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Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:29 pm  |
Here are a couple of excerpts from an article Dr F wrote that show the importance of the blood in the wound healing process:
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PCI results from the natural response to wounding of the skin, even though the wound is minute and mainly subcutaneous. A single needle prick through the skin would cause an invisible response. It is necessary to understand that when the needle penetrates into the skin, this injury, minute as it might seem, causes some localized damage and bleeding by rupturing fine blood vessels. Platelets are automatically released and the normal process of inflammation commences, even though the wound is miniscule. A completely different picture emerges when thousands or tens of thousands of fine pricks are placed close to each other and one gets a field effect, because the bleeding is virtually confluent. This promotes the normal post-traumatic release of growth factors and infiltration of fibroblasts. This reaction is automatic and produces a surge of activity that inevitably leads to the fibroblasts being “instructed” to produce more collagen and elastin. The collagen is laid down in the upper dermis just below the basal layer of the epidermis (Fig. 12).
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Phase I: initial injury
The inflammation phase starts when the needles prick the skin and rupture blood vessels and blood cells and serum gets into the surrounding tissue (Fig. 13). Platelets are important in causing clotting and releasing chemotactic factors, which cause an invasion of other platelets, leucocytes, and fibroblasts. The leucocytes, particularly neutrophils, then act on the damaged tissue to remove debris and kill bacteria. After the platelets have been activated by exposure to thrombin and collagen, they release numerous cytokines. This process involves a complex concatenation of numerous factors that are important in (1) controlling the formation of a clot (eg, fibrinogen, fibronectin, von Willebrand factor, thrombospondin, ADP, and thromboxane); (2) increasing vascular permeability, which then allows the neutrophils to pass through the vessel walls and enter the damaged area; (3) attracting neutrophils and monocytes; and (4) recruiting fibroblasts into the wounded area.
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Initially after PCI, the disruption of the blood vessels causes a moderate amount of hypoxia. The low oxygen tension stimulates the fibroblast to produce more TGF-β, platelet-derived growth factor, and endothelial growth factor. Procollagen mRNA also is upregulated, but this cannot cause collagen formation because oxygen is required (which only occurs when re-vascularization occurs). Collagen type III is the dominant form of collagen in the early wound-healing phase and becomes maximal 5 to 7 days after injury. The longer the initial phase, the greater the production of collagen type III.
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Check the article for the very bloody pic of a woman being rolled.
http://collageninductiontherapy.com/images/stories/BellaDerma/minimally_invasive_percutaneous_collagen_induction.pdf |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:13 am |
Hi bethany, Do you prefer the MY-M over a regular roller? Did you use the same type of pattern as you would with a roller?
I would be concerned over the lack of bleeding too. Do you think it has anything to do with the different type of movement or pressure of the instrument that is used? The roller seems a lot more brutal than using the pen. Maybe the pressure of moving a roller over the face somehow causes more blood to surface? Although, you did say you bled a lot with a stamp. Do you think you penetrated your skin more deeply with the stamp than the pen? I really would have thought since you are a bleeder, you would have gotten the same results with the pen. Maybe we can come up with an answer for the difference. |
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Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:18 am |
| packratmack wrote: |
I would be concerned over the lack of bleeding too. Do you think it has anything to do with the different type of movement or pressure of the instrument that is used? The roller seems a lot more brutal than using the pen. Maybe the pressure of moving a roller over the face somehow causes more blood to surface? Although, you did say you bled a lot with a stamp. Do you think you penetrated your skin more deeply with the stamp than the pen? I really would have thought since you are a bleeder, you would have gotten the same results with the pen. Maybe we can come up with an answer for the difference. |
Hi packratmack, I think you may be on to something with the pressure comment. Think about when you pop a pimple. You squeeze it junk comes out and you squeeze some more and blood comes out. Same thing if you have a cut and you put pressure on the area around the cut. More blood will come out but if there isn't that pressure it might not bleed much if at all. That doesn't mean that the cut/pimple is not there. Just that it bleeds more with pressure on the surrounding area.
I think the rolling action of the drum of the dermaroller is causing more blood to the surface of the skin then the Dermapen. I don't know what kind of Dermastamp people are using. There are large rectangle types and small round circle types. I used the round circle type (about the head size of a dime) and didn't really bleed with that. I would think there isn't any pressure on the surrounding areas when using this type of Dermastamp.
If this premise holds true. I guess the question would be does the blood have to come to the surface of the skin to make a difference. I would think not because the micro tear/damage is still happening under the skin. If there is any bruising/swelling the next day I would think this is evidence of that.
The link that Bethany included does talk some about damage under the skin.
even though the wound is minute and mainly subcutaneous
when the needles prick the skin and rupture blood vessels and blood cells and serum gets into the surrounding tissue (Fig. 13).
What do you guys think? Does this make sense. Has anyone ever asked Dr. F or Dr. S if there is a difference in the amount of blood during a dermaroll session with a 1 or 1.5mm roller vs a 3.0mm roller? Are either doctor using an Dermapen vs a dermaroller? |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:30 am |
I am going to take an experienced guess that Dr. F is not going to discuss motorized rolling as it goes against his own research and self-promoted protocol.
Dr. S is more independent and I think we may have more info from him soon, will keep you updated.
Here's an other guess - the motions are different with the two methods. The roller "drags" or "rolls" (pun intended lol) across the skin. The pen deviced are more of a straight up and down motion. Perhaps the former tears open more blood capillaries or something like that?....(?)
BFG |
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Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:34 am |
If anyone here would like to split a needle cartridge order with me, please send me a private message here.
Also, now that I am "motor needling" - I probaby don't need my stock of Dr. Roller, 1.5m needle rollers, still unopened in their boxes.
If anyone know of a place to swap or trade, please let me know...I guess I could try eBay too, but their fees are often high for occasional sellers.
Thanks, BFG |
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Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:08 pm |
| CookieD wrote: |
| packratmack wrote: |
I would be concerned over the lack of bleeding too. Do you think it has anything to do with the different type of movement or pressure of the instrument that is used? The roller seems a lot more brutal than using the pen. Maybe the pressure of moving a roller over the face somehow causes more blood to surface? Although, you did say you bled a lot with a stamp. Do you think you penetrated your skin more deeply with the stamp than the pen? I really would have thought since you are a bleeder, you would have gotten the same results with the pen. Maybe we can come up with an answer for the difference. |
Hi packratmack, I think you may be on to something with the pressure comment. Think about when you pop a pimple. You squeeze it junk comes out and you squeeze some more and blood comes out. Same thing if you have a cut and you put pressure on the area around the cut. More blood will come out but if there isn't that pressure it might not bleed much if at all. That doesn't mean that the cut/pimple is not there. Just that it bleeds more with pressure on the surrounding area.
I think the rolling action of the drum of the dermaroller is causing more blood to the surface of the skin then the Dermapen. I don't know what kind of Dermastamp people are using. There are large rectangle types and small round circle types. I used the round circle type (about the head size of a dime) and didn't really bleed with that. I would think there isn't any pressure on the surrounding areas when using this type of Dermastamp.
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Cookie, I tried both the larger derma stamp and the small circle one, and bled much more with the small one. More even than when I used the 3 line roller. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:14 pm |
| packratmack wrote: |
Hi bethany, Do you prefer the MY-M over a regular roller? Did you use the same type of pattern as you would with a roller?
I would be concerned over the lack of bleeding too. Do you think it has anything to do with the different type of movement or pressure of the instrument that is used? The roller seems a lot more brutal than using the pen. Maybe the pressure of moving a roller over the face somehow causes more blood to surface? Although, you did say you bled a lot with a stamp. Do you think you penetrated your skin more deeply with the stamp than the pen? I really would have thought since you are a bleeder, you would have gotten the same results with the pen. Maybe we can come up with an answer for the difference. |
I expected to see the level of bleeding as with the same sized stamp, and was very surprised that I didn't. However, maybe I just need to hold it a bit longer over each area. This was my first time, so I will remain open minded. 
I did like it better than rolling. I did not use the same pattern as when rolling because the needles are so close together that I don't think that is warranted. But I think I should have done a 2nd pass over my whole face since I could see some obvious path patterns the next day, and it was clear that I missed some places. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:41 pm |
| Fedex came with my My-M today. It took only six days to the East Coast. I'm surprised it got here so fast. I think I am more nervous to use this than a roller. I need to toughen up. |
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Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:26 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
Cookie, I tried both the larger derma stamp and the small circle one, and bled much more with the small one. More even than when I used the 3 line roller. |
Gosh that just goes to show how different everybody's skin is. When I used the small Dermastamp I hardly bled at all but I just used it under my eye and on my lip lines. When I used the 3 line roller I don't think I drew any blood but I hated that thing so maybe I didn't use it correctly. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:19 am |
In a recent issue of Allure magazine there was an article on procedures and treatments that are proving to be duds and the PRP treatment was in there (lots of hope for the treatment, but the results don't seem to be there). And this comment is hearsay, but I have also heard that PRP with the Dermapen isn't proving to be all the effective either. |
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:48 am |
| Panda1 wrote: |
In a recent issue of Allure magazine there was an article on procedures and treatments that are proving to be duds and the PRP treatment was in there (lots of hope for the treatment, but the results don't seem to be there). And this comment is hearsay, but I have also heard that PRP with the Dermapen isn't proving to be all the effective either. |
Just wanted to add, I'm not suggesting that PRP treatment doesn't work...just that it maybe doesn't work as well or as quickly as had been hoped (i.e., not the magic bullet), and that the results from needling with and without PRP haven't shown a dramatic difference. |
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Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:41 am |
I did my first deep needling treatment last night - full face, with the My-M.
I am swollen today and sore, more sore than when I used the roller.
Key difference I noticed right way...I used the longest needle setting and in no way was I gliding the pen across my face. Due to the depth of the needles, it was definitely more of a vertical, stamping motion, than a gliding or sliding motion.
For me, the pen produced as much blood as the roller, but not as evenly (although oddly, it was even along the jaw line) more light pink all over with somewhat large droplets of blood here and there.
As with a tattoo needle, there was more pain, but more even penetration over the "bonier' sections of my face - such as jaw and eye sockets...harder to draw blood on the fleshier parts like cheeks.
I began to actually push harder in those areas.
Pros: I really preferred the pen over the roller in that the pen does the "stabbing" for me and I don't have the resistance with that like I did with the roller.
Cons: stamping takes time and maybe even more time than the roller, so I need to re-think my numbing strategy.
I was playing with various speeds and that seemed to produce a difference too in the amount of blood that was produced.
At some point in the evening, it occurred to me that over the years, I have done a ton of personal research on this subject and I think there's a need for an FAQ document for the average consumer - so he/she doesn't have to wade through (like I did) hundreds of forum pages or scientific articles. I am thinking of writing something similar to owndoc - but since I am not in the business of selling any products, this would be a different format...more objective. Those are my initial thoughts anyway.
I have quite a collection of links and sources.
BFG |
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Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:48 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I was playing with various speeds and that seemed to produce a difference too in the amount of blood that was produced. |
I did the same thing as far as playing with the different speeds. What speed setting are other people using. Is there a "best" speed to use?
| Quote: |
At some point in the evening, it occurred to me that over the years, I have done a ton of personal research on this subject and I think there's a need for an FAQ document for the average consumer - so he/she doesn't have to wade through (like I did) hundreds of forum pages or scientific articles. I am thinking of writing something similar to owndoc - but since I am not in the business of selling any products, this would be a different format...more objective. Those are my initial thoughts anyway.
I have quite a collection of links and sources.
BFG |
That would be a lot of work but I'm sure it would be a great help to a lot people. Thanks BFG for your write up.
Is anyone using HA with the pen for glide? That is what they use on the Dermapen videos and I am thinking of doing that for my next treatment. I am not using any numbing cream with the pen so the HA won't interfere with that. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:30 am |
I'm not a bleeder. I have had a lot of significant results with rolling and stamping and now the pen, without bleeding.
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Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:25 pm |
| Anyone else in Australia purchased this yet? I have just purchased and would be interested in sharing a purchase of needles in the future.... |
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Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:21 pm |
| Bec count me in for a share in needles. I haven't purchased yet but plan to. |
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Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:42 am |
| Mishey wrote: |
| Bec count me in for a share in needles. I haven't purchased yet but plan to. |
yay! Mishey...will be in touch once mine gets here ) |
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Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:14 am |
| Has anyone used HA to help with glide with the My-m like they do in the Dermapen video? I am going to do a "roll" tonight and am thinking of using HA with it. I am a little concerned that it will block the Vit A & C that I put on after the roll. But HA can absorb and hold lots of water so maybe it will act like a sponge and actually help absorb more of the product into my skin. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:09 pm |
I did my second treatment with the My-m last night. I did use HA with it. The HA did really help with the "slip" so I was able to drag it on my skin without causing damage. I didn't like that it dried really quickly and I had to keep adding more. Maybe it was the brand I used. This is not a product I have used much of it the past.
I don't think that my Vit A and C products penetrated my skin quite as well after this roll with the HA. This morning I could still feel the oil on my skin. I did put on a lot of product but it usually sinks in well.
I was able to draw blood but I am getting less blood with each roll I do but it is still a lot more then just pinpricks here and there. I really went hard on my neck and chest area. Both of these place have red strawberry spots on them today especially on my chest. I wore a turtle neck today so you can't tell. My face really doesn't show any signs of the roll other then at the top of my cheeks and under my eyes just a bit.
I used the 1.5mm and the fastest setting everywhere. I probably should have used a smaller needles setting on my forehead and under eye area but didn't. I didn't use any numbing cream but my forehead area hurt quite a bit but I was able to get through it.
Using the My-m does seem to take longer for me then a dermaroller because if I don't use anything for slip on the skin I use the pen more like a stamp. Because the head is very small that takes a long time. For me it is easier to "drag" it on the skin on the slower settings. Maybe I will use that setting more.
Since this is my fourth roll I hope I will start to see some progress in the next month. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:14 am |
| CookieD wrote: |
I did my second treatment with the My-m last night. I did use HA with it. The HA did really help with the "slip" so I was able to drag it on my skin without causing damage. I didn't like that it dried really quickly and I had to keep adding more. Maybe it was the brand I used. This is not a product I have used much of it the past.
I don't think that my Vit A and C products penetrated my skin quite as well after this roll with the HA. This morning I could still feel the oil on my skin. I did put on a lot of product but it usually sinks in well.
I was able to draw blood but I am getting less blood with each roll I do but it is still a lot more then just pinpricks here and there. I really went hard on my neck and chest area. Both of these place have red strawberry spots on them today especially on my chest. I wore a turtle neck today so you can't tell. My face really doesn't show any signs of the roll other then at the top of my cheeks and under my eyes just a bit.
I used the 1.5mm and the fastest setting everywhere. I probably should have used a smaller needles setting on my forehead and under eye area but didn't. I didn't use any numbing cream but my forehead area hurt quite a bit but I was able to get through it.
Using the My-m does seem to take longer for me then a dermaroller because if I don't use anything for slip on the skin I use the pen more like a stamp. Because the head is very small that takes a long time. For me it is easier to "drag" it on the skin on the slower settings. Maybe I will use that setting more.
Since this is my fourth roll I hope I will start to see some progress in the next month. |
thanks Cookie, I am just about to start with mine, so this is hugely helpful. Is there some other product we could use to gain slip? My first thought was an oil such as rosehip that would not dry out and would have skin benefits also? |
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Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:56 am |
What does HA stand for and where do you get it? Is it a numbing cream and/or lubricant? I bought a MyM but haven't used it yet. Actually I ended up buying two of them,  accidentily, so I have an unopened one for sale for anyone in the US. Just PM me. |
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Vehicle is a 1952 scratch and dent model....olive-ish, dry skin, long curly gray hair. Staples: Tazorac, 2mm Dermaroller, Anti Aging Light Stim, Devita Sunscreens, homemade C serums, some positive affirmations and whatever else it takes! Kicking and screaming the whole way... |
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Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:41 am |
| CookieD wrote: |
| I did my second treatment with the My-m last night. I did use HA with it. The HA did really help with the "slip" so I was able to drag it on my skin without causing damage. I didn't like that it dried really quickly and I had to keep adding more. Maybe it was the brand I used. This is not a product I have used much of it the past. |
Cookie, the aesthetician that is doing my treatment only applies the hyaluronic acid (HA) to a small area at a time. I have never had an issue with the HA drying - in fact, she usually wipes the residual product off as she completes each section. And I would say that she is being quite generous with the amount of HA that she is using.
The thing that would concern me about oil is that you are definitely pushing whatever topical substance you are using into the skin and that may be a problem for some. I tend to think of HA as rather benign since it is a natural component of the skin.
I've also completed four treatments and I am starting to see a real improvement in my neck in terms of texture (i.e., crepiness). |
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Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:55 am |
| mountaingirl wrote: |
| What does HA stand for and where do you get it? Is it a numbing cream and/or lubricant? I bought a MyM but haven't used it yet. Actually I ended up buying two of them, accidentily, so I have an unopened one for sale for anyone in the US. Just PM me. |
HA stands for Hyaluronic Acid. I use one from Babyface. I bought this brand because it says it uses medical grade HA, not food grade like some other companies. I don't know how important that is but it wasn't that expensive and I don't plan on using it except with the Dermapen.
Rebecca, the reason I am using HA and not oil is because that is what the use in the Dermapen training videos online. I am not sure if oil would be a good idea.
Panda, maybe I need a thicker HA or to use more of it. I only applied it to one section of my face at a time but still had to add more each section. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:07 am |
| CookieD wrote: |
Panda, maybe I need a thicker HA or to use more of it. I only applied it to one section of my face at a time but still had to add more each section. |
You might just try slathering it on. Hyaluronic acid can be super cheap. If you are a DIYer you can buy HA powder and mix it with distilled water to achieve optimal consistency. Even if you are not someone that does DIY, making a HA serum requires no skill and is very economical. |
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