| Author |
Message |
|
|
|
Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:39 am  |
We might regret needling when we reach 80, but I have this feeling that at 80, I'll be focused on more critical issues (I hope!)
BFG |
|
|
|
|
|
Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:46 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
We might regret needling when we reach 80, but I have this feeling that at 80, I'll be focused on more critical issues (I hope!)
BFG |
BFG, I think you are probably just kidding around here, but I have to say that that was my attitude about the sun for many, many years. It felt good and it made me look good and if there was a problem I would deal with it in my 50's. Unfortunately, when I got to be 50 it WAS a problem and I DID have to deal with it and I am still dealing with it, and I guess that is why I question so much. There is a down side to most everything and that is why I appreciate hearing some of the negative comments about products/gadgets and it is also why I likely always sound so skeptical. Maybe there is nothing wrong with continually piercing the skin with a needle. I'm just looking for some reinsurance  |
|
|
|
|
|
Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:00 pm |
| Panda1 wrote: |
| Maybe there is nothing wrong with continually piercing the skin with a needle. I'm just looking for some reinsurance |
I am of the mindset that less is more, and prefer to only needle a few times a year. And I also took many years off and didn't needle at all. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
|
|
|
|
Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:21 am |
| I'm the same as bethany on this one. I have periodic intensive rolling for stretchmarks, then back off for a long time. I am very cautious rolling my face. I am also erring on the side of caution using the STOP. I always get great results and I am grateful for the responsiveness of my skin and very respectful not to overload it. |
|
|
|
|
|
Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:25 am |
| catski wrote: |
| I'm the same as bethany on this one. I have periodic intensive rolling for stretchmarks, then back off for a long time. I am very cautious rolling my face. I am also erring on the side of caution using the STOP. I always get great results and I am grateful for the responsiveness of my skin and very respectful not to overload it. |
Exactly. Sometimes I feel guilty that I don't use all my gadgets to their full potential, but then I remind myself that overuse is even worse. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
|
|
|
|
Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:15 am |
It was meant as a tongue in cheek statement, not in response to any personal issues here...and actually reflects my own views on life.
If I am fortunate enough to reach 80, I am guessing that at that time, I will be focusing less on preventing wrinkles for the future and more on trying to get the most out of all the days I have remaining...i.e. - the best for that moment.
BFG |
|
|
|
|
|
Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:23 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
It was meant as a tongue in cheek statement, not in response to any personal issues here...and actually reflects my own views on life.
If I am fortunate enough to reach 80, I am guessing that at that time, I will be focusing less on preventing wrinkles for the future and more on trying to get the most out of all the days I have remaining...i.e. - the best for that moment.
BFG |
When people used to talk about Botox killing brain cells, I used to reply that the less I had, the more tolerable the senior years would probably be. And I still believe that, lol. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
|
|
|
 |
Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:56 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
We might regret needling when we reach 80, but I have this feeling that at 80, I'll be focused on more critical issues (I hope!)
BFG |
Hi BFG, I will try to restrict my posts to this thread and it seems I am allowed to post again. This 5 a day post limit is quite annoying.
Can I say I am sorry if I offended anyone with the retorts that went back and forth between SVaughter and myself. I hope my arguments were rational and if anyone has questions about them please feel free to ask.
You know BFG we may regret it 80, but when you consider some of the other alternatives out there, and we offer quite a few ourselves what I do like about needling is that it is a very controlled form of micro damage that makes the body fix itself and produce new collagen naturally. Obviously there has been no 40 year studies or anything like that, but I like the idea of growing collagen naturally as opposed to injecting ourselves with all sorts of things. Also when you consider how you can heal scars with needling it really does seem like at age 80 we will be happy we needled for the last 40 years.
Someone said that I said you shouldnt get any bruising or swelling. Maybe I didn't articulate myself well enough. I meant you should not get any bruising as in black & blue coloured skin. Yes you will get swelling, that is a natural response, but bruising which I thought the person said she got should not happen. Certainly I havent seen it with the Dermapen, maybe it could happen if a practitioner pushed to hard on the skin.
To the person who said they used the DJ at 1.5 over the FND, did you also do the forehead? If so I find it very strange that you did not get any bleeding. I have done many treatments on many people with the Dermapen and I almost always get bleeding on the forehead at 0.5mm so I find it strange that you wouldn't get it at 1.5mm.
I would also like to clear up a point that was erroneously made regarding high revolutions creating a minced meat effect on the skin with the Dermapen. There are 1000s of medical practitioners around the world using Dermapen at full speed (in fact most only use full speed) and I have never once seen or heard of any patient having minced meat. I guess theoretically it is possible if you did many, many passes (but that would be the same with a roller), and perhaps on some scars I have treated, when I have done 10 to 15 passes we can create a little bit of a resurfacing effect. But this clears up with in a week and by far gives the best results. It is also the speed of revolutions that enable us to glide the Dermapen across the skin as it is entering and exiting the skin so fast that is makes this possible.
Also as I said in my very first post 1000s of doctors around the world can and will attest to the fact that the Dermapen has given them better results than any dermal roller they have used. Why is this the case? The reason for this is the more micro holes you create in the skin, the better the immune response which ultimately leads to more regeneration of skin, angiogenesis and the production of more collagen. With a 1000 hole per second (Dermapen) you create 3 times the amount of holes than your average roller - hence the enhanced results.
A system that can only do a maximum of 180 holes per second in the skin is actually creating less holes than a roller, so you would be better of sticking to rollers if you are comparing results.
I am also sorry if there is confusion between what I am saying and what people see on the US Dermapen website. This is our distributor for the US and they control their own pricing, so what you see there does not reflect what happens in the rest of the world. |
|
|
havana8
Moderator
 
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3449
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:27 pm |
Thank you so much havana!
I found this quote in the article, which mentions there is research on rollers causing tearing:
“By creating purely vertical intrusions
into the epidermis and dermis, trauma
is minimized. This is important because
research has shown that the use of a
roller causes a more traumatic tearing
wound,” said Dr. Sasaki.
Vendors of stamping devices should have the reference readily available to read on this.(?)
BFG |
|
|
|
|
|
Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:34 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Thank you so much havana!
I found this quote in the article, which mentions there is research on rollers causing tearing:
“By creating purely vertical intrusions
into the epidermis and dermis, trauma
is minimized. This is important because
research has shown that the use of a
roller causes a more traumatic tearing
wound,” said Dr. Sasaki.
Vendors of stamping devices should have the reference readily available to read on this.(?)
BFG |
Did you see the part where they said channels only stay open for 10-15 mins? Plus they kept calling it "microneedle dermabrasion" which seems really odd to me. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
|
|
|
|
Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:00 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
Did you see the part where they said channels only stay open for 10-15 mins? Plus they kept calling it "microneedle dermabrasion" which seems really odd to me. |
I'm pretty sure I've seen this article on the DermaPen US website and they have a "blog" where most or all of these doctors have posted something. Bethany, I think that when you are creating 1000 microwounds a second the sheer number of piercings of the skin are going to cause some exfoliation. |
|
|
|
|
|
Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:10 pm |
| Panda1 wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
Did you see the part where they said channels only stay open for 10-15 mins? Plus they kept calling it "microneedle dermabrasion" which seems really odd to me. |
I'm pretty sure I've seen this article on the DermaPen US website and they have a "blog" where most or all of these doctors have posted something. Bethany, I think that when you are creating 1000 microwounds a second the sheer number of piercings of the skin are going to cause some exfoliation. |
Ah...very interesting! |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:58 am |
| Panda1 wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
Did you see the part where they said channels only stay open for 10-15 mins? Plus they kept calling it "microneedle dermabrasion" which seems really odd to me. |
I'm pretty sure I've seen this article on the DermaPen US website and they have a "blog" where most or all of these doctors have posted something. Bethany, I think that when you are creating 1000 microwounds a second the sheer number of piercings of the skin are going to cause some exfoliation. |
Thats a great point you make Panda... it is something that we found out early on in the piece. I remember visiting a clinic in Kuwait who said they weren't happy with the Dermapen because after the treatment the skin was super dry and flaky, almost like a Fraxel laser treatment (healed much quicker though as there was no bulk heating built up in the skin). They said they never saw that on clients after rolling their face... and of course this is something we see all over the world. The reason is exactly what you have stated, it is because of the sheer number of micro holes the Dermapen creates in the skin that you get that slight resurfacing effect like a laser. This is great because its really shows you that there is a greater immune response that will ultimately lead to more collagen growth and a better result. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:45 am |
James,
Are you familiar with the research Dr. Sasaki is referring to the article? or a link that discusses the problems of skin micro-tearing with respect to the rollers for needling?
Thank you, BFG |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:56 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
James,
Are you familiar with the research Dr. Sasaki is referring to the article? or a link that discusses the problems of skin micro-tearing with respect to the rollers for needling?
Thank you, BFG |
Hi BFG,
Unfortunately I am not familiar with the research Dr. Sasaki is referring to. Although we supply Dermapen US with the actual system as they are our distributor they tend to act fairly autonomously. Which means I have had no interactions with Dr. Sasaki myself and this article has been produced by the US.
I have another question though for all of you needle users out there... We have spoken before about some people being very capable of using deeper needles lengths and others perhaps not being as capable. What questions would you ask someone by way of a test to asses their capabilities? How do you think we could test someone to see if they should be trusted to use deeper needle lengths safely? Please try to think of all aspects that you would want to know if you were a company like ours. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:14 am |
| JamesM wrote: |
I have another question though for all of you needle users out there... We have spoken before about some people being very capable of using deeper needles lengths and others perhaps not being as capable. What questions would you ask someone by way of a test to asses their capabilities? How do you think we could test someone to see if they should be trusted to use deeper needle lengths safely? Please try to think of all aspects that you would want to know if you were a company like ours. |
I really don't think it's necessary for someone to pass a test to purchase a needling device. There are plenty of other domestic devices on the market which if not used with care may cause harm. If a responsible adult is capable of using a long needled roller, they are also capable of using a needle pen. Indeed, a needle pen could be considered less problematic because the possibility of infection is lessened by way of the disposable needle cartridges. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:44 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| JamesM wrote: |
I have another question though for all of you needle users out there... We have spoken before about some people being very capable of using deeper needles lengths and others perhaps not being as capable. What questions would you ask someone by way of a test to asses their capabilities? How do you think we could test someone to see if they should be trusted to use deeper needle lengths safely? Please try to think of all aspects that you would want to know if you were a company like ours. |
I really don't think it's necessary for someone to pass a test to purchase a needling device. There are plenty of other domestic devices on the market which if not used with care may cause harm. If a responsible adult is capable of using a long needled roller, they are also capable of using a needle pen. Indeed, a needle pen could be considered less problematic because the possibility of infection is lessened by way of the disposable needle cartridges. |
I am sure it isn't necessary for most of you to take a test to purchase longer needles, but the problem is if we do decide to make longer needle lengths available, not everyone is as knowledgable and capable as the users of this site. I think someone else has said on here they have seen people do some horrendous things with rollers. How do we know the person isn't going to do some serious damage with it. I guess we never will, but we need, as a reputable company to put in place some measure of making sure someone has a rudimentary knowledge of skin, the effects of needles, numbing cream and possible side effects etc.
There may be plenty of other companies on the market offering longer use devices with absolutely no checks on the people buying them or that take no responsibility of any sort, but we really cant risk our reputation as a responsible company by not checking peoples competence levels first.
Lets take one scenario: Someone has never tried needling before, hears how great it is and lets say, how great the dermapen is. They have some deep wrinkles under their eyes, they pop in a 1.5mm tip and go to town on the inner peri-orbital area. They could cause some serious damage. Not only do we not want that scenario for our customer, we also don't want it reflecting bad on us. By at least having some way of testing their competency levels we can mitigate this sort of risk. I personally think any company not doing that now are crazy, but thats their choice.
It doesn't need to be a PHD level questionnaire, it should just be something you would expect someone to be able to answer before they stick 1mm needles or longer into their skin. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:30 am |
| JamesM wrote: |
...
I have another question though for all of you needle users out there... We have spoken before about some people being very capable of using deeper needles lengths and others perhaps not being as capable. What questions would you ask someone by way of a test to asses their capabilities? How do you think we could test someone to see if they should be trusted to use deeper needle lengths safely? Please try to think of all aspects that you would want to know if you were a company like ours. |
JamesM, I really think you need to decide who your customer is. If you start selling medical grade devices to anyone I would think that you might lose the support of the physicians and medspa's that currently comprise your customer base. A quality home device with a range of .3 to 1.0 should be sufficient for the majority of home users. I'm sure that rollers will continue to be available and those looking for longer needle lengths will always have that option. In addition, new automated needling devices are being introduced all the time so whatever you come up with will constantly be compared to another product and home users are very sensitive to price.
While needling has been around forever, it's only recently that it is becoming mainstream. The two major proponents of needling (Fernandez and Setterfield) seem to have different opinions as to the best protocol. I suspect/hope that further studies are underway.
Lastly, you need to know exactly what your liability is if someone does permanent damage to themselves, because it sounds like that is a possibility - which means that it is only a matter of time. Some of the EDS forum members are extremely knowledgeable about needling, but I'm not sure what percentage of the total user base that really is. If you are looking to introduce another "product" you might start with a better numbing cream - one that works better and faster than Elma. I'm sure lots of people would purchase that.
I guess this is a very long way of saying that I think the idea of a "test" is not practical. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:53 am |
Well, I can say for certain that at $750 a pop (what the medspa near me that uses Dermapen charges), no spa is ever going to get my business for a Dermapen session! I checked because I kind of wanted to just try one for a reference, but no thanks!
Even at $300/pop, most of us can't afford to do sessions every 6 weeks or whatever.
So I respectfully have to disagree with Panda1's rationale about Dermapen potentially putting doctors and medspa's noses out of joint by selling to consumers. Most Medspa treatments are out of range for the vast majority of consumers (see my comment above), so selling longer-needle Dermapens to consumers isn't going to affect any doctor's or spa's bottom line. But selling to consumers *will* increase Dermapen's bottom line, I'd be willing to bet.
Us home users are no threat to the medspa business, trust me. We aren't going there, anyway.
So *nobody* wins if manufacturers only offer short needle devices to consumers, because even while we're not going to medspa's, we're also not going to buy expensive devices for what amount to product penetration that can be achieved with rollers at a fraction of the price. If we can't get a decent device to replicate the spa treatment, we just do without.
I also hope nobody is assuming that we're all just skinflints on here and have the money but are simply not willing to pay for professionally done treatments. That's not the case, and most of us pick and choose carefully and must budget for what we do. For the majority of us, buying a pricey device is an investment against the long term cash drain of comparable treatments done at a spa, and home use is the only way we can have reliable, steady access to these anti-aging modalities.
And, while I understand the concerns of JamesM about stupid people doing stupid things with these devices, the reality is that most people are capable of not damaging themselves, and at any rate, making consumers sign a legal disclaimer for a device that goes up to 1.5mm would probably cover all bases. I'd sign one, for sure.
Testing is too clunky and would consume Dermapen's profits just with the bureaucracy and infrastructure necessary to keep track of the tests. Disclaimers would be much better all the way around. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:00 am |
Well, Dermapen already has the potential for liability just due to the fact that they are already in the skincare business. The only difference is opening up the market to a broader category of users and thus, more exposure.
I would like to think on this further, but perhaps control the distribution channels?
As one example, my dentist sells oral irrigation units...I buy mine from him. Maybe the consumer can buy his/her Dermapen from a professional who provides some information firsthand and the consumer signs a release form before purchase? Maybe give the professional a percentage of sales so they are incentivized to sell through this channel? My dentist makes money not only from cleaning my teeth but also selling me products to use at home. I think Dermapen executives should sit around a table and think about this strategy.
I've never studied the Dermapen closely - is it similar to the My-M in that one cartridge provides all needle lengths?
Another possible strategy is to control who is able to buy which needle length cartridges?
BFG |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:04 am |
Distributors of home hair coloring kits, home hair permanent waving kits, self administered diabetic needles, allergy shots, etc. ...they have already faced this - so there must be a precedent.
All of these come with lengthy instructions since they have a potential for causing health problems, if used improperly.
I am not referring to cosmetic problems - I am referring to health problems.
BFG |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:10 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I've never studied the Dermapen closely - is it similar to the My-M in that one cartridge provides all needle lengths?
Another possible strategy is to control who is able to buy which needle length cartridges?
BFG |
The cartridges of the prof. model can go from .25-2.5. I have no doubt one could be made that only adjusts from .25-1.0. |
_________________
Esthetician working at a Med-spa. Love the Clarisonic! |
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:59 am |
| LauraLizzie wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I've never studied the Dermapen closely - is it similar to the My-M in that one cartridge provides all needle lengths?
Another possible strategy is to control who is able to buy which needle length cartridges?
BFG |
The cartridges of the prof. model can go from .25-2.5. I have no doubt one could be made that only adjusts from .25-1.0. |
LauraLizzie, you are describing the Aesthetic model that DermaPen already sells in the US.
Yubs, I'm not saying just limit to "short needles". I think 1.0mm is a pretty decent size. If someone wants to go deeper they can always use a roller and that is both safer and cost effective.
I've said this before, I'm very conservative about skin care. Maybe too conservative. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:30 am |
I think these may be the best options -
- limiting needle length (but not too short! LOL)
- release form or language or check a box on the terms and conditions before purchasing online, something like that
- possible distribution through professional channels
I paid $300 for one session with the Dermapen several months ago at a dermatologists office. All the esthetician would tell me was that she was using .5 on my cheeks and .25 over the rest of my face. I think my sister's microdermabrasion machine was more intense! LOL
BFG |
|
|
|
|
| Thu Apr 18, 2024 2:11 pm |
If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.
Click Here to join our community.
If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site. |
|
 |
|
