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Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:15 am  |
I'm going to make a DIY antioxidant spritz. However, the original recipe uses "ml/cc" measurements. But some of my ingredients will be dry. And I feel like grams would be more accurate. Since I'm new to DIY, I want to make sure I get it correct lol. But the problem is, the spritz is 8 ounces. How do I figure out the recipe if some ingredients are liquid and some are dry? I'm using a DIY formulating calculator (http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item.php?item_id=865&category_id=115) but obviously you can only choose ounces OR gram measurements to formulate the recipe. So my questions are:
Can I switch my recipe to grams for the dry ingredients even though it's a liquid? For example, change "8 ounces" to 227 grams (or 226.8 grams?) even though obviously ounces is a liquid measurement and grams are a dry ingredient measurement?
For example, if my recipe is 8 ounces, and I want 2% green tea extract, how would I figure out the correct amount to put in if the green tea extract is in powder form? (And the calculator is calculating in ounces because my recipe is for 8 ounces.)
I put in 8 ounces, then green tea extract at 2%. It tells me I'd need 0.160 oz of green tea extract. But the scale would only weigh in grams and the green tea extract is in powder form. So do I switch the recipe to 227 grams (or 226.8?) instead of 8 ounces? If I put in 226.8 grams and green tea extract at 2%, it tells me I would need 4.536 grams of green tea extract for my 8 ounce (or 226.8 gram) spritz.
Does that seem right or am I doing it wrong? I can figure out how much to use for the liquid ingredients, but I'm stuck on how to figure out the dry ingredients.  Thank you to anyone who can help me with this!!  |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:25 am |
No, you can't just change a recipe like that without additional information on concentration, weight, et cetera. If for instance you use a liquid green tea extract, it is diluted/dissolved in probably water, or propyle glycol, or a mixture of both, and to convert the recipe to dry ingredient you will have to know the concentration of the liquid used in the recipe, and the weight of the components....
Same goes for all the other ingredients. You could try and find out the concentrations of the stuff used in the recipe and adjust accordingly, either do the math - a lot of it if you want to convert liquid measure to weight- or dilute your dry stuff to meet the concentration used in the recipe and follow the recipe as is. |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:44 am |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
No, you can't just change a recipe like that without additional information on concentration, weight, et cetera. If for instance you use a liquid green tea extract, it is diluted/dissolved in probably water, or propyle glycol, or a mixture of both, and to convert the recipe to dry ingredient you will have to know the concentration of the liquid used in the recipe, and the weight of the components....
Same goes for all the other ingredients. You could try and find out the concentrations of the stuff used in the recipe and adjust accordingly, either do the math - a lot of it if you want to convert liquid measure to weight- or dilute your dry stuff to meet the concentration used in the recipe and follow the recipe as is. |
Thank you Lotusesther. Right but then if I dilute my dry ingredients to meet the concentration used in the recipe, (ie. 2 mls) how exactly can I be certain I am formulating it to the required percentages? I can't just throw a little bit of powder in water and then measure it as a millilitres. Surely that's not 100% accurate. I want to be certain I'm getting 2% green tea extract in my spritz, but it's in powder. What I'm trying to do is the math to convert the liquid to weight measurement. But I thought you just said that can't be done.
DM do you have any additional suggestions? How would you go about this? |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:44 am |
Having worked in both hospital pharmacy and research laboratories I agree with Lotusesther: 1g = 1ml for pure water only. The conversion is highly inaccurate for liquids of a different density and for powdered ingredients. Personally I would not use any recipe that has powdered ingredients in volume format, only by percentage or weight. Recipes using liquids by weight, volume or percentage can be accurately replicated.
There are many different qualities of green tea extract, liquid or powdered, with highly variable amounts of the active compound EGCG. Ideally purchase a standardised extract, and consider the manufacturers use rate. |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:48 am |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
Having worked in both hospital pharmacy and research laboratories I agree with Lotusesther: 1g = 1ml for pure water only. The conversion is highly inaccurate for liquids of a different density and for powdered ingredients. Personally I would not use any recipe that has powdered ingredients in volume format, only by percentage or weight. Recipes using liquids by weight, volume or percentage can be accurately replicated.
There are many different qualities of green tea extract, liquid or powdered, with highly variable amounts of the active compound EGCG. Ideally purchase a standardised extract, and consider the manufacturers use rate. |
Thank you Firefox. What I am basically trying to do is formulate my own recipe. This is why I'm asking. I'm aware of the EGCG content etc. I plan on purchasing a high quality green tea extract (not just something diluted that doesn't state the EGCG etc content.) I'm already aware of this. So if I'm making an 8 oz spritz, and want a 2% concentration (as is in the manufacturers usage guideline of 1-6%) then how do I figure out how much of the green tea extract powder to use. |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:50 am |
| egyptiangoddess wrote: |
I'm going to make a DIY antioxidant spritz. However, the original recipe uses "ml/cc" measurements. But some of my ingredients will be dry. And I feel like grams would be more accurate. Since I'm new to DIY, I want to make sure I get it correct lol. But the problem is, the spritz is 8 ounces. How do I figure out the recipe if some ingredients are liquid and some are dry? I'm using a DIY formulating calculator (http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item.php?item_id=865&category_id=115) but obviously you can only choose ounces OR gram measurements to formulate the recipe. So my questions are:
Can I switch my recipe to grams for the dry ingredients even though it's a liquid? For example, change "8 ounces" to 227 grams (or 226.8 grams?) even though obviously ounces is a liquid measurement and grams are a dry ingredient measurement?
For example, if my recipe is 8 ounces, and I want 2% green tea extract, how would I figure out the correct amount to put in if the green tea extract is in powder form? (And the calculator is calculating in ounces because my recipe is for 8 ounces.)
I put in 8 ounces, then green tea extract at 2%. It tells me I'd need 0.160 oz of green tea extract. But the scale would only weigh in grams and the green tea extract is in powder form. So do I switch the recipe to 227 grams (or 226.8?) instead of 8 ounces? If I put in 226.8 grams and green tea extract at 2%, it tells me I would need 4.536 grams of green tea extract for my 8 ounce (or 226.8 gram) spritz.
Does that seem right or am I doing it wrong? I can figure out how much to use for the liquid ingredients, but I'm stuck on how to figure out the dry ingredients. Thank you to anyone who can help me with this!! |
Is your powdered Green tea extract EGCG? example:
Product details
EGCG 90%
Assay: 93.92%% EGCG (epigallocatechin gallate)
Appearance: off-white to beige powder
Solubility: water, ethanol
Suggested percentage: 1% to 3%
http://www.bulkactives.com/teapolyphenols.htm |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:57 am |
Yes, I can only find a couple that seem worthy of purchasing.  So let's say I went with that one. And I want 2% green tea extract in my 8 oz spritz. How do I figure out the appropriate amount to use then? |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:10 am |
| egyptiangoddess wrote: |
| Yes, I can only find a couple that seem worthy of purchasing. So let's say I went with that one. And I want 2% green tea extract in my 8 oz spritz. How do I figure out the appropriate amount to use then? |
Using the calculator I posted and just inputting water at 98% and the GT at 2% it will show all in oz., lbs., ml, grams.
http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/Calculators/Batch_Size_Calculator.aspx
If you need conversions pm me and I will get back as soon as I can, I love my apps, and check both basically as a "double check" |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:18 am |
Thank you DM. It comes up with the same as what I calculated before. Using that calculator and putting in 236.6 ml as you suggested:
At 98% water and 2% green tea extract, the green tea extract would need to be:
0.16 ounces
0.0100 pounds
4.73 millilitres
4.54 grams
So wasn't what I said correct then? I originally calculated that I would require 4.536 grams (without rounding) of green tea extract to equal 2% in my 8 ounce spritz.
ETA: I just used the calculator again at 8 ounces, 98% water, 2% green tea extract, and got the same numbers. So to equate 2%, shouldn't I use 4.54 grams of green tea extract for 2% in my 8 oz spritz? |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:23 am |
| egyptiangoddess wrote: |
Thank you DM. It comes up with the same as what I calculated before. Using that calculator and putting in 236.6 ml as you suggested:
At 98% water and 2% green tea extract, the green tea extract would need to be:
0.16 ounces
0.0100 pounds
4.73 millilitres
4.54 grams
So wasn't what I said correct then? I originally calculated that I would require 4.536 grams (without rounding up) of green tea extract to equal 2% in my 8 ounce spritz. |
Yes I believe the confusion was thinking you were using a LIQUID GT extract which would be already diluted in either ethanol and glycerin, just ethanol, or glycerin with the ethanol evaporated off!
With any extract that is diluted you than need to figure the actual percentage of the ingredient of that extract! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:41 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| egyptiangoddess wrote: |
Thank you DM. It comes up with the same as what I calculated before. Using that calculator and putting in 236.6 ml as you suggested:
At 98% water and 2% green tea extract, the green tea extract would need to be:
0.16 ounces
0.0100 pounds
4.73 millilitres
4.54 grams
So wasn't what I said correct then? I originally calculated that I would require 4.536 grams (without rounding up) of green tea extract to equal 2% in my 8 ounce spritz. |
Yes I believe the confusion was thinking you were using a LIQUID GT extract which would be already diluted in either ethanol and glycerin, just ethanol, or glycerin with the ethanol evaporated off!
With any extract that is diluted you than need to figure the actual percentage of the ingredient of that extract! |
Thank you DM!!! You're fabulous!!!  That calculator is great, I'll be using that one from now on because not all ingredients are just grams or ounces. I don't know why people say formulating recipes is hard. It seems like a walk in the park to me. I can't wait to start formulating!  |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:46 am |
| egyptiangoddess wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| egyptiangoddess wrote: |
Thank you DM. It comes up with the same as what I calculated before. Using that calculator and putting in 236.6 ml as you suggested:
At 98% water and 2% green tea extract, the green tea extract would need to be:
0.16 ounces
0.0100 pounds
4.73 millilitres
4.54 grams
So wasn't what I said correct then? I originally calculated that I would require 4.536 grams (without rounding up) of green tea extract to equal 2% in my 8 ounce spritz. |
Yes I believe the confusion was thinking you were using a LIQUID GT extract which would be already diluted in either ethanol and glycerin, just ethanol, or glycerin with the ethanol evaporated off!
With any extract that is diluted you than need to figure the actual percentage of the ingredient of that extract! |
Thank you DM!!! You're fabulous!!! That calculator is great, I'll be using that one from now on because not all ingredients are just grams or ounces. I don't know why people say formulating recipes is hard. It seems like a walk in the park to me. I can't wait to start formulating! |
You are welcome EG,
That is my favorite one as well, I am not a huge math fan! 
I am serious if you need quick conversions just message me and I will be happy to help! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:43 am |
Thank you DM. I might have to take you up on that eventually The only portable device I have is my 3DS which I'm usually on! LOL. I can browse the forum on there but can't do much else!
Now I just have to take into account PH levels I suppose, and possible interactions between ingredients. Do you happen to know of any handy sort of chart out there with ingredient interactions in DIY? Or does such a thing not exist? I know CP and Vitamin C interact. |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:55 pm |
| egyptiangoddess wrote: |
Now I just have to take into account PH levels I suppose, and possible interactions between ingredients. Do you happen to know of any handy sort of chart out there with ingredient interactions in DIY? Or does such a thing not exist? I know CP and Vitamin C interact. |
It would really take scouting around and reading about each individual ingredient to see if it has contraindications with others. There are hundreds of ingredients and I have never seen a simple chart cross-indexing them for interactions, EG.
Formulating cosmetics with a variety of actives + emulsifiers/solvents/oils is painstaking work, not just figuring percentages and Shake&Bake. Start simple and do your homework and build from there. One place to start is to look for the pH requirements of each active ingred you are planning to use to see if its compatible with the others. Oils have no pH value so if you are just mixing EOs with oils its simple.
There are DIY forums that you can bounce your questions and ideas off too.  |
_________________
✪ My go-to products: MyFawnie.BigCartel.com ✪ |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:45 pm |
| egyptiangoddess wrote: |
Thank you DM. It comes up with the same as what I calculated before. Using that calculator and putting in 236.6 ml as you suggested:
At 98% water and 2% green tea extract, the green tea extract would need to be:
0.16 ounces
0.0100 pounds
4.73 millilitres
4.54 grams
So wasn't what I said correct then? I originally calculated that I would require 4.536 grams (without rounding) of green tea extract to equal 2% in my 8 ounce spritz.
ETA: I just used the calculator again at 8 ounces, 98% water, 2% green tea extract, and got the same numbers. So to equate 2%, shouldn't I use 4.54 grams of green tea extract for 2% in my 8 oz spritz? |
OK I am with you now! If you are making up your own recipe, stick with one lot of units - either metric (ml/g) or imperial (oz or fl oz). If you are being sold a powder and recommended a percentage the supplier should mean weight in volume (w/v or g/ml), if you are purchasing a liquid the recommended use rate should be volume in volume (v/v or ml/ml). Really correct practice is always to state w/v or v/v but this is often omitted. Instead of thinking of your finished quantity as 8 fl oz, think of it as 240ml and calculate percentages of that. 2% w/v would be 4.8g of green tea extract powder. If you can't easily measure 240ml with the equipment you have, switch to a finished volume you can measure, be that 200ml or 250ml, and calculate a percentage for that.
Sorry this does not agree with what you have already calculated, hope it does not confuse you more. |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:33 pm |
OK, You are rounding 8oz. to 240 ml. (200ml or 250ml).
The conversion of oz.to ml. is 8oz. = 236.58834 ml. so that would be throwing the calculations off also? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:40 pm |
| egyptiangoddess wrote: |
Thank you DM. I might have to take you up on that eventually The only portable device I have is my 3DS which I'm usually on! LOL. I can browse the forum on there but can't do much else!
Now I just have to take into account PH levels I suppose, and possible interactions between ingredients. Do you happen to know of any handy sort of chart out there with ingredient interactions in DIY? Or does such a thing not exist? I know CP and Vitamin C interact. |
To be safe when mixing acids like Vitamin C and minerals (plant extracts) which contain metals use a chelating agent One is EDTA, Citrus acid is also.
I know Kassy posted a list on the Green Tea, Acids, Vitamin C & Chelators DIY Discussion thread, it is only 7 pages!
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=36231
ETA: About that chart it would be great, my suggestion make your own on notes and mark by all your ingredients, pH, solubility, ect.
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:46 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
OK, You are rounding 8oz. to 240 ml. (200ml or 250ml).
The conversion of oz.to ml. is 8oz. = 236.58834 ml. so that would be throwing the calculations off also? |
I think you are speaking to me, apologies if not ... Yes that is correct I rounded up to make the maths easier. Nothing will be off because I proposed the percentage is calculated from the 240ml itself - 2% w/v of 240ml is 4.8g. If a different final volume is selected you would calculate from that, for example 2% w/v of 200ml is 4g green tea extract. |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:13 pm |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
OK, You are rounding 8oz. to 240 ml. (200ml or 250ml).
The conversion of oz.to ml. is 8oz. = 236.58834 ml. so that would be throwing the calculations off also? |
I think you are speaking to me, apologies if not ... Yes that is correct I rounded up to make the maths easier. Nothing will be off because I proposed the percentage is calculated from the 240ml itself - 2% w/v of 240ml is 4.8g. If a different final volume is selected you would calculate from that, for example 2% w/v of 200ml is 4g green tea extract. |
Just a preference to keep as close to the total volume as possible for me, I only round to the next highest or lowest whole number depending on the percent above or below .5%, so I would use 237 ml. in this case. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:23 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Just a preference to keep as close to the total volume as possible for me, I only round to the next highest or lowest whole number depending on the percent above or below .5%, so I would use 237 ml. in this case. |
I am confuzzled again. So how would you measure your final volume at 237ml, do you have some super accurate measuring cylinders? And/ or are you saying you would calculate 2% to be 4.74g then round down to 4.5g or up to 5g? |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:47 am |
After a lot of reading I am getting quite amused by this kind of hyper-calculation. The "optimum percentages" of actives are mostly derived from their activity in vitro, i.e. among unprotected cells without any stratum corneum to penetrate and other obstacles to navigate.
Concentrations of actives, unless proven irritants, are seldom critically high. The whole problem is, how to get them IN. Sitting on top of your stratum corneum, provided it's intact and you do not use anything to enhance penetration, a concentration of 0.4 % more or less isn't going to make any big difference IMO. |
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Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:08 am |
Thank you very much everyone!
fawnie, thank you. Yes I've started a notebook with much info already.
Firefox, thank you. No that doesn't confuse me. It's very simple. You calculate the required amounts of actives based on the total volume of your recipe and the suggested usage rate percentages. Whether it's 200 ml, 237 ml or 240 ml. I shall go with ml as DM orginally suggested. I'm not sure if there are measuring tools with that specific of ml measurements. I suppose I will just have to go with what I decide to at the time. I just wanted to make sure I was calculating the correct amount of actives properly because some would be dry and some liquid. But that calculator solves that issue! Thanks again DM.
Regarding what Lotusesther said, it is my understanding that this is the correct way to formulate, though I know many people do it differently. I do wonder what DragoN's opinion would be regarding that. Just out of curiousity. |
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Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:19 am |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Just a preference to keep as close to the total volume as possible for me, I only round to the next highest or lowest whole number depending on the percent above or below .5%, so I would use 237 ml. in this case. |
I am confuzzled again. So how would you measure your final volume at 237ml, do you have some super accurate measuring cylinders? And/ or are you saying you would calculate 2% to be 4.74g then round down to 4.5g or up to 5g? |
I am ONLY rounding the TOTAL volume and working form there by percentage.
I have cups and beakers that measure 230ml. then syringe to measure 7ml./cc. it is not hard at all.
I even have some from medicine dispensers from the pharmacy, and syringes for insulin and B-12. Most pharmacists here will sell or more likely give you them minus the needles.
Dry well you should know how accurate those .01g. scales are. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:40 pm |
| I thought that link to the batch size calculator would solve all my problems. But I put all the details in and everything came back as zero. Is anyone else having a problem or is it just me? |
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