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Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:56 am |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
I think these may be the best options -
- limiting needle length (but not too short! LOL)
- release form or language or check a box on the terms and conditions before purchasing online, something like that
- possible distribution through professional channels
I paid $300 for one session with the Dermapen several months ago at a dermatologists office. All the esthetician would tell me was that she was using .5 on my cheeks and .25 over the rest of my face. I think my sister's microdermabrasion machine was more intense! LOL
BFG |
I think I have only one or 2 more posts for the day but this is what we were considering... I dont think it is too clunky but maybe you guys think differently.
First of all we could offer the Dermapen Personal through clinics, but they will want their margins and it will make it more expensive for the consumer. So if we go with a business model for selling the Dermapen Personal only through the website then people will obviously have to sign up to the site to purchase - need shipping details etc.
Firstly, yes I think everyone should sign an electronic waver as suggested here.
Secondly if they wish to purchase needles longer than 0.5mm they simply take a one time electronic competency test on the website which is recorded in their profile that they have completed it... its all electronic, no having to keep track of tests etc. They pass they can purchase the longer needles, and they don't have to do the test again as its been recorded.
I think this is quite an elegant solution that makes sure people know something about what they are purchasing.
What do you guys think? |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:10 pm |
LauraLizzie wrote: |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
I've never studied the Dermapen closely - is it similar to the My-M in that one cartridge provides all needle lengths?
Another possible strategy is to control who is able to buy which needle length cartridges?
BFG |
The cartridges of the prof. model can go from .25-2.5. I have no doubt one could be made that only adjusts from .25-1.0. |
length upto 1.5 is very important for treating scars.. 1mm just doesn't do it... but then for smaller scars one can easily use a dermastamp.... |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:18 pm |
JamesM wrote: |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
I think these may be the best options -
- limiting needle length (but not too short! LOL)
- release form or language or check a box on the terms and conditions before purchasing online, something like that
- possible distribution through professional channels
I paid $300 for one session with the Dermapen several months ago at a dermatologists office. All the esthetician would tell me was that she was using .5 on my cheeks and .25 over the rest of my face. I think my sister's microdermabrasion machine was more intense! LOL
BFG |
I think I have only one or 2 more posts for the day but this is what we were considering... I dont think it is too clunky but maybe you guys think differently.
First of all we could offer the Dermapen Personal through clinics, but they will want their margins and it will make it more expensive for the consumer. So if we go with a business model for selling the Dermapen Personal only through the website then people will obviously have to sign up to the site to purchase - need shipping details etc.
Firstly, yes I think everyone should sign an electronic waver as suggested here.
Secondly if they wish to purchase needles longer than 0.5mm they simply take a one time electronic competency test on the website which is recorded in their profile that they have completed it... its all electronic, no having to keep track of tests etc. They pass they can purchase the longer needles, and they don't have to do the test again as its been recorded.
I think this is quite an elegant solution that makes sure people know something about what they are purchasing.
What do you guys think? |
Works for me!! |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:28 pm |
Sounds ok, just as long as you dont ask any questions on Sport |
_________________ 46 got (PMD,Caci,QuasarMD,Tria , skin spatula) Using, environ , myfawnie serums, lacsal, retinol, GHk probably more but too embarrased to say |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:02 pm |
Sounds like a plan...curious about the test questions?
basic knowledge of needling? risks? protocols?
I hope your posting privileges are expanded soon!
BFG |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:26 pm |
JamesM wrote: |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
I think these may be the best options -
- limiting needle length (but not too short! LOL)
- release form or language or check a box on the terms and conditions before purchasing online, something like that
- possible distribution through professional channels
I paid $300 for one session with the Dermapen several months ago at a dermatologists office. All the esthetician would tell me was that she was using .5 on my cheeks and .25 over the rest of my face. I think my sister's microdermabrasion machine was more intense! LOL
BFG |
I think I have only one or 2 more posts for the day but this is what we were considering... I dont think it is too clunky but maybe you guys think differently.
First of all we could offer the Dermapen Personal through clinics, but they will want their margins and it will make it more expensive for the consumer. So if we go with a business model for selling the Dermapen Personal only through the website then people will obviously have to sign up to the site to purchase - need shipping details etc.
Firstly, yes I think everyone should sign an electronic waver as suggested here.
Secondly if they wish to purchase needles longer than 0.5mm they simply take a one time electronic competency test on the website which is recorded in their profile that they have completed it... its all electronic, no having to keep track of tests etc. They pass they can purchase the longer needles, and they don't have to do the test again as its been recorded.
I think this is quite an elegant solution that makes sure people know something about what they are purchasing.
What do you guys think? |
Interesting plan! So does this mean that the control of the needle length is part of the needle cartridge instead of on the pen? That is, for the original purchase the consumer gets a cartridge that is fixed at .5mm. Once they pass the test, do they then get a variable length cartridge (.5 to 2.0) or do they just get longer fixed length cartridges such that they would need to change cartridges if they chose to vary the needle length during treatment? Hope that makes sense. |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:16 pm |
I like Jim's idea of the electronic competency test. I would like to have the needles go to 1.5mm for a home unit but would consider buying one that only went to 1.0mm. |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:04 pm |
10Sylvia5 wrote: |
Sounds ok, just as long as you dont ask any questions on Sport |
Sport Dermal Needling! Just because it's so much *fun*!
Seriously, the idea of a test sounds pretty good. Perhaps you could even work with knowledgeable consumers to develop it.
I personally wouldn't buy anything with less than 1.5 option, simply because we don't know enough yet about the optimal needle length for rejuvenation. Right now lengths seem to be regressing, but that could change as more data comes in. I just don't want to be pigeonholed. I don't necessarily want to use all my options, but prefer to have them available just in case.
But think a test to ensure competency to use the device is totally reasonable. A "study packet" for the test might also help educate people while at the same time enabling them to buy the device. |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:08 pm |
I am hoping that James may be able to share some studies with us on needle length and collagen development...he has way more connections and access to info than we do.
James, I have provided a link to prior articles and studies we have shared so that you can see that we are definitely interested in all the juicy details.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860&highlight=cit |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:08 pm |
Firstly, I disagree with some of the points that have been made about pricing. The cosmetic industry is one of the biggest cash cows in the world today. Both women and men regularly spend thousands of dollars on their appearance these days. For example, a hair cut with a full head of foils can cost as much as $300 - then there's laser, microdermabrasian treatments, facials, fillers, Botox the list goes on and on. Plus, some of the luxury high end cosmetic lines charge thousands of dollars for just a jar of face cream.
When I looked at the price of the DermaPen I had just bought the ReAura Laser and didn't want to make another major purchase for a device which I knew I would be using irregularly. I am willing to pay more for a reliable, good quality device but I think the DermaPen now has to be competitive in pricing with other devices that are now flooding the market.
As for a consumer "test". I'm pretty sure I had to fill in an online questionnaire when I bought the ReAura. But now the devices are being sold on Ebay without any "test" - so where does that leave Philips if all they're worried about is litigation from improper use. I'm not aware of any test being required to buy the similar Tria device.
The only reason for a competency test would be to cover the manufacturer from litigation from improper usage. But surely, some type of warning information supplied with the device would be adequate. Over on the Pico thread I brought up the fact that the FDA have suggested that TENS and micro-TENS devices be accompanied by a warning that the devices can cause death if used over the heart or neck. But these devices are not sold with a competency test. What about chain saws, nail guns etc. etc. Do you know that the most common accident from using lawn mowers is people mowing the lawn with bare feet and chopping off their toes. But when purchasing a lawn mower do we have to sign something promising that we will never mow the lawn with bare feet - No!! What about all the people who do chemical peels at home, use microdermabrasian machines or administer their own Botox and fillers? Anyway, I'm rambling, but you get the picture. I don't think manufacturers should have to play "Mummy" - a good set of instructions and a warning against improper use should be enough. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:11 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
Firstly, I disagree with some of the points that have been made about pricing. The cosmetic industry is one of the biggest cash cows in the world today. Both women and men regularly spend thousands of dollars on their appearance these days. For example, a hair cut with a full head of foils can cost as much as $300 - then there's laser, microdermabrasian treatments, facials, fillers, Botox the list goes on and on. Plus, some of the luxury high end cosmetic lines charge thousands of dollars for just a jar of face cream.
When I looked at the price of the DermaPen I had just bought the ReAura Laser and didn't want to make another major purchase for a device which I knew I would be using irregularly. I am willing to pay more for a reliable, good quality device but I think the DermaPen now has to be competitive in pricing with other devices that are now flooding the market.
As for a consumer "test". I'm pretty sure I had to fill in an online questionnaire when I bought the ReAura. But now the devices are being sold on Ebay without any "test" - so where does that leave Philips if all they're worried about is litigation from improper use. I'm not aware of any test being required to buy the similar Tria device.
The only reason for a competency test would be to cover the manufacturer from litigation from improper usage. But surely, some type of warning information supplied with the device would be adequate. Over on the Pico thread I brought up the fact that the FDA have suggested that TENS and micro-TENS devices be accompanied by a warning that the devices can cause death if used over the heart or neck. But these devices are not sold with a competency test. What about chain saws, nail guns etc. etc. Do you know that the most common accident from using lawn mowers is people mowing the lawn with bare feet and chopping off their toes. But when purchasing a lawn mower do we have to sign something promising that we will never mow the lawn with bare feet - No!! What about all the people who do chemical peels at home, use microdermabrasian machines or administer their own Botox and fillers? Anyway, I'm rambling, but you get the picture. I don't think manufacturers should have to play "Mummy" - a good set of instructions and a warning against improper use should be enough. |
Hi Keliu,
I really don't think companies like to play "mummy" and you do make valid points. There are a lot of dangerous things that you can buy that don't have tests.
The difference is all of the non cosmetic devices you mentioned are not for use on the human body. Yes they can be dangerous but they have different purposes. It seems to be people and regulatory agencies are a lot more finicky when it comes to devices meant for the actual body.
Now when it comes to devices that are used on the body and face, there is also levels of whats acceptable (accoding to regulatory bodies) for people to do in the home and whats not. You mentioned Microdermabrasion, chemical peels, low level lasers, a TENS machine etc. Non of these devices are really meant to break the skin. I am sure people mix up some pretty strong chemical peels but I can tell you all of the reputable companies that sell chemical peels only supply very mild ones to the public. Microdermabrasion is never meant to make you bleed and thats the point were regulatory bodies get squeamish.
I dont know of anyone that is legally injecting botox or fillers at home, they might somehow get a hold of some but it definitely is not available for public use unless you can get something out of China or something like that.
The fact is when you have a device that is specifically made to penetrate the skin down to a level where you can bleed there is a lot more attention drawn to it. This is because of blood born diseases, infections and a host of other things that can happen when you are basically making yourself bleed on purpose.
I for one am also concerned about my face and dont want to mess it up and I also dont want the people that buy my products to mess their faces up, which is what can happen when you start going to deeper levels with needling. Fortunately the body tends to heal itself over time, so most problems fix themselves but I would rather a client have the required 3 days of downtime instead of 3 weeks for some mistake they made.
Here is an example of what I am talking about which perhaps could be mitigated by a simple test... I don't know how many of you suffer from Herpes (cold sores) but for someone that suffers from them they should be taking a course of valacyclovir (generic valtrex) 3 or 4 days before doing a needling treatment. If not they very much risk a break out. Ok its not life or death but its an unwanted side effect of doing more aggressive treatments. It could be avoided with a simple knowledge base test.
(By the way has anyone tried a needling pen on the lips? Great results for plumping them up and it dosen't really hurt
There are other points points like that, but the end conclusion is yes we need to cover ourselves if we are going to provide a system that "is meant" to make you bleed, but we also actually do care that our clients get the best and safest use out of our products. This is why we have only offered it for professional use up until now. Talking to you people on this has perhaps swayed our thinking that it may be possible to provide longer lengths to the public, but if we do we want to do that in a responsible and safe way... and yes also protect ourselves.
Yubs mentioned before about allowing allowing knowledgeable users to shape the test. This is essentially why I brought it up in this forum, I wanted you guys to tell us what you think, and what you would honestly hope people would know before they started needling their face. So please help me shape this test. |
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:41 pm |
JamesM wrote: |
Yubs mentioned before about allowing allowing knowledgeable users to shape the test. This is essentially why I brought it up in this forum, I wanted you guys to tell us what you think, and what you would honestly hope people would know before they started needling their face. So please help me shape this test. |
I think people need to know:
- the basics of the wound healing cascade at a high level, otherwise they really won't understand how the pen works
- basic skin layers so that they understand the depth of the needle penetration
- that different parts of the face are thicker than others, and may require different size needles
- that you can't just put just any product on after a treatment because you have breached the skin barrier and increase your risks of irritation, etc.
- that needling too frequently with long needles can cause damaging inflammation |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:18 am |
1) They should be familiar with basic guidelines for sterilization at home, i.e. - washing the hands and impacted skin, before and after with appropriate antibacterial/antimicrobial cleansers, perhaps wearing latex gloves while needling. The risks of cross contamination when sharing needle cartridges, etc.
2) Recommended needling intervals depending on needle length
3) Recommended topicals for use prior, during and after needling and their importance in collagen induction
4) Directions for using anesthetics. I see now more types are available online.
We'll probably come up with more as go we along here in this thread....wow, needling directly on the lips, first I've heard of plumping lips that way...sounds like it would be painful even with numbing cream.
BFG |
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:20 am |
They should also know the discount available for members of EDS...
BFG |
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:29 am |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
They should also know the discount available for members of EDS...
BFG |
Definitely!!! |
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:51 am |
Wait, on the lips or just on the vermilion border? And what depth? Interesting!
I think any home use needles should be single use so the contamination issue (of the needles) could be avoided. |
_________________ Esthetician working at a Med-spa. Love the Clarisonic! |
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:14 pm |
JamesM wrote: |
(By the way has anyone tried a needling pen on the lips? Great results for plumping them up and it dosen't really hurt
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what length needles please? thank you! |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:56 pm |
It would be good for potential customers to have an understanding of post procedural effects ie. possible swelling, redness, dry rough skin, and peeling (I peeled twice this last treatment). |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:04 pm |
JamesM wrote: |
(By the way has anyone tried a needling pen on the lips? Great results for plumping them up and it dosen't really hurt
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Needling definitely hurts my upper lip area, including the vermillion border - so I don't think I could do this.
BTW - very nice response to keliu's post. |
_________________ early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:45 pm |
Wondering what a 1mm needle results look like for a bleeder? This is me tonight after just a few seconds.
This was with the My-M at 1.0mm. We'll see what the damage looks like in the morning. |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:48 pm |
Yowzza! |
_________________ early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:16 pm |
Yikes! I think when the blood runs into your eye, it is time to shorten the depth of your needles. |
_________________ Esthetician working at a Med-spa. Love the Clarisonic! |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:18 pm |
LauraLizzie wrote: |
Yikes! I think when the blood runs into your eye, it is time to shorten the depth of your needles. |
Seriously, but I bleed like that no matter how short they are. I will try .5mm or .25mm next time. |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:27 pm |
bethany wrote: |
LauraLizzie wrote: |
Yikes! I think when the blood runs into your eye, it is time to shorten the depth of your needles. |
Seriously, but I bleed like that no matter how short they are. I will try .5mm or .25mm next time. |
Are you on any type of medication or supplements which could cause you to bleed like this? |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:28 pm |
LauraLizzie wrote: |
Yikes! I think when the blood runs into your eye, it is time to shorten the depth of your needles. |
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_________________ Esthetician working at a Med-spa. Love the Clarisonic! |
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