indented/pitted acne scars
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skin Care and Makeup Forum

free skin care · Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:18 am

newusernew wrote:

No offense, I did a thorough research on scar reduction and copper peptides on this forum and came across many posts by foxe. She seems to be too knowledgeable and passionate to be a real user/customer. There's a lot of scientific terms in her posts, she explains from theory point of view most of the times, rather than from own experience. She seems to know many products from skin biology and know the details/ingredients the science behind every one of them, including products for anti-aging and scar reduction. I just had a hard time believing a real user would post over 1000 posts about douzens of SB's copper peptides products

I do not have over a 1000 posts on CPs alone (I do fall prey to the ‘lemming’ syndrome fellow EDSers have and purchase many other products talked about here) – I just may not participate in those other posts as often since I tend to be a little bit of a lurker. I will share my knowledge about CPs SINCE that is something I am passionate about and know a lot about. I have gained my knowledge about CPs from reading ALL that Dr Pickart has shared on his website and in reading all of his posts on his forum for the last 4 or 5 years. There is not another skin care company that does what SB does in regards to having scientific papers written on their products (and there are a lot) and then providing them to users on their website and answering questions on their forum. It helps immensely in learning about the product (if one is so inclined). I myself had done a lot of research on CPs before taking the plunge, so it was probably a few months of reading up on them before I purchased them.

Quote:

I could be wrong, but she doesn't sound like she's just a satisfied user.

you haven’t read many of my posts to come to this conclusion. I do tell many people about CPs because I am a very satisfied user.

Quote:

i researched the forum for copper peptides and saw many posts by foxe, most about the science, theory about sb copper peptides, with frequent reference to details in research papers. sorry she sounds like a scientist, not a real user.

How did you research this??
Hit my profile button and read all the posts I have made before you come to this conclusion. Apparently you’ve only read a few threads that I’ve participated in before reaching this decision

free skin care · Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:19 am

Posting to this thread is a waste of time. There are thousands of posts all over this forum from "unbiased" users having both positive and negative results. New user is obviously in a state of mind where she's blind to them and to any constructive suggestions.

Your experience has been bad and as a result you're painting everything & everyone with the same brush. Good luck with that, its going to be a tough road for you. No, you're not supposed to trust everybody, but it MIGHT be in your favor to trust someone! Maybe someone who's shown compassion for your plight (& ceaseless doubting remarks) and is still patient enough to respond?

I feel badly for all these amazing people's efforts and good intentions being disrespected and wasted on someone who's committed to being of the group who don't and won't see results.

I certainly don't feel like contributing my experiences here to help you. My recommendation is to skim the other threads started by people who interact with a less suspicious and better disposition and keep your mouth shut.

Wow, how often do I get to lose my pleasin' personality be THIs nasty on eds? Bad Grin

free skin care · Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:23 am

newusernew wrote:

I never said you're biased, I only said that about Foxe, because:

1. She posted over thousand posts about cp

I have been a member of EDS for over 5 years and out of my ‘thousands’ of posts, I have participated in a multitude of various threads that are NOT about CPs (Retin A, L2K, VitC, SS, KP, AA, etc, etc…). I may have offered my opinions on CPs to many people because I do have a fair amount of knowledge about them. I have been using them for over 4 years and in that time (and through the generous sample program offered by Skin Bio) I have tried almost all of the various different CP products offered by SB. I can have an opinion on them due to that and many have found it helpful to hear what I have to offer on them. That is what this forum is for – sharing our experience and helping others.

Quote:

2. Very few of them are about personal experience, most are the science behind cp products, details in research papers

most of the ‘science’ I post about are quotes from Dr Pickart of Skin Biology. I find it easier to just share his knowledge than try to explain his discovery since I do NOT have a science background. Many here on EDS are very accustomed to reading scientific papers as they are presented for many products and those explanations can help many understand how products work and help them in how they choose to use skin care products. Perhaps you could attempt to read a few of them yourself to understand how to correct your scars. If you did so, you would understand that building collagen is essential in filling in your scars.

Quote:

3. She raved about every cp products, dozens of them. Most people who have real experience with cp would talk about how cp changed their skin, not about the science, the history of cp invention, details about the Dr. and his research, etc

once you have been a member of the EDS community for a little while longer, you might understand why presenting science, history and details is important to many members here, along with anecdotal evidence and user experience.

free skin care · Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:25 am

LoriA - great post. I totally agree with you.

Firefox - thanks for covering my back.

free skin care · Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:41 am

Yeah, this kind of thing is a distraction from the subject of skincare.

New user is spending her time and energy doubting and being suspicous of people's motives instead of on the task at hand. And we're entertaining this behaviour!

Users of (all your) calibre, who've obviously long since proven yourselves should not be made to feel like you need to defend.

Its good that we've learned from it though.
We all deserve better than this!

free skin care · Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:17 pm

Okay, bringing this back to the topic, I too am a SB fan. I incorporated a dermaroller and retin A, and eliminated 90% of the acne scars on my face in six months, as well as chicken pox scars I've had for 20 years. I have written in several other places on this forum about my success, and foxe was one of the people that pointed me in this direction with her posts. The science supplied gave me the information I needed to make an informed decision, and whether I wanted to take a risk as this treatment takes time. Let me remind you that THERE ARE NO QUICK FIXES!!!

free skin care · Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:52 pm

thanks for the info. I'd think it's quick if it can be fixed in six months.

if i dont use roller and replace it with acid, will i get similar result?

im using retin-a, super cop 2x (i want to treat scars asap so dont want to waste time on lighter products.) i do aha or bha at least once per week, and extra peeling every other day on scars. when i see skin too dry, i use c serum. i know not to use c serum and cp at the same time.

were your scars deep to begin with? i bought obagi 0.05%

free skin care · Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:37 pm

Not sure, I do not use acids other then retin-a. I use .1%. Dermarollers are pretty aggressive, you are taking a roll of needles and smashing it across your skin.

Some of my scars were deeper than others, the really deep boxcar ones are still there, but improved. Most were only noticable when the light hits it, not glaringly obvious to people that meet me, but it looked choppy in certain lights.

I have a keloid scar on my chin, did absolutely nothing for that one.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:36 am

Thank you Ava for the information. So your scars are still there but less noticeable? Are you still dermarolling?

Treatments like fraxel and dermarolling cause micro-swelling and scars look more filled-in with the swelling. I had 8 fraxel treatment, every time right after the treatment, my scars looked much improved because of the swelling. Two months after the treatment when the swelling subsided, scars went back to how they looked like before.

My scars look slightly differently everyday, some days they look much better but then a few days later they look exactly same as before.

The only thing that gave me niticeable result is neostrata's 10% AHA lotion. One scar on nose is reduce by half after applying neostrata 10& AHA lotion, but afer that, that scar stopped improving/responding.

AHA peel also gave me a new scar. No sure if it's new scar, I had scar there before then it healed and filled in many years ago, but after using AHA peel, I noticed a bigger/deeper scar there, bigger than when I started the peel, not sure if it's bigger than many years ago.

CP inventory claimed long term cp use could removed scars, but I found some cp users who used cp to reduce scars for 5 years with no result. Scars looked better sometimes then reverted.

I've been using super cop 2x for 10 days, I noticed blackheads, I can tolerate that if super cop help my scars, so far, no difference noticed. The day before yesterday, I applied retin-a 45 mins before super cop at night and my face peeled a lot yesterday so I'll stop treatment for a couple days.

I peeled a lot with retin-a and AHA but scars can always find their way back to my face, it's amazing.

I want to know feedback from long time user cause these treatments are irritating, cause blackheads, redness, peeling and I think too much irritation ages skin faster. If it's not gonna work, I dont want to damage my skin further.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:53 am

You have misunderstood what is meant by peels in the content of scarring. Daily or weekly use of AHAs are for exfoliating of the stratus corneum only, they do not damage the living tissue sufficiently to change the scar's structure. Depending on the pH AHAs will also cause increased hydration and/ or low grade inflammation so plump out the tissue giving temporary results. There are tolerance issues with daily use of AHAs. As I said earlier for pitted scarring you need to do a series of proper peels with TCA or similar.

There are many threads on conservative versus aggressive use of copper peptides, the so called 'uglies' from overuse. Have you read these?

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:32 am

thank you for coming back to give me advice Firefox. im well aware of the uglies as i spend hours research the topic everyday now.

the "new" scar was before cp, so i don't blame cp for tuat.

i have a 65% aha peel from NB, an expensive brand. the peel costed me 200. it's not irritating, i can leave it on for hours.

i also have 30% bha, 65% latic acid from muac. those i can leave on for no more than 5 mins or itll burn. i bouggt tca 12.5 and 15 from muac too, didn't use them yet. will it help if i do tca peels or only tca cross help? im too afraid of using tca as there's risk for new scars.

i also use neostrata 10% aha daily wheb my skin is not too irritated. aha 10% improved the scar on my nose permanently, it's been a while and the scar never went back to original shape.. but i dont see aha 10% improved other scars or that same scar further.

so im trying to use more acid, retin a, cp when my face is not too irritated, or peeling too much. when i peel too much, i stop for a couple days.

oh irritation is not always uglies. for example, people experience peeling and redness even a few years after using retin a.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:56 am

AHA (lactic, glycolic) and BHA (salicylic) do not penetrate deep enough to change pitted scarring, the sort of peel required is indeed higher risk for infection or further scarring and is painful. AHAs and BHAs are cheap as chips and can be diluted at home, you are being ripped off if you are being charged $200.

AFAIK TCA cross is not innately safer than TCA, it's the depth of peel which is the main risk factor, how even you get the peel and how long the wound takes to close. Hence we are suggesting dermarolling which is very low risk. I wish we could conjure up a method of controlled destruction of tissue that ticks all your boxes but it simply does not exist.

You were the one mentioning irritation and I certainly did not equate it with the CP 'uglies'. I have a working understanding of irritation/ inflammation in respect of Retin-A and other acids, thank you.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:03 am

thank you for coming back to give me advice Firefox. im well aware of the uglies as i spend hours research the topic everyday now.

the "new" scar was before cp, so i don't blame cp for tuat.

i have a 65% aha peel from NB, an expensive brand. the peel costed me 200. it's not irritating, i can leave it on for hours.

i also have 30% bha, 65% latic acid from muac. those i can leave on for no more than 5 mins or itll burn. i bouggt tca 12.5 and 15 from muac too, didn't use them yet. will it help if i do tca peels or only tca cross help? im too afraid of using tca as there's risk for new scars.

i also use neostrata 10% aha daily wheb my skin is not too irritated. aha 10% improved the scar on my nose permanently, it's been a while and the scar never went back to original shape.. but i dont see aha 10% improved other scars or that same scar further.

so im trying to use more acid, retin a, cp when my face is not too irritated, or peeling too much. when i peel too much, i stop for a couple days.

oh irritation is not always uglies. for example, people experience peeling and redness even a few years after using retin a.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:13 am

hi Firefox, where can i buy the numbing cream you mentioned? wheres the best place to buy single needle? i think single needles can be used in more controlled way tyan roller. what's the point of needling good skin. I'll try tca on big indented scars.

that aha peel is from natural bliss, it has other benefits, it madey skin softer. neostrata aha did improve the scar on my scar, but just that one scar and just to certain extend, can't explain why

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:35 am

Perhaps the scar you mention was in the collagen remodelling stage from a previous intervention Many here on EDS use OwnDoc - they sell anaesthetic cream, single needles, dermastamps and three line rollers all of which are very controllable.
http://shop.owndoc.com/
They also have sound, free advice
http://owndoc.com/category/dermarolling/
http://owndoc.com/support/

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:53 am

thanks a lot for your help Firefox.

may i ask what kind of improvement i can expect from this kind of treatment in 6 months?

the indented scars on my nose really bothers me. derm said it's harder to treat scars on nose as skin on nose is different from skin on other part of face.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:16 am

As I have already said, collagen remodelling is six month plus so do not expect any results within that time frame. You are only destroying a small percentage of the scar tissue in each session: this is what makes dermarolling safer, but also means you need to do multiple treatments. Results vary with genetics and age, diet and lifestyle, the rest of the skincare routine, the number of treatments performed and how aggressive you are with needling each time. Bethany has posted a number of excellent refererences on the main dermarolling thread on the DIY board, you might find some useful stuff on the dermarolling stretch marks thread. Might be worth checking to see if others have addressed acne or chicken pox scars on the nose? Also guidance on results on OwnDoc and Ray's diary on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/user/raysdermaroller

If it were me, I'd probably needle some areas and spot TCA peel others. With needling it can be handy to have more that one gadget to hit different areas of the face.

Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:15 am

thank you firefox for your advice. I'll check out those sites. I feel I'm searching for solutions all the time and I keep ordering stuff from Internet but never got the results I want.

I was was patient with fraxel, I started from over a year ago, had 8 treatments. Last time I went to the laser clinic, they tried to sell me makeup and concealers.......

My main concern is when I dont see improvement, I don't know if I'm in the process of skin remodeling or just nothing is happening.

About neostrata aha 10% lotion, I'm pretty sure it worked on that scar. One night I applied it on nose, I sw that scar changed shape in a few hours. I can actually tell it changed shape after I applied the lotion. Of course it changed back a little, but I feel there's tiny improvement each time I use neostrata aha 10% on it, now it's only half its original size.

I also have neostrata bionic serum, didn't see any benefit of that yet.

I'll receive my obagi 0.05 retin-a soon and I'll try to include that in my regin too.

I saw from time to time people post on forums saying their big dent disappeared over time. I wish I could be that lucky one day.

the $200 65% aha peel is from natural bliss, it's a well known brand. although it's 65%, I dont feel the irritation even if I leave it on for hours. And I don't peel like crazy from using it. It makes skin look softer and smoother.

I also ordered cellex-c super c serum, haven't used it yet. Hope that will help a little too.

On muac site, there's a before and after pics on the scar reduction section. The patient's skin is full of dents in the "before" pic and flawless in the "after" pic. I wonder if it really achievable with peels.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:43 am

NewUser,

Tretinoin (Retin-A) and some exfoliating topicals can actually make the indented scars look worse, as they thin the top layers of skin. As that happens, the scars appear wider. There are many, many reports of this happening, so I'd steer you away from those topicals in this instance.

I've also read many unhappy reports from CP users, so use caution there as well. Lasers and deep peels can also make the scars appear wider, as indented scars are quite deep and it's almost impossible to remove enough of the upper layer of skin to erase the indented scars without ending up looking like a burn victim. Most likely the scars will end up seeming more obvious, not better. Peels can also make skin texture shinier, and that can emphasis the scars when light hits the face, causing shadowing.

In order to address atrophic/indented scars, you do indeed need to break up existing scar tissue first and then spur the body to replace that scar tissue with healthy normal tissue. One of the best methods is to use needling. If you are too bothered by needling yourself, then go to a doctor to have it done with anesthetic. Many dermatologists and cosmetic surgeons offer needling as an acne scar treatment.

To optimize the results from needling, you should use both Vitamin A and Vitamin C topically for at least a month prior to the needling treatment, so your skin has adequate stores of these collagen-boosting actives at the ready post-needling. It has been suggested that the best form of Vitamin A is retintyl palmitate, and not the irritating tretinoin, and either MAP or tetra forms of C, rather than the acidic L-Ascorbic. You can buy a premade topical which contains both ingredients, or make your own topical with both ingredients (see the DIY forum).

One of the most successful methods of treating indented scarring, in my experience, is Dr. Des Fernandes' protocol (see the Environ website for photos, articles, etc.) Needling (also known as PCI/CIT) is supported by many published medical research studies, which you can find on PubMed. I would pursue this method if I were you.

Lasers have had just mediocre results, and topicals have had even less success. HOWEVER, nothing whatsoever will repair your scars quickly, not a deep peel, not a laser, not needling, and this is because in order to repair an indented scar you need to incite new tissue growth, which obviously takes time, since cells undergo a life cycle. You should however, see considerable improvement within six months and you can have the needling treatment repeated thereafter for even more improvement, if need be. Plus, needling is inexpensive in an MD's office, as compared to lasers.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:31 am

As I said I don't know enough about Fraxel to comment, but the combination of lifestyle, products and techniques is critical. AHAs are super cheap, for $200 you might as well buy AnteAGE. Changing in a few hours from a 10% lotion is simply hydration and/ or irritation IMO. The burning or irritation (and activity) will depend on whether the acid is buffered or not/ the pH of the finished product.

"Cell renewal gradually falls off during the first 10 weeks of treatment with 3% glycolic or lactic acid at pH 3, decreasing to 29.3% and 28.3%, respectively. When applied regularly, lactic and glycolic acids (at 3%, pH 3) lose a significant percentage of their capacity to destroy corneocytes and renew the epidermis around the 12th week. Salicylic acid (a beta-hydroxy acid), on the other hand, retains its ability to destroy corneocytes much longer. At a concentration of 50 to 70%, lactic acid produces the same amount of exfoliation as glycolic acid. As early as 1974, it had been shown that lactic acid improved skin hydration and suppleness and that a pH of 3 was more effective than a pH of 5. Lactic acid is also a better hydrator than urea or glycerol. Some studies tend to show that 3 weeks of daily application of 12% lactic acid would allow as much collagen to be deposited in the papillary dermis as applying 25% trichloroacetic acid (TCA) or phenol.

Lactic acid, stimulates ceramide biosynthesis leading to higher SC ceramide levels that result in a superior lipid barrier and more effective resistance against dry skin problems. Long term repetition of AHA peels shows a gradual improvement in the quality and tone of the skin, which becomes softer and more even in tone, as well as partial correction of the appearance of fine lines."
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-115/Lactic-acid-88-pct--/Detail.bok

Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:59 am

of the above mentioned methods, needling/rolling is the only thing i didn't try. nothing I've tried gave a real improvement. many people reported needling/rolling doesn't work or gives more damage.

this is desperating i guess there's no really effective ways to reduce scars, otherwise there won't be so many people on forums asking what's the next treatment to try and nobody would have scars on their face.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:07 pm

I think, on many acne forums, there are alot of kids who self-perform treatments such as needling without adequate research on how the procedure is properly done, and hence they worsen their problems. I think you should discuss needling with a medical doctor (cosmetic dermatologist) who has experience in treating atrophic acne scarring with needling. Look at the photos on the Environ site and on the Dermalconcepts site (US site for Environ), as well, and read the research studies on PubMed.

Needling works but indeed acne scarring is difficult to treat. Still, I believe needling is the best method of treating atrophic scarring.

If you want another option, true icepick scars (but not boxcar scars or rolling scars) can be excised in a dermatologist's office with anesthetic. That is the fastest method of repair available.

Boxcar scars do not excise well but can be temporarily filled with Restylane, which lasts about 6 months, on average, and does a great job at hiding the scarring. That is the fastest method of addressing boxcar scars.

Rolling scars usually do not respond well to fillers and cannot be excised, so needling is a better option for rolling scars. Needling will improve all three kinds of scars, however.

Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:54 pm

i just spent $200 on super cop 2x and retin a thinking it's my best bet now. you're telling me this won't work?:'(

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:02 pm

jojojo wrote:

i just spent $200 on super cop 2x and retin a thinking it's my best bet now. you're telling me this won't work?:'(

In my opinion, the CPs won't work and no, the tretinoin will not work to repair indented scars. Most dermatologists will confirm that tretinoin will not help atrophic scars.

NEEDLING is your best option. Get it done by a cosmetic dermatologist. What part of that has been unclear??!! Sheesh!
Rolling Eyes

Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:39 pm

some people said retin-a/aha make skin thicker/stronger over long term use

why do you think cp wont work? have you used it personally?

thanks

Automatic Message

If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.

Click Here to join our community.

If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site.