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Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:50 pm |
I would like to start a discussion not about any specific at home fraxel type laser device and I know that the ReAura and Tria are both different but I am curious about any possible negatives both long and short term of using these kinds of devices.
I have read just about every review for these online and the only really negative reviews I have found are from people with darker skin saying the devices have caused pigmentation issues.
However horror stories about all kinds of in office fraxel laser proceedures abound on the internet telling of the damage these lasers can do to your skin and as much as I really want one of these devices I am worried about what could go wrong.
I am 35 years old now and wanting to use the laser more for prevention and to treat minor issues with my skin which haven't responded to Retin A but would long term use of a laser of this kind eventually damage the skin?
I belive the laser works by damaging small sections of skin and stimulating new collagen however would this process also damage the physiology of the dermis such as oil glands etc and over time would this cause a problem?
Is fat loss a risk with these at home devices if used on a rolling basis through out the year over a number of years?
Dr Pickart is not a fan of fraxel and on his forum says that if the vellus hair follicles are damaged during laser treatment that in the long run this would be damaging to the skin and that 3 years post treatment skin looks worse then prior to the laser being done.
Obviously he has his own products to sell but as far as I am aware he is a respected authority on skin and antiaging.
I think much of these horror stories are relating to the much more powerful in office lasers and of course some people have wonderful lasting results while others have horrible problems so perhaps there is no way of knowing unless you try.
These devices are so tempting but I am worried about making more problems for myself and I would just like to open up a discussion on the possible risks of these at home lasers for anyone interested.
I look forward to your responses! |
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:19 pm |
Hi pandora, It is my personal belief that a lot of the results or lack of have to do with the strength and timetable of usage of the lasers. I am certainly no expert so these are just my own thoughts.
I don't think that any home laser machine has been around long enough to have a long term safety record. I am sure the companies that sell them did their own testing but they just haven't been on the market long enough to prove one way or the other.
On the other hand Fraxel and like machine have been around awhile. I have read about people having bad results and I am sure that's true but I think some of this has to do with who is doing the treatment (ie: do they have the setting right, are they properly trained etc) and how many treatments (how far apart etc) that people have. I am sure there is a percentage of the population that will not get results regardless.
I tend to think sometimes slower and weaker is better for the skin. The home lasers I think are based on the weakest Fraxel refine platform (at least ReAura is) Fraxel has 3 diffent strengths that are available at the Doctors office. Maybe by stimulating/damaging the skin at a much weaker strength it does not have to go through as much trauma and is able to heal better and the home treatments are done over a longer period of time so the skin maybe better suited to that timetable.
As far as fat loss maybe some of the stronger Fraxel machines, depending on your skin might heat the skin hot enough to have some kind of longer term fat loss (I don't know so I am not saying this is true) but I wouldn't think this would happen with a home machine as long as you didn't overuse it. I do think it is important to give the skin time to recover otherwise you can overload it and it will tend to breakdown.
I am not a big fan of Dr. P's so I take everything he says with a grain of salt. I do use some of his product sometimes but I don't consider him an authority on skin care.
I think that we will start to see more and more home gadgets hit the skincare market. Most will be based somewhat on what is being used in the medical field. I think you really have to do your research and then decide if you are comfortable enough to use the technology based on your own beliefs. I do think using the product correctly and safely does make a difference. I am kind of hedging my bets by using the ReAura and going to rotate with Dermarolling also. (I haven't started that yet) I am not sure if one is better then the other so I want to include both, obviously not at the same time just in case. |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:32 pm |
I was not interested in lasers until recently when I noticed some fine lines appearing and a couple of brown spots. At 57 I decided to look at the lasers. If I were in my thirties and wanting to be proactive I don't think I would start with lasers....low level microcurrent and LEDs would be a good choice. If you have some brown spots or fine lines in your 30's then that might warrant looking at lasers.Lasers are suppose to encourage collagen growth but so are a lot of more conservative approaches. |
_________________ female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:30 pm |
Thank you both for your replies. I know ultimately I will need to just make up my own mind if I should risk this. It is of course really difficult with so many unknown factors and when you hear about people having good inital results lasting even a couple of years and then finding their skin starts to show signs of damage it is scary! I am sure that a lot of the problems come from poor practice on the part of the practioner or even after care such as sun exposure etc.
I don't know a lot about Dr Pickart only about his copper peptides which many people love, I did use them but found they had little effect on my skin I assumed he was respected but I don't really know and of course he has an interest in pushing his products over laser treatments.
My main issue is course skin texture. I do have some fine lines around my eyes but no major lines (my skin is very thick) I really don't have any sun induced pigmentation as I have always avoided the sun and used sun screen and retin a for many years. I have tried many things to improve the texture of my skin which is sort of bumpy with large pores on my nose including various peels, mirodremabration, electrocautry, clarisonic, dermarolling, retinods, led lights (over the course of ten years approx) as well as regular skin care with masks etc and nothing has ever really achieved the results I am after. I 'd love that luminous peachy smooth skin that some women seem to have and that I never even had as a teenager, last time I had it was maybe when I was 9 years old!
I don't ever wear make up as I've never found anything that has hasn't make my skin texture look worse so I just don't bother.
I have been reading that people with similer course skin texture, bumps and large pores are seeing big improvements with devices such as the ReAura and Tria which makes me feel very keen to try them and of course perhaps conservative on going treatment at home with a device of this sort would hold off the need for further professional treatments later than if I didn't use the reaura. I wouldn't imagine I would use such a device as intensively as if I were a bit older.
Still with so little long term feedback about results I still have some doubts i.e. long term safety for me starting use at 35 is perhaps more of an issue then if I were starting at 55 for example.
However I do long so for that smooth skin and these lasers seem at las t an affordable way to achieve that! |
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:40 pm |
Hi pandora77, I am also your age and concenerd about the lasres and long term effects.. I think, at 35, we have time before we start using laser devices, we should know more about their side effects, if any, in few years.... I have just started using retin A which is supposed to refine skin texture.. do you use retin A?
Re Dr. Pickart and his statement re vellus hair, I also read that and I wanted to ask him what does he think about laser hair removal procedures or electrolysis as that for sure is going to kill/damage the hair follicles but I am not able to register for his website, not sure why... |
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:24 pm |
daler wrote: |
Hi pandora77, I am also your age and concenerd about the lasres and long term effects.. I think, at 35, we have time before we start using laser devices, we should know more about their side effects, if any, in few years.... I have just started using retin A which is supposed to refine skin texture.. do you use retin A?
Re Dr. Pickart and his statement re vellus hair, I also read that and I wanted to ask him what does he think about laser hair removal procedures or electrolysis as that for sure is going to kill/damage the hair follicles but I am not able to register for his website, not sure why... |
Hi Daler, I have been using prescription Retin A which I get on the NHS for about four years now. I love it and out of everything I have used it has helped my skin the most however it still doesn't really resolve my texture issues so while my skin is clear now it is still course and I really want to be able to refine its texture. I have tried many other things to little avail.
I am not a member of Dr Pickarts forum but could try to join to ask him. It is difficult to know if your getting straight information when people have "vested" interests. I do have a couple of small pock mark scars from where I had some enlarged oil glands removed with electrocautery which is basically the same thing as electrolysis, still rather the small scars then the bumps, also had some moles removed this way and was also scared but I prefer the slight scarring to the unsightly moles I used to have.
The issue of long term fraxel use is critical, apparently Kim Kardashian has it done on a regular basis and her skin looks perfect but she uses such a lot of make up that even on high resolution images it is hard to tell. Perhaps long term conservative use of a reaura / tria type device would be useful in slowing down the ageing process and perfecting the skin in younger women? However it seems plausible that their is only so much of this kind of damage that the skin can take before it started to break down?
I still don't know though as I am not getting the results I want any other way! I think for me it is less about wrinkles etc and more about getting closer to the texture of skin I really long for. |
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:39 pm |
I think Photoqueen and Keliu might be able to share some insight into your situation. Both have had experience with professional and home lasers.If they don't see this post you may try to sent a message to them... |
_________________ female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:47 pm |
Toby wrote: |
I think Photoqueen and Keliu might be able to share some insight into your situation. Both have had experience with professional and home lasers.If they don't see this post you may try to sent a message to them... |
Thanks Toby, I will do that later in the week if they haven't seen this post. I have read their posts on other threads with great interests and they seem very well informed and experianced with these things. |
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Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:34 am |
pandora77 wrote: |
Thank you both for your replies. I know ultimately I will need to just make up my own mind if I should risk this. It is of course really difficult with so many unknown factors and when you hear about people having good inital results lasting even a couple of years and then finding their skin starts to show signs of damage it is scary! I am sure that a lot of the problems come from poor practice on the part of the practioner or even after care such as sun exposure etc.
I don't know a lot about Dr Pickart only about his copper peptides which many people love, I did use them but found they had little effect on my skin I assumed he was respected but I don't really know and of course he has an interest in pushing his products over laser treatments.
My main issue is course skin texture. I do have some fine lines around my eyes but no major lines (my skin is very thick) I really don't have any sun induced pigmentation as I have always avoided the sun and used sun screen and retin a for many years. I have tried many things to improve the texture of my skin which is sort of bumpy with large pores on my nose including various peels, mirodremabration, electrocautry, clarisonic, dermarolling, retinods, led lights (over the course of ten years approx) as well as regular skin care with masks etc and nothing has ever really achieved the results I am after. I 'd love that luminous peachy smooth skin that some women seem to have and that I never even had as a teenager, last time I had it was maybe when I was 9 years old!
I don't ever wear make up as I've never found anything that has hasn't make my skin texture look worse so I just don't bother.
I have been reading that people with similer course skin texture, bumps and large pores are seeing big improvements with devices such as the ReAura and Tria which makes me feel very keen to try them and of course perhaps conservative on going treatment at home with a device of this sort would hold off the need for further professional treatments later than if I didn't use the reaura. I wouldn't imagine I would use such a device as intensively as if I were a bit older.
Still with so little long term feedback about results I still have some doubts i.e. long term safety for me starting use at 35 is perhaps more of an issue then if I were starting at 55 for example.
However I do long so for that smooth skin and these lasers seem at las t an affordable way to achieve that! |
Hi, Pandora.
Have you considered trying the oil cleansing method? That's the best thing I ever did for my skin, along with facial exercises. My skin looks and feels really nice and smooth now, with no bumps, flakiness or large pores. For me it took about two/three weeks to see the difference.
There's a long thread on EDS about OCM, and you can google it. Its main use seems to be for acne and greasy skin, but I don't use it for that reason. I began using it two years ago because my skin always felt tight after washing, and I had to load up on moisturiser, which made my skin feel greasy. Also, I don't like to put chemicals on my skin. OCM, using organic extra virgin olive oil, is all I use now for topical skincare (apart from a little coconut oil around my eyes). I place a hot (but not scalding) microfibre cloth over my face to open the pores, then I 'wash' my face with the olive oil, massaging it in gently. Finally, I use the hot cloth to blot the oil off, then I give my face a good splash with cold water. Feels marvellous afterwards! Be sure to use a clean cloth every time you do the OCM. I do it daily, before my shower.
Like you, I don't wear makeup. I'm not saying I wouldn't look better with it, but I've never been a makeup user and don't feel the need to start now. I'm much older than you, by the way. I'm happy with OCM and facial exercises. |
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Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:44 am |
I have seen it posted on different online forums that lasers, fraxel and others as well as IPL treatments can cause fat loss in some people. Something about it destroying the blood supply to the fatty tissues in the face. I even saw a discussion on a forum between a doctor and a 22- year old patient who had the procedure for acne scarring and felt her face had aged tremendously due to fat loss. But, that said, I highly doubt the home devices would be powerful enough to could cause that type of damage. But, it is a scary thought. |
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Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:26 pm |
aprile wrote: |
I have seen it posted on different online forums that lasers, fraxel and others as well as IPL treatments can cause fat loss in some people. Something about it destroying the blood supply to the fatty tissues in the face. I even saw a discussion on a forum between a doctor and a 22- year old patient who had the procedure for acne scarring and felt her face had aged tremendously due to fat loss. But, that said, I highly doubt the home devices would be powerful enough to could cause that type of damage. But, it is a scary thought. |
Well that is what I hope that the home use devices are not in the same catagory as the lasers that cause the damage, it is however an unnerving thought that this is a possibility.
Thank you for your input, I will see if I can find more specific info, research on the effect these lasers have on the blood supply to the skin and fatty tissues. If I turn anything up I will let you know! |
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Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:35 pm |
newera wrote: |
Hi, Pandora.
Have you considered trying the oil cleansing method? That's the best thing I ever did for my skin, along with facial exercises. My skin looks and feels really nice and smooth now, with no bumps, flakiness or large pores. For me it took about two/three weeks to see the difference.
There's a long thread on EDS about OCM, and you can google it. Its main use seems to be for acne and greasy skin, but I don't use it for that reason. I began using it two years ago because my skin always felt tight after washing, and I had to load up on moisturiser, which made my skin feel greasy. Also, I don't like to put chemicals on my skin. OCM, using organic extra virgin olive oil, is all I use now for topical skincare (apart from a little coconut oil around my eyes). I place a hot (but not scalding) microfibre cloth over my face to open the pores, then I 'wash' my face with the olive oil, massaging it in gently. Finally, I use the hot cloth to blot the oil off, then I give my face a good splash with cold water. Feels marvellous afterwards! Be sure to use a clean cloth every time you do the OCM. I do it daily, before my shower.
Like you, I don't wear makeup. I'm not saying I wouldn't look better with it, but I've never been a makeup user and don't feel the need to start now. I'm much older than you, by the way. I'm happy with OCM and facial exercises. |
Hi Newera,
I have tried various kinds / blends of the oil cleansing method in the past and I do still use it most evenings now however I do find that it also doesn't really help with my bumpy skin texture. Salicylic acid and Retin A do help with the bumps if used aggressively but doing so leaves me with skin that has an impaired barrier function so I feel I am constantly swinging between trying to strip the old and old skin off my face and trying to put the moisture back in.
I am aware that these home lasers may be yet another disappointment if I do choose to get one but I would like to find something to get a better skin texture that I could rely on. I just don't want to get burned again, been there before!
I do agree though that OCM is great. |
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Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:06 pm |
pandora77 wrote: |
I would like to start a discussion not about any specific at home fraxel type laser device and I know that the ReAura and Tria are both different but I am curious about any possible negatives both long and short term of using these kinds of devices.
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I have personally had 3 professional Fraxel treatments, and experienced intensive inflammation each time. Since ongoing inflammation contributes to collagen breakdown, I worry about people overusing the at home tools. However, if they are used responsibly (and that does not necessarily mean as often as recommended by the manufacturer), I do feel that they can be very beneficial. |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:49 pm |
To put things in perspective according to the Tria website.
The difference between a treatment at a Derm's office and the home laser is less dense creation of "damage tunnels" Pro-treatment is a range of 1,000 to 3,000 per sq. centimeter of skin while the SRL hits 40-130 cm.-a ratio of about 20:1. So quite a difference. However there is still inflammation with the home device so I agree with Bethany for the need to be responsible. I think to use on a continuous basis would be counter productive and likely cause problems down the road. |
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Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:53 pm |
brierrose wrote: |
To put things in perspective according to the Tria website.
The difference between a treatment at a Derm's office and the home laser is less dense creation of "damage tunnels" Pro-treatment is a range of 1,000 to 3,000 per sq. centimeter of skin while the SRL hits 40-130 cm.-a ratio of about 20:1. So quite a difference. However there is still inflammation with the home device so I agree with Bethany for the need to be responsible. I think to use on a continuous basis would be counter productive and likely cause problems down the road. |
Thanks for sharing those stats! |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:18 pm |
Bethany and Brierrose, thank you for your input on this it's really helpful. very useful to know the actually difference in the strength of the laser to that which is used by a dermatologist. I am thinking more seriously of getting one and just being a little more conservative in my use of the device then even the makers advise, of course I don't want to deprive myself of good results but better safe than sorry! |
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