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Use vitamin C & glycolics together

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denisiel
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Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:37 am      Reply with quote
The Dr. Bailey Skin Care Blog states that "vitamin C and glycolic acid can’t both be on the skin at the same time."

I use tretinoin nightly so that leaves only the daytime to use other acids.

I'm on Nu-Derm now but when I go into maintenance, plan to use Skinceuticals C & E followed by Glycolix 15% Cream in the AM on the non-Nu Derm days.

What do you think - can these be used at the same time?
Firefox7275
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Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:48 am      Reply with quote
Which form of vitamin C is Dr Bailey referring to? And what is the pH of the Glycolix cream? L-ascorbic acid is pH specific for best absorption. Many people employ wait times after cleansing and again before applying their moisturiser. Plus overusing acids can have a detrimental effect, it can damage the skin's barrier function, be photosensitising and contribute to low grade inflammation which is ageing.

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denisiel
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Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:51 am      Reply with quote
Hi Firefox,

See http://www.drbaileyskincare.com/blog/whats-the-best-anti-oxidant-skin-care-product/

Firefox7275 wrote:
Which form of vitamin C is Dr Bailey referring to?


Dr Bailey refers to CRS, which has L-Ascorbic Acid and is ph 3.

I plan to use Skinceuticals C & E Ferulic, which is ph 3.

Firefox7275 wrote:
And what is the pH of the Glycolix cream?

According to the site, the Glycolix Elite Facial Cream 15% has a ph under 4. I just read on another site that it has vitamin C in the cream, hmmmm..

I noticed that Dr. Bailey's recommended regimes use vitamin C in the AM and glycolics in the PM.

In contrast, Dr. Neal Schultz recommends glycolics AM and antioxidants PM.

Need to use tretinoin daily and even there it is confusing. Dr. Schultz (who doesn't like tretinoin) says to use it AM but most other doctors say to use in the PM because the drug breaks down with light exposure.

I would like to use tretinoin for anti-aging and pigmentation problems, glycolics for exfoliation, and antioxidants for preventative purposes.

Do you think it is too much to apply Skinceuticals C & E Ferulic, wait 20 minutes and then apply Glycolix Elite Facial Cream 15%, wait 20 minutes and then apply sunscreen in the AM?

Thanks!
LoriA
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Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:10 am      Reply with quote
Yikes! Never heard daytime use of tretinoin being recommended. I certainly wouldn't.

I thought everything was going well using all my products until my skin suddenly started peeling. since then I've been doing everything I can not to layer, & have been rotating, and trying to use only 1 product a night, & even skipping a night. My skin has been a LOT happier.

It all seems too complicated to figure out, so rather than try, I'm just using stuff less often, which is fine by me. I don't think I'm missing out and like giving my skin a chance to catch a breath. Even though the products have been helping in various ways, it just seems like its doing better now not being constantly under seige!

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Olive, normal/oily skin. Using rinse-off ocm, Vit C, Tretinoin since Nov/10, GHK since Feb/12, Niacinamide & glucosamine, alternating, & now skipping nights! Concerns include oiliness, hyperpigmentation from occasional zits, 11's & nasolabial folds.
denisiel
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Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:27 am      Reply with quote
Hi LoriA,

Know what you mean about peeling and backing off.

For most of my life I have been babying my skin and not rubbing in products and exfoliating hardly ever because I started using Sage Skin Care decades ago. They believe in treating your skin as if it was like touching a butterfly's wing. They did use very strong AHAs that ripped my face off and so I became wary of any strong product. So mostly used Shiseido and Skinceuticals the past few years.

Fast forward to today and now I am trying a new tact of following Dr. Obagi's theory that the skin must be constantly stimulated and actives applied at all times.

My skin is is decent shape but now I see some melasma, more dry areas and some fine lines. Serums and moisturizers didn't really help much so now I am testing the Obagi theory that moisturizers are not good for the skin. So far I've been on Nu Derm for 9 weeks and have stripped layers off. My skin is still peeling and red but seems much firmer and that the melasma has faded. However, maybe my face is just so irritated and swollen that really there is little improvement and the redness is covering up the brown areas. I'll find out in another 9 weeks which theory works.
Firefox7275
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Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:32 am      Reply with quote
denisiel wrote:
Hi Firefox,

See http://www.drbaileyskincare.com/blog/whats-the-best-anti-oxidant-skin-care-product/

Firefox7275 wrote:
Which form of vitamin C is Dr Bailey referring to?


Dr Bailey refers to CRS, which has L-Ascorbic Acid and is ph 3.

I plan to use Skinceuticals C & E Ferulic, which is ph 3.

Firefox7275 wrote:
And what is the pH of the Glycolix cream?

According to the site, the Glycolix Elite Facial Cream 15% has a ph under 4. I just read on another site that it has vitamin C in the cream, hmmmm..

I noticed that Dr. Bailey's recommended regimes use vitamin C in the AM and glycolics in the PM.

In contrast, Dr. Neal Schultz recommends glycolics AM and antioxidants PM.

Need to use tretinoin daily and even there it is confusing. Dr. Schultz (who doesn't like tretinoin) says to use it AM but most other doctors say to use in the PM because the drug breaks down with light exposure.

I would like to use tretinoin for anti-aging and pigmentation problems, glycolics for exfoliation, and antioxidants for preventative purposes.

Do you think it is too much to apply Skinceuticals C & E Ferulic, wait 20 minutes and then apply Glycolix Elite Facial Cream 15%, wait 20 minutes and then apply sunscreen in the AM?

Thanks!


Everyone's skin is different, a few will tolerate three irritants in one day but many of us can't even tolerate one of those. My concern is always that much irritation and inflammation is invisible. Have you considered using a form of vitamin C that is still highly active in the skin but doesn't need the acidic pH that L-AA does? You might consider AA2G or MAP (magnesium ascorbyl phosphate), these forms are also more stable than L-AA. Vitamin C is also beneficial in hyperpigmentation and collagen induction, it is not simply an antioxidant. Another option is a gentler but still effective alternative to Retin-A such as retinol or retinaldehyde. Some people alternate R-A one day and vitamin C the next. If you prefer to employ the wait method, you may also need wait time between your cleanser and the CE ferulic.

Do you really need daily glycolic if you only want it for exfoliation? L-AA at pH 3 will exfoliate, or you could do a light weekly lactic acid peel, or use a microfibre/ cotton muslin cloth with your cleanser. As LoriA intimates less can often be more, many people report 'happier', healthier and more hydrated skin when they scale back exfoliation and deep cleansing. Obagi is very aggressive, your skin might be glad of a breather with just gentle anti-inflammatories and antioxidants instead of keeping up the intense pressure? Gentler really does not have to equal ineffective, plenty of research proving that. I don't know what is in Sage products, but if they are unproven extracts or at sub-therapeutic percentages then that is more the issue that how aggressive or gentle you have been.

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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim.
Firefox7275
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Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:04 am      Reply with quote
"Cell renewal gradually falls off during the first 10 weeks of treatment with 3% glycolic or lactic acid at pH 3, decreasing to 29.3% and 28.3%, respectively. When applied regularly, lactic and glycolic acids (at 3%, pH 3) lose a significant percentage of their capacity to destroy corneocytes and renew the epidermis around the 12th week."
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-115/Lactic-acid-88-pct--/Detail.bok

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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim.
LoriA
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Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:56 pm      Reply with quote
Wow denisiel, that's quite the skincare journey! Funny their recommending being so gentle while throwing acid on your delicate butterfly wings, lol! But at least you didn't compound the issue by rubbing acids deeper into your skin, so in my mind, as long as you've used sunscreen, you've probably done fairly well.

I'm not familiar with all these skincare systems, and just throw in things I've learned from those who I consider to be experts here on eds, and adjust as I see fit. We're all unique in how we respond, after all. And moderation in everything is key.

I've come to believe in a balance between helping the skin along with a few actives & treats, a little manipulation and perhaps some chemical & manual exfoliation (if it's even necessary after the actives & massage), while ALLOWING the skin to live and breath on its own. Keeping to a strict regimen while not responding to my skin's subtle reactions until there's some kind of dramatic turn is no longer for me. This is where what Firefox has written re her "concern.. that much irritation and inflammation is invisible" hit home.
Don't want to wake up again saying "oops"!

Good luck with everything!

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Olive, normal/oily skin. Using rinse-off ocm, Vit C, Tretinoin since Nov/10, GHK since Feb/12, Niacinamide & glucosamine, alternating, & now skipping nights! Concerns include oiliness, hyperpigmentation from occasional zits, 11's & nasolabial folds.
denisiel
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Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:30 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks for the info Firefox! So it seems there is no strict rule against using the two together (like there is, for example, with tretinoin and glycolics) but it is better not to do so for irritation reasons.

Thanks for the good wishes LoriA!
tinali0202
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Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:49 pm      Reply with quote
denisiel wrote:
The Dr. Bailey Skin Care Blog states that "vitamin C and glycolic acid can’t both be on the skin at the same time."

I use tretinoin nightly so that leaves only the daytime to use other acids.

I'm on Nu-Derm now but when I go into maintenance, plan to use Skinceuticals C & E followed by Glycolix 15% Cream in the AM on the non-Nu Derm days.

What do you think - can these be used at the same time?



some firends told me this as well. but i am using is clinical serum now ,they all have vc and glycolic acid . and i did see anything bad now.well ,should be ok i think
denisiel
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Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:14 am      Reply with quote
As mentioned above, Dr. Bailey advises to never mix glycolics and vitamin c products. Tonight I read that Dr. Leslie Baumann advises, "Do not mix glycolic or salicylic acid with hydroquinone, retinol or vitamin C. Acid breaks down these ingredients and renders them useless." See http://www.skintypesolutions.com/component/article/index.php?option=com_article&view=article&id=56

I am uncertain what to do now. On Obagi Nu Derm, I was told to apply Vitamin C serum (wait 15 minutes) and then apply Clear, which is hydroquinone.

Plus I just bought a Glycolix Elite 15% cream which has vitamin C. I was told I could apply that after the Vitamin C Serum on non-Nu Derm days.

Do you think the doctors specifically mean mixing is not suitable but layering is OK? In Nu Derm, you layer the Exfoderm Forte (glycolic) right over the Clear (hydroquinone)with hardly any wait time. And you are supposed to vigorously rub the products in, which I would assume will mix the products together when layering in this manner. I tend to believe Nu Derm because this line is one of the most successful.

So who is right - the doctors or the skincare product companies?
DarkMoon
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Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:59 am      Reply with quote
denisiel wrote:
As mentioned above, Dr. Bailey advises to never mix glycolics and vitamin c products. Tonight I read that Dr. Leslie Baumann advises, "Do not mix glycolic or salicylic acid with hydroquinone, retinol or vitamin C. Acid breaks down these ingredients and renders them useless." See http://www.skintypesolutions.com/component/article/index.php?option=com_article&view=article&id=56

I am uncertain what to do now. On Obagi Nu Derm, I was told to apply Vitamin C serum (wait 15 minutes) and then apply Clear, which is hydroquinone.

Plus I just bought a Glycolix Elite 15% cream which has vitamin C. I was told I could apply that after the Vitamin C Serum on non-Nu Derm days.

Do you think the doctors specifically mean mixing is not suitable but layering is OK? In Nu Derm, you layer the Exfoderm Forte (glycolic) right over the Clear (hydroquinone)with hardly any wait time. And you are supposed to vigorously rub the products in, which I would assume will mix the products together when layering in this manner. I tend to believe Nu Derm because this line is one of the most successful.

So who is right - the doctors or the skincare product companies?


I am not using any at the moment (glycolic) but I have used an LAA serum with a wait time and then a Glycolic cream without any issues!

Firefox is correct we all have different skin so it depends on what yours tolerates. JMHO Smile

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denisiel
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Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:22 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks DarkMoon. But I see the issue as more than a matter of individual tolerance. Dr. Baumann states a physical reason that "Acid breaks down these ingredients and renders them useless." That would mean only the glycolics would be fully effective and any hydroquinone, retinol or vitamin C would be less effective or even useless.

We all spend a lot of time and money on these products so I want to make sure to get the full benefit.

I googled and searched the board but there only seems to be one liner comments like those from Drs. Bailey & Baumann with no studies or protocol backing the statements up. I think the members of board are so knowledgeable and fact based that I can trust them much more than a derm site selling products.
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Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:20 am      Reply with quote
Denisiel the link you supply is ambiguous. Dr Baumann refers to mixing glycolic or salicylic acid with those other actives, not using products containing the two ingredients. He also doesn't state which form of vitamin C he is referring to. There is a huge difference between concentrated glycolic acid and a weak, buffered glycolic cream. A difference between mixing and layering with an appropriate wait time to allow for absorption. And a difference between the stable/ effective pHs of MAP and L-AA.

"Some beauty ingredients don't work in combination with others or lose their effectiveness when exposed to heat, air or moisture. To get the most out of your products, follow these six beauty-boosting tips ...
Do not mix glycolic or salicylic acid with hydroquinone, retinol or vitamin C. Acid breaks down these ingredients and renders them useless.
"

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denisiel
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Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:04 pm      Reply with quote
That's my point of this thread - dermatologists make broad statements not to use glycolics and vitamin C at the same time.

Sort of like saying oil and water don't mix - it doesn't matter about the specifics whether it is mineral, distilled or tap water or olive, canola or peanut oil - the rule is that these don't mix.

I am not talking about a subjective measure like individual tolerance of products.

What I am wondering if anyone has scientific evidence whether glycolics and vitamin C can be used together or if in doing so, one or both are rendered less or completely ineffective. Isn't it possible that people don't have adverse reactions to layering or mixing these actives because the C has actually been made useless?

For example, you can't really tell if your vitamin C is helping against free radicals. So if you are mixing or layering it with a glycolic product and the glycolic is negatively affecting the efficacy of the vitamin C, then there is no reason to apply the vitamin C. Even if you apply the C and wait 20 minutes, then apply a glycolic cream and it absorbs into the skin, does it affect the C?

I am NOT talking about combination actives in one product. I am referring to first applying vitamin C serum, waiting 20 minutes, applying hydroquinone, waiting, and then a glycolic cream. This is to address pigmentation issues.

The derms did not state the form of vitamin C. But their sites do recommend LAA serums such as Skinceuticals C & E Ferulic so I assume they are referring to at least LAA if not other forms of C.
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Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:37 am      Reply with quote
The reason given was the acidity of the glycolic would inactivate the L-AA. The potential irritation of each is because they are both acidic so the effect is cumulative, one acid cannot cancel another out. Basic chemistry and subjective tolerance cannot be taken out of the equation.

I do understand you were not talking about combinations. But it's possible the dermatologist was, going by the specific working of the sentences. The problem here is we are analysing someone else's words. Maybe contact the dermatologist in question and ask him for evidence to back up his claim? If not, research the stable pH and absorption time of each active on Google Scholar and PubMed and reputable ingredient supplier websites.

Sorry if that sounds dismissive, it is not intended to, I think it's great you are questioning such sweeping statements. Embarassed But what you are asking is a huge question so the answers will be found spread over multiple papers, or in one several hundred dollar dermatology textbook. And unfortunately most of the 'mad scientists' don't post here anymore.

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