indented/pitted acne scars
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free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:21 pm

jojojo wrote:

some people said retin-a/aha make skin thicker/stronger over long term use

why do you think cp wont work? have you used it personally?

thanks

Very good question jojojo.

I have personally had great results using CPs on acne scars - mostly icepick types. And I've gotten the fastest results combining it with needling - single needles mostly.

When most people have complained of 'uglies' with CPs - it is usually from overuse and for firming or wrinkles, not for spot treating with acne scars.

CPs have been proven to work in rebuilding the collagen and elastin in skin and in healing wounds fast. What causes it to work in these instances is what explains how it can fill in acne scars. newuser - if you were to read some of the studies provided on CPS on the Skin Bio site, you would understand why they are the perfect companion to needling in treating scar tissue. CPs will prevent the tissue from reverting back to its original state and cause it to rebuild without scar tissue. Needling with Vit C and Vit A is also good for building collagen, but for scar tissue - CPs are just the right mix. They are not a fast fix, though and that is why patience is needed. You also have to give your skin time between needling sessions to do its remodeling job. To speed up the process (needle more often than recommended)would be detrimental to the collagen building (scar filling) process.

free skin care · Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:22 pm

jojojo wrote:

i just spent $200 on super cop 2x and retin a thinking it's my best bet now. you're telling me this won't work?:'(

jojojo - what did you buy the SC2X for specifically?

Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:33 pm

im on owndoc website, they have cp product too, not from skin biology. i already have sb super cop 2x, do i need to buy cp from owndoc too? i wonder if the cp on owndoc site works better than sb.

Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:55 pm

i use it for box scar, pitted scars

is cp on owndoc better than cp from skin biology? i have super cop 2x, i think ill buy single needles from owndoc

my deepest scars are 1.5 mm deep

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:31 am

I want to thank foxe and Firefox for your help.

I ordered EMLA from owndoc, they are out of single needles. On owndoc site, it says sb cp is fake/second generation cp and doesn't work. So although i have sb super cop 2x, I still ordered the cp serum from owndoc.

I started to roll two indented scars with mts dermaroller I bought last year. Cant remember the length of the needle, either 0.3 or 0.5. I saw ver little blood when I rolled. I'll experiment with the two big indented scars on nose first. The two scars are 1.5mm deep. Foxe/Firefox is it better to roll aggressively once every month or roll slightly every few days? owndoc site said their cp is real, sb second generation cp is fake, is it true?

i bought so many tools creams and serums, I can open my own skin care shop now, although my skin still sucks.

I also used baby quasar before, it worked at treating active acne, but did nothing on scars.

my main concern is not ice picks, but the indented scar on nose, they're the shape of half of a green bean.

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:59 am

hi foxe, may I ask how deep were your ice picks and how long did them take to fill in? are they lighter now ot totally gone? what exact products did you use?

owndoc is out of single needles, would it work the same if I use sewing needles and be careful not to go too deep?

thanks for your help

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:40 am

newusernew wrote:

hi foxe, may I ask how deep were your ice picks and how long did them take to fill in? are they lighter now ot totally gone? what exact products did you use?

owndoc is out of single needles, would it work the same if I use sewing needles and be careful not to go too deep?

thanks for your help

NO!!! Do not use sewing needles!

You have been given GREAT advice here.. please slow down take the time to read what others have posted and make a plan.

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:20 am

Newusernew: please read the guidance on the OwnDoc site and the main dermarolling thread, it explains how often you should dermaroll depending how long the needles are. All the needles are a maximum of 0.25mm thick, which is similar to an acupuncture needle but nothing like a sewing needle.

The copper peptides comment links through to two threads on the OwnDoc forums, did you read Sarah's explanations? Once you are an OwnDoc customer you are welcome to use their forum, it would be worth asking Sarah Vaughter herself to clarify anything you don't understand about her CP posts.

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:10 am

jojojo wrote:

im on owndoc website, they have cp product too, not from skin biology. i already have sb super cop 2x, do i need to buy cp from owndoc too? i wonder if the cp on owndoc site works better than sb.

The CP product offered by owndoc has the GHK CP in it, which is a very good CP, but not as strong as the 2nd generation of CPs offered by Skin Biology (and others, like EDS here). The SC2X that SB has is the strongest CP they have and is a very good one for scar treatment /spot treatments. The GHK CP is the one that has all the studies on it, and that might be why Sara feels it is the ‘real’ one and not the 2nd gen ones. No matter what she says, using either is fine with rolling for scar treatment – but the SC2X *might* get you to your goal faster since it was designed for scar treatment in the first place. I do like some of the other ingredients in the mask owndoc sells, and the GHK as a mask would be very soothing (though I’ve never tried it, so this is JMO)

Quote:

i use it for box scar, pitted scars

is cp on owndoc better than cp from skin biology? i have super cop 2x, i think ill buy single needles from owndoc

my deepest scars are 1.5 mm deep

I purchase all my CPs from Skin Bio as I feel the man who invented them has the ‘best ones’ available. JMO
If the single needles are out of stock like newuser mentioned, then try the dermastamp. If your scars are that deep, go for the deepest needle. The single needles are actually around 2mm deep and that is a very good length for scar treatment in order to break up the scar tissue, so get some if you can.
One note on treating acne scars – I noticed when needling mine that they did not hurt at all initially as the scar tissue did not have any nerve endings in it. It also felt very ‘tough’ and I had a hard time getting the needle to penetrate as there was resistance. As the skin healed and filled in, I started to feel some pain and the resistance eased up a bit. This meant to me, that the nerve endings were returning to the area as normal/non-scar tissue was filling in the area.

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:21 am

newusernew wrote:

hi foxe, may I ask how deep were your ice picks and how long did them take to fill in? are they lighter now ot totally gone? what exact products did you use?

owndoc is out of single needles, would it work the same if I use sewing needles and be careful not to go too deep?

thanks for your help

I am not sure how deep they were, but the single needle (that is 2mm in length) went in pretty far, so they were probably around 1.5

I actually dislike needling, so I don't do it as often as recommended. I used the longest needles and the recommended interval for that is 6 weeks between treatments. I have done quite a few treatments over the last few years, but not on a regular basis. They have filled in probably around 75% - maybe more on a couple of scars? Around 99% on some others. I always applied a CP product after needling and also used them on a daily basis between treatments. I have used SC2X on a spot basis and the regular CP serum and the newer Skin Signals. I have seen the best results using SC2X, but that one did cause some irritation locally (the spot itched and tingled). And this is somewhat surprising from a regular user of CPs. That goes to show you that opening up channels with needling does let the product absorb much better. And what better way to get a product that is so good for scar treatment like CPs to get down deep and let it do its job of remodeling the skin than needling!!

If you read some of the threads on the Skin Bio forum, a few users there have had fantastic results with severe acne scars (mine are not bad) and you could get some good ideas from their protocol. I believe 'Max' is a frequent poster that offers great advice and you could learn a lot from just reading his posts. You may not need to do much more than that.

Oh - and no need to be afraid of the single needle going too deep - there is a built in stopper on it at 2mm.

Quote:

Foxe/Firefox is it better to roll aggressively once every month or roll slightly every few days? owndoc site said their cp is real, sb second generation cp is fake, is it true?

Not true that the 2nd gens are fake - heavens, the man who discovered the 1st gen developed the 2nd gen. He did that because the 1st gen broke down (is fragile) when exposed to certain things, acids being one of them. He developed the 2nd gen CPs to be breakdown resistant and they are much stronger than the 1st gen CPs. Very good to use them in scar treatment. But, also good to use the 1st gen ones. If you have both, try using both at different times and see for yourself how they do.

I believe that using the longer needles on scar tissue and using them only every 4-6 weeks is the best. You do need to read the threads Firefox mentioned to get more educated.

Edited to add: Oh - if you couldn't get your hand on the single needles - you could try the dermastamp. That might be better for larger scars anyway.

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:09 am

thank you foxe for you replies. i doubt anybody who used rollers personally would like the experience. i rolled with my mts dermaroller yesterday, the roller cost me $150+tax, it's either 0.3 or 0.5mm. my nose looks like beehive today.

sb site says cp and acid together would work great. if i go on sb or owndoc site forums, they both say they have the best product and their products are far better than the others. i have both now, I'll use one am and the other one at night.

i feel sad nothing can remove scars 100%

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:14 am

If I am understanding correctly Sarah Vaughter is using the word fake to mean they are not actually copper peptides as a single compound. According a post on the OwnDoc forum

"This is what Dr. Loren Pickart said via email:
"1. Gly-His-Lys (GHK) is the FGCP. It is in human blood and has been extensively studied. GHK has a huge number of positive action but is very sensitive to enzyme breakdown. The SGCPs are made from breakdown resistant copper peptides (peptide hydrolyzates) of various proteins and are stronger than GHK."

NOTE: FGCP stand for first generation copper peptide

In another email with Cassia, a wonderful and insightful lady that works for the doc. She is the best, super duper helpful.

I was able to speak with Dr. Pickart regarding your question on if second generation copper-peptides (which use hydrolyzed soy protein and copper chloride) breakdown or convert into GHK-Cu. He said no, they do not. They are two separate compounds. However 2nd generation products, which are stronger and more stable than GHK, act very similar to GHK-Cu in the effects that they are able to generate in the skin. They imitate what GHK does for the skin with a more potent effect."
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/copper-peptides

Whilst I admit to knowing a limited amount about copper peptides, I do know hydrolysed protein is a very different beast from peptides which have a specific string of amino acids. If the hydrolysed protein and copper are not combining, I can't really see the point in purchasing a pricey, branded product until research is published on the second generation. But perhaps I am missing something?

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:01 pm

Firefox - Dr P has said that it is hard to get studies done on the 2nd gen CPs mainly because the 1st gen ones (that everyone seems to be doing studies on) is found in the body naturally and they seem to like to do the studies for that. Also, funding studies is expensive and his co. is a small shop, so no funding.

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:18 pm

hi foxe,

did cp make your skin dry? my skin is very dry lately, i don't know if acid or retin-a or cp caused it. i want to use cp as often as i can take it.

did you use any acid with cp? any preference? i bought acid from muac, they are strong and irritating, i feel they will last forever

thank you for sharing your experience

free skin care · Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:15 pm

If your acid is an alcohol based one, that would be drying. I really like the Lactic acid based one from Skin Bio (Lactic Power 10, I believe?) It's actually kinda moisturizing. With my oily skin, I wouldn't think I'd like it, but it does well for me. It's gentle enough to leave on without rinsing off on a daily basis. Some of the alcohol based ones need to be rinsed off because of possible irritation. They tend to be low pH and might be 'stronger' than the ones SB sells, but you might need to test each out to see how they are.

CPs don't tend to make my skin dry at all.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:16 am

thank you foxe for your help. ill keep on trying cp/acid/needling. it's hard to keep on going without seeing changes, but this seems to be my best option now.

firefox: I'd like you opinion here please. while reading sb site, it's frequently mentioned that scar tissues can be moved to surface with prolonged use of cp. do you think it's possible? can scar tissue in deeper layer of skin actually be pushed uout by cp or any topicals? it sounds too good to be true

does scar tissue move in different layers of skin when healing?

many thanks

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:53 am

Others know far more about CPs than I do. But yes I believe it is possible, increased turnover of skin can certainly push sun damage to the surface so why not scar tissue too? Obagi harnesses that (example only, NOT recommending it). However the key is ensuring the new dermis/ epidermis has normal collagen deposition, it is not replaced by the same abnormal tissue. IMO that is down to a combination of how you break down the old tissue and how you build up the new tissue. Obagi works on topicals alone but is horribly aggressive and still very much utilises the healing cascade.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:07 am

i just bought obaji 0.5, im too afraid to use it though. i scar so easily, after dermarolling the day before yesterday, the line shaped scar on my nose got extended. a tiny bit of previously good skin join the scar and made it longer.

i hate aggressive treatments, i can get new scars from that overnight, and it takes forever for the new scars to go away.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:59 am

Dermarolling should not scar unless you have a abnormal healing which your dermatologist would hopefully have identified. Scarring is normally associated with wounds which don't close quickly, whereas the channels in dermarolling are super fine and close within an hour or so. Are you softening the skin beforehand so you don't need to use much pressure, then lifting the roller and repositioning after every pass? http://dermaroller.owndoc.com/dermaroller-instructions.pdf

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:11 am

i did lift the roller so tue needles dont always get t the same spots.

i had two small pits close to each other before, had an aggressive fraxel restore, that removed the good skin between the two pits and form a line. the two pits join together.

it seems when needles get to the end of tue line, if the good skin is damaged too much in rolling, the line could extend, meaning more scar tissues formed and joij the line to make it bigger

free skin care · Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:32 pm

I don't know anything about dermarolling or needling, so I hopped over to owndoc. Wow, that looks painful and scary. The site even says it hurts. How much does it hurt and is there a lot of blood? TIA

free skin care · Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:47 am

I find it confusingwhen people say dermarolling can break down scar tissues and won't damage good skin. How can dermaroller selectively break down only the scar tissue, not the normal tissue?

free skin care · Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:12 am

newusernew wrote:

I find it confusing when people say dermarolling can break down scar tissues and won't damage good skin. How can dermaroller selectively break down only the scar tissue, not the normal tissue?

Dermarolling puts pinprick holes in healthy skin and scar tissue alike. With such small wounds healthy skin will repair as healthy skin, scar tissue can be 'persuaded' to repair as healthy/ normal skin.

free skin care · Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:16 am

thank you firefox. Sometimes when using acid, the border of the scar turn white and stay white for a couple days. Would you know what that is? Do you think poking the scar with toothpick will help breaking down the scar tissue?

thanks

free skin care · Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:39 pm

newusernew wrote:

thank you firefox. Sometimes when using acid, the border of the scar turn white and stay white for a couple days. Would you know what that is? Do you think poking the scar with toothpick will help breaking down the scar tissue?

thanks

Frosting? For toothpick see sewing needle.

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