And I have to say that nowhere in any of the sensible guidelines does anyone say more is better they all say less is more 
I do wish she would just stop pontificating when she obviously has done no real research as Dragon says all decent research papers do not agree with her.
Oh well off my soap box
Off to poke small holes in my face to put on actives
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46 got (PMD,Caci,QuasarMD,Tria , skin spatula) Using, environ , myfawnie serums, lacsal, retinol, GHk probably more but too embarrased to say |
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Fri May 25, 2012 7:12 am |
| DragoN wrote: |
| The research belies her statements...maybe someone should send her the clinical trails.. |
Could you list them here please? |
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Fri May 25, 2012 7:22 am |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| I don't read that as dismissing dermarollers as such I read that as dismissing misuse of rollers ('injecting' the wrong products or actives into the skin) and dismissing the exaggerated claims of some advertisers. Everyone here knows a single microneedling session is not akin to a laser treatment, results take time and patience. |
She clearly says that this is one fad one can skip because not only it is no better than a laser but also it is not better than a good skincare routine. Why would anyone cause so much discomfort to oneself if the results will be akin to a good skincare regime? Sounds like she totally dismisses it! |
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Fri May 25, 2012 7:26 am |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| I don't read that as dismissing dermarollers as such I read that as dismissing misuse of rollers ('injecting' the wrong products or actives into the skin) and dismissing the exaggerated claims of some advertisers. Everyone here knows a single microneedling session is not akin to a laser treatment, results take time and patience. |
She clearly says that this is one fad one can skip because not only it is no better than a laser but also it is not better than a good skincare routine. Why would anyone cause so much discomfort to oneself if the results will be akin to a good skincare regime? Sounds like she totally dismisses it! |
that is how I read it as well. |
_________________
42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Fri May 25, 2012 8:55 am |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
She clearly says that this is one fad one can skip because not only it is no better than a laser but also it is not better than a good skincare routine. Why would anyone cause so much discomfort to oneself if the results will be akin to a good skincare regime? Sounds like she totally dismisses it! |
IMO the justification is more telling than the headline statements. I agree with her justification, but I also believe that microneedling is highly effective if you are willing to stick with it over the long term and are careful about which products you apply. This article is written for 'every woman', not for the SCT/ EDS hardcore who thoroughly research their actives and are willing to DIY products. For 'every woman' who doesn't do that I actually agree they have no business microneedling. Nor should they be believing the adverts claiming amazing results from a single session.
"there is no research proving that dermal rollers produce results better than lasers or what’s possible from using a well-formulated skin-care routine (so no need to put tiny holes in your face.) The whole notion of skin-care ingredients needing to penetrate better is one of the most overblown claims we’ve seen lately ... Moreover, it’s easy to overdo it with these devices, and that can create pathways in skin that allow ingredients (like sunscreen actives) to penetrate further than intended, potentially leading to a sensitized reaction."[i] |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Fri May 25, 2012 10:01 am |
Firefox
I guess you have a very good and valid argument I think I am assuming that everyone who reads her articles are like us here, and that just may not be the case.
So for the uninformed perhaps it is one step too far,with no personal research done.
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46 got (PMD,Caci,QuasarMD,Tria , skin spatula) Using, environ , myfawnie serums, lacsal, retinol, GHk probably more but too embarrased to say |
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Fri May 25, 2012 10:26 am |
Firefox7275, yes, I see your point. She writes this article for a normal woman, not a skincare nerd!
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
IMO the justification is more telling than the headline statements. I agree with her justification, but I also believe that microneedling is highly effective if you are willing to stick with it over the long term and are careful about which products you apply. This article is written for 'every woman', not for the SCT/ EDS hardcore who thoroughly research their actives and are willing to DIY products. For 'every woman' who doesn't do that I actually agree they have no business microneedling. Nor should they be believing the adverts claiming amazing results from a single session.
"there is no research proving that dermal rollers produce results better than lasers or what’s possible from using a well-formulated skin-care routine (so no need to put tiny holes in your face.) The whole notion of skin-care ingredients needing to penetrate better is one of the most overblown claims we’ve seen lately ... Moreover, it’s easy to overdo it with these devices, and that can create pathways in skin that allow ingredients (like sunscreen actives) to penetrate further than intended, potentially leading to a sensitized reaction."[i] |
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Fri May 25, 2012 9:27 pm |
Oasisjc
http://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/2008/04000/Percutaneous_Collagen_Induction_Therapy__An.46.aspx
Percutaneous Collagen Induction Therapy: An Alternative Treatment for Scars, Wrinkles, and Skin Laxity
Abstract
Background: Skin laxity, rhytides, and photoaging are generally treated by ablative procedures that injure or destroy the epidermis and its basement membrane, at least in the beginning, and subsequently lead to fibrosis of the papillary dermis. The ideal treatment would be to preserve the epidermis and promote normal collagen and elastin formation in the dermis. Percutaneous collagen induction takes us closer to this ideal.
Methods: The authors performed a retrospective analysis of 480 patients in South Africa and Germany with fine wrinkles, lax skin, scarring, and stretch marks treated with percutaneous collagen induction using the Medical Roll-CIT to produce tighter, smoother skin. Most patients had only one treatment, but some have had as many as four treatments. Patients were prepared with topical vitamin A and C cosmetic creams for a minimum of 4 weeks preoperatively.
Results: On average, patients in Germany rated their improvement between 60 and 80 percent better than before the treatment. Histologic examination was carried out in 20 patients and showed a considerable increase in collagen and elastin deposition at 6 months postoperatively. The epidermis demonstrated 40 percent thickening of stratum spinosum and normal rete ridges at 1 year postoperatively.
Conclusions: Percutaneous collagen induction was started in 1997 and has proved to be a simple and fast method for safely treating wrinkles and scars. As opposed to ablative laser treatments, the epidermis remains intact and is not damaged. For this reason, the procedure can be repeated safely and is also suited to regions where laser treatments and deep peels cannot be performed.
Greater Collagen Deposition with the Microneedle Therapy System Than with Intense Pulsed Light
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.01882.x/full
Title: Micro Needling and Injecting Platelet Rich Plasma to Enhance Collagen Synthesis and Skin Tightening.
http://www.hairphil.com/downloads/prp.pdf[/url]
Percutaneous Collagen Induction: Minimally Invasive Skin Rejuvenation without Risk of Hyperpigmentation—Fact or Fiction?
http://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/2008/11000/Percutaneous_Collagen_Induction__Minimally.29.aspx
| Quote: |
| In a word, no, there is no research proving that dermal rollers produce results better than lasers or what’s possible from using a well-formulated skin-care routine (so no need to put tiny holes in your face.) The whole notion of skin-care ingredients needing to penetrate better is one of the most overblown claims we’ve seen lately. |
Spare me the sort of senseless crap. Same for the 'white tea extract' post roll. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sat May 26, 2012 11:24 am |
Paula B is not a credible source for skincare information.
Cosmetics? possibly.
BFG |
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Sat May 26, 2012 12:13 pm |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
This article is written for 'every woman', not for the SCT/ EDS hardcore who thoroughly research their actives and are willing to DIY products. For 'every woman' who doesn't do that I actually agree they have no business microneedling. |
I personally don't think DIY is necessary for microneedling. However, I did make sure to utilize professional, high quality products containing the actives recommended by the pros for pre and post roll, and had great success.
I am now prepping for my next roll with Environ products, and feel very confident that they will perform just as well (or better) than DIY created by most people. (SCT experts excluded, of course) |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat May 26, 2012 12:35 pm |
Bethany,
Would you mind letting us know which Environ products you plan to use and how you plan to use them in your rolling protocol?
FF,
I think cosmetic needling is intended for the average person and shouldn't be discouraged by so called professionals like Paula B...
Medical needling? another issue entirely.
BFG |
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Sat May 26, 2012 1:12 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Bethany,
Would you mind letting us know which Environ products you plan to use and how you plan to use them in your rolling protocol?
BFG |
I am following the protocol in one of Dr. F's articles:
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat May 26, 2012 1:50 pm |
From the article I linked to above...
| Quote: |
Research being done at Hanover University in Germany has shown that simple application of Environ® creams caused an up-regulation of growth factors in the skin in a similar pattern to needling. I like to keep patients
on Environ® for at least one to three months before doing the needling. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat May 26, 2012 10:26 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
I personally don't think DIY is necessary for microneedling. However, I did make sure to utilize professional, high quality products containing the actives recommended by the pros for pre and post roll, and had great success.
I am now prepping for my next roll with Environ products, and feel very confident that they will perform just as well (or better) than DIY created by most people. (SCT experts excluded, of course) |
You have misinterpreted what I said. The DIY comment was in respect of what we are not rolling into your skin with DIY than what actives we are rolling in. As someone with eczematous skin Paula's comment on "sensitized reactions" hits home for me! Not a comment on Environ as I am not familiar with their range ... It seems to me the vast majority of commercial products contain nasty preservatives/ colours/ emulsifiers/ fragrances/ man made oils OR a list of exotic plant extracts/ 'natural' allergens as long as your arm.  I have cringed at the ingredients lists of some products I have read of needled into their skin - thankfully the EDS hardcore are ingredients readers so I don't have to cringe too often. |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Sun May 27, 2012 3:07 am |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
I personally don't think DIY is necessary for microneedling. However, I did make sure to utilize professional, high quality products containing the actives recommended by the pros for pre and post roll, and had great success.
I am now prepping for my next roll with Environ products, and feel very confident that they will perform just as well (or better) than DIY created by most people. (SCT experts excluded, of course) |
You have misinterpreted what I said. The DIY comment was in respect of what we are not rolling into your skin with DIY than what actives we are rolling in. As someone with eczematous skin Paula's comment on "sensitized reactions" hits home for me! Not a comment on Environ as I am not familiar with their range ... It seems to me the vast majority of commercial products contain nasty preservatives/ colours/ emulsifiers/ fragrances/ man made oils OR a list of exotic plant extracts/ 'natural' allergens as long as your arm. I have cringed at the ingredients lists of some products I have read of needled into their skin - thankfully the EDS hardcore are ingredients readers so I don't have to cringe too often. |
My thoughts exactly Firefox. |
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Sun May 27, 2012 3:54 am |
So far, I haven't deep needled anything into my skin that I wouldn't also swallow via my mouth.
Of course that might change after a re-read of the Setterfield book.
BFG |
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Sun May 27, 2012 6:58 am |
While I like using Paula for cosmetic reviews, I don't always agree with her. I use some of her products and don't like others.
It seems she is addressing "product penetration" with regard to the dermarollers. There is too much anectdotal evidence to discount the dermaroller. I guess she doesn't want to advocate it and have novices rolling their faces because "Paula said so". |
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Sun May 27, 2012 8:52 am |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
I personally don't think DIY is necessary for microneedling. However, I did make sure to utilize professional, high quality products containing the actives recommended by the pros for pre and post roll, and had great success.
I am now prepping for my next roll with Environ products, and feel very confident that they will perform just as well (or better) than DIY created by most people. (SCT experts excluded, of course) |
You have misinterpreted what I said. The DIY comment was in respect of what we are not rolling into your skin with DIY than what actives we are rolling in. As someone with eczematous skin Paula's comment on "sensitized reactions" hits home for me! Not a comment on Environ as I am not familiar with their range ... It seems to me the vast majority of commercial products contain nasty preservatives/ colours/ emulsifiers/ fragrances/ man made oils OR a list of exotic plant extracts/ 'natural' allergens as long as your arm. I have cringed at the ingredients lists of some products I have read of needled into their skin - thankfully the EDS hardcore are ingredients readers so I don't have to cringe too often. |
I agree completely with the bolded part. However I stopped reading the EDS dermarolling thread years ago when I saw some of the crazy DIY stuff people were rolling into their skin, lol. But that obviously does not apply to everyone, thank goodness.
And I definitely agree that all purchased products should not be rolled in either...some things just aren't meant to fully breach the skin barrier! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun May 27, 2012 9:29 am |
| Quote: |
I agree completely with the bolded part. However I stopped reading the EDS dermarolling thread years ago when I saw some of the crazy DIY stuff people were rolling into their skin, lol. But that obviously does not apply to everyone, thank goodness.
And I definitely agree that all purchased products should not be rolled in either...some things just aren't meant to fully breach the skin barrier! |
Agreed. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:40 pm |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
| Firefox7275, yes, I see your point. She writes this article for a normal woman, not a skincare nerd! |
I don't necessarily agree with that. I would classify a "normal" or perhaps the word "average" person might be better, as someone who purchases skincare from a store and takes the advice of the sales assistant - and doesn't necessarily bother to read any articles or do any research on skincare whatsoever. The people who read Paula are probably more inclined to read forums like this one.
I think her opinion on dermarolling is misinformed. Considering this statement for instance:
| Quote: |
| Would a dermal roller replace or create results similar to laser treatments or boost your products benefits by allowing ingredients to penetrate deeper? |
No-one has ever claimed that the shorter needle lengths meant for product penetration will replicate the effects of a laser. The caparison to lasers comes with the longer length needles designed for CIT - for which there is a plethora of clinical studies. She pays no regard to the difference of product penetration rollers and CIT rollers - but just lumps them into one process.
I don't believe she's done her research on this one - to label dermarolling as a "fad" and a "industry gimmick" is extremely ill advised. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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