Face exercise/gadget experts: sensitive skin advice please
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Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:07 pm

Hi,

I'd really value some advice from facial exercise veterans and gadget experts please!

I seem to respond to facial exercises by sagging. At first I thought it was because I was run down when I first tried (couple of years ago) but that may have been a red herring as it still seems to produce that effect when I've tried since despite good general health, lifestyle and nutrition.

My neck particularly now shows sagging and loose skin. However, when I was exercising I did visibly build up muscle at the same time, under my chin and on the cheeks, so it's a very confusing picture and I'm not sure if I'll ever understand what happened.

I'd like to do something about it as my skin didn't recover from the sag when I stopped the exercises, although it goes through fluctuations where it seems to "lift" and look younger, then sag again. I stopped about 18 months ago bar a couple of very brief and gentle attempts to restart, but which appeared to have a similar effect.

I've tracked nutrition, sleep, mood etc for ages and no correlation.

So.... Despite being a firm believer in facial exercises I need to try to repair the damage I caused.

My skin seems very sensitive now, lacking the ability to hold itself, and sags easily. I feel like it needs "rehabilitation".

I've been reading through the posts and I'm thinking of microcurrent or maybe LED but not sure.

If I responded so sensitively to facial exercise, would I necessarily respond in the same way to microcurrent or is it going to work in a different way? How about the repairing effects of LED?

I can access CACI treatment at a local and reputable salon. I never wanted to spend out like this but if it would help I think it would be worth it as the sag has affected my self esteem.

I'm in my mid 40s and now have the neck of a much older woman and a general tired appearance. Occasionally I'll have a good few days, unexpectedly, and my skin will appear to lift a bit, so there's something going on.

By the way, it's not a particular facial programme that caused this. I tried a few (not at the same time!) and followed instructions. Even with non resistance it seemed to have this effect.

All advice gratefully received!

free skin care · Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:01 pm

Hi Dotty,
I am new around here and to the world of serious skincare, but I wanted to share an idea with you...
This works very well for me and makes my face feel alive and happy. I have a shower attachment that has a massaging option and makes the water come out in a pretty intense and concentrated stream. After I am done with my shower I aim that stream of water at my face, carefully not to get into my eyes or ears. I use this to massage, my face, under my chin, neck and armpits (and even into my mouth to massage my gums). After I am done with this I have no puffiness left in my face and I feel really energized (much more than with a regular shower).
Probably not an answer you were looking for, but it's something you can probably try right away if you have a shower attachment. Who knows... maybe in the long run, this does tone the muscles and skin. It definitely gets my blood circulating.
Good luck.

Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:54 pm

Hi SnowFairy,
That sounds fabulous! I wish I had a similar shower head to try it for a simple but effective massage, unfortunately mine is just fixed overhead. Something to consider when I get the refit! I think you're onto something there.

free skin care · Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:25 pm

Dear Dotty,

Thanks for sharing.

Could you tell if you think the sag is due to the skin sagging, or the underlying muscle, if you pinch the skin does it bounce back, or does it sit there, do you drink enough water, are you on any drugs that could cause the condition such as steroids, have you ever been sunbather, can you give a bit more background info?

Hope I can help.

PQ

free skin care · Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:45 pm

Dotty,

PQ's questions are right on the mark. Hard to know what type of sag if we can't see you and know nothing about your daily habits. More info, please!

Christine

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:04 am

Hi Christine and PQ,
Sorry I realise I didn't post much, I was trying to avoid writing an essay but you do need background.
More info:
Looking at my parents I'd say I'm more predisposed to sag than wrinkles as I get older. However, up until three years ago I did look young for my age, albeit tired when mothering a young child. I have always looked after my skin, including neck, with gentle cleansing, moisturising, occasional exfoliation, but nothing extreme and no special ingredients. I have mainly used Avène products in recent years. I have sensitive skin, prone to redness, irritation, and in certain places, eczema. I've had eczema in the past on my hands mainly, but also neck and eyebrow area. I haven't had a major eczema break-out for a long time though. I did use topical creams for a while, as prescribed, but then turned to Chinese herbal medicine which worked really well and I'd never use a topical cream again now if it came back.
The reason I tried facial exercises (2.5 years ago) was I'd previously been through a period of some stress (house move) during which I'd had the vomiting bug a few times and also cystitis for which I took three courses of antibiotics. So I was run down and because of this I'd ended up looking gaunt and had slightly loose skin under my chin. I was also not sleeping well.
I worked hard to get myself back on track and actually consulted a nutritionist over a number of months to make sure my body was getting optimal nutrients. My sleep improved gradually and it's generally fine these days although I'm still a light sleeper. I got blood tests last year and nothing was amiss, one showed a slight dip in vit D and calcium but we got those levels back up again, and I was borderline rather than majorly deficient.
I generally feel well these days. I exercise moderately, I walk, my energy is usually fine.
I've always looked after myself in terms of food etc. I don't smoke, I'm not a big drinker. I've always taken care to drink plenty of water. I drink a little coffee/tea but mainly herbals. I eat mainly free-range/organic food, plenty of fruit and veg, and wholegrains.
I can understand if, doing the facial exercises initially after a period of stress to the body, that may have been too much. It's why I stopped after a few months. However, the couple of times I've tried since then, very gently, and less frequently than advised, I've still been concerned that I tend to sag.
In terms of the skin, as mentioned I'd noticed a little loose skin directly under my chin which showed if I turned my head - but probably only showed to me and if I hadn't seen myself in a home video I'd never have spotted it. I think it was due to tiredness and sudden weight loss after the vomiting bugs at the time! I didn't have any sagging muscle when I started. My eyelid skin has always tended to sag.
Since doing facial exercises, my neck muscle has been left sagging. I have two slight vertical bands showing beneath my chin. The skin there also feels much softer, looser, less resilient, almost a "stretched" look with excess skin.
But when I did the exercises I did also build muscle. In fact I noticed one day the muscle beneath my chin, the one that shows if you push your tongue to the roof of your mouth, was highly developed. My cheek muscles built too, nicely, and I overbuilt around my mouth.
The sagging hasn't improved since I stopped the exercises, nor the tired look. It does fluctuate though, so sometimes I'll look much better and be fine with my appearance, then it will get worse again. Like I said, I've honestly tracked everything in the past couple of years and can't see any correlations and I'm pretty flummoxed.
It's why I've wondered about a different approach with microcurrent, say, to help rehabilitate. It feels like my facial skin/muscle has lost its resilience.
Thanks for reading!

Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:27 am

Ok I've done the skin pinching test. I'm really nervous now about handling the skin under my chin!
Eyelids - take the longest to go back. Sluggish response.
Cheek - not too bad.
Side of neck - not too bad.
Under chin - takes longer.
However, it does all feel a bit squishy... Not firm, not taut.
Also to add: my forehead and eyes often feel tired these days. It's not "me" feeling tired, it's specifically the muscles on the forehead and eyes. I don't tense my forehead muscle and I tend not to "hold" my facial muscles. I'm not a frowner. I have good body awareness and have also practised yoga and dancing and know about good posture.
I do work at a computer though, so it's something I'm always aware of and am always trying to improve.

free skin care · Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:30 am

Hey Dotty

I am so sorry to read your posting, as I know it must be terrible what you are going through.

I’m not sure I understand the whole face exercises causes stress bit. I know at Flexeffects they say that, but its never really made sense to me. Its not like your lifting heavy weights, but I do know they say that it can be stressful, but I would have thought if you stopped that should have reversed itself.
Sudden weight loss for me is the thing that jumps out. When I got into facial exercises 10 years or so ago, it was because I lost a lot of weight rapidly (but through Slimming World at the time so it wasn’t like a crash diet etc). For me I had major sag from loosing the weight, and it took a while for my skin to catch up, and I think I read in Ageless that Lou thinks the same thing, so it might be worthwhile emailing her. I don’t know which programs you used, but think I remember reading on the Ageless thread that you were using that, so that’s my first thought.

I wonder why the sagging can fluctuate so much so. You may want to try Retin A, although be warned it doesn’t always look pretty before it gets better, but it sounds like its more to do with the skin than anything else.
If you are sensitive to facial exercises though, I don’t think there’s harm in trying microcurrent, but the only thing I would say is if your face responds badly straight away stop it. For me I did try a tua viso one time and started out fine with it, but for me it was a bit of a hassle as you have to be precise. I’m guessing you are going to a saloon and that’s probably the best as they can give you additional advice.

Tessie!

Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:15 am

Hey TM, thanks for chiming in. Good to hear from you.
Actually I haven't done Ageless, although I have read a lot of the thread. I did contact Louise a while back directly via her website to see if she could shed any light (and offered to buy the programme in return for advice) but didn't hear back. I may try her again. I know she advocates the "less is more" approach which is why I was interested in her advice.
I tried a non-resistance programme first, then one that is still considered one of the gentler ones but nonetheless does use resistance and handling the skin. I followed instructions with both, and took advice. There's no point naming them as I'm not here to cast doubts on the programmes - they work for many, and I still believe in them. The main thing is that I responded similarly in both cases.
More recently, after months of break, I tried a very gentle version of non-resistance exercises, which are generally recommended for maintenance. I think I started to see the sag getting worse and was too concerned to continue. However, it's difficult to tell now as I go through this fluctuation process of sagging and lifting.
Re weight loss - actually it wasn't much, it was more that kind you get after having a stomach bug - plus I wasn't sleeping well so did look a bit of a wreck at the time! My weight stabilised after that. The significance is that it was during this couple of months of looking gaunter that I noticed the loose skin in a home video. I'm not a dieter, I haven't yo-yo'd in weight.
And that happened almost three years ago so I should have recovered by now!
One thing I have wondered about is the antibiotics. Whether they depleted me in some way so that my body was challenged when I did the exercises. But that is pure speculation.
I appreciate your thoughts, thanks - and I may just try Louise again, nothing to lose.
Dx

free skin care · Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:01 pm

Dotty wrote:

Hi Christine and PQ,
Sorry I realise I didn't post much, I was trying to avoid writing an essay but you do need background.
More info:
Looking at my parents I'd say I'm more predisposed to sag than wrinkles as I get older. However, up until three years ago I did look young for my age, albeit tired when mothering a young child. I have always looked after my skin, including neck, with gentle cleansing, moisturising, occasional exfoliation, but nothing extreme and no special ingredients. I have mainly used Avène products in recent years. I have sensitive skin, prone to redness, irritation, and in certain places, eczema. I've had eczema in the past on my hands mainly, but also neck and eyebrow area. I haven't had a major eczema break-out for a long time though. I did use topical creams for a while, as prescribed, but then turned to Chinese herbal medicine which worked really well and I'd never use a topical cream again now if it came back.
The reason I tried facial exercises (2.5 years ago) was I'd previously been through a period of some stress (house move) during which I'd had the vomiting bug a few times and also cystitis for which I took three courses of antibiotics. So I was run down and because of this I'd ended up looking gaunt and had slightly loose skin under my chin. I was also not sleeping well.
I worked hard to get myself back on track and actually consulted a nutritionist over a number of months to make sure my body was getting optimal nutrients. My sleep improved gradually and it's generally fine these days although I'm still a light sleeper. I got blood tests last year and nothing was amiss, one showed a slight dip in vit D and calcium but we got those levels back up again, and I was borderline rather than majorly deficient.
I generally feel well these days. I exercise moderately, I walk, my energy is usually fine.
I've always looked after myself in terms of food etc. I don't smoke, I'm not a big drinker. I've always taken care to drink plenty of water. I drink a little coffee/tea but mainly herbals. I eat mainly free-range/organic food, plenty of fruit and veg, and wholegrains.
I can understand if, doing the facial exercises initially after a period of stress to the body, that may have been too much. It's why I stopped after a few months. However, the couple of times I've tried since then, very gently, and less frequently than advised, I've still been concerned that I tend to sag.
In terms of the skin, as mentioned I'd noticed a little loose skin directly under my chin which showed if I turned my head - but probably only showed to me and if I hadn't seen myself in a home video I'd never have spotted it. I think it was due to tiredness and sudden weight loss after the vomiting bugs at the time! I didn't have any sagging muscle when I started. My eyelid skin has always tended to sag.
Since doing facial exercises, my neck muscle has been left sagging. I have two slight vertical bands showing beneath my chin. The skin there also feels much softer, looser, less resilient, almost a "stretched" look with excess skin.
But when I did the exercises I did also build muscle. In fact I noticed one day the muscle beneath my chin, the one that shows if you push your tongue to the roof of your mouth, was highly developed. My cheek muscles built too, nicely, and I overbuilt around my mouth.
The sagging hasn't improved since I stopped the exercises, nor the tired look. It does fluctuate though, so sometimes I'll look much better and be fine with my appearance, then it will get worse again. Like I said, I've honestly tracked everything in the past couple of years and can't see any correlations and I'm pretty flummoxed.
It's why I've wondered about a different approach with microcurrent, say, to help rehabilitate. It feels like my facial skin/muscle has lost its resilience.
Thanks for reading!

Hi Dotty,

I am really sorry to hear you are having problems.

I have had a good read and reflected on your situation, I can't see anything obvious that would be causing the sag.

Firstly, I would get a professional opinion by someone that could look at your skin, I would choose a someone who can do some proper skin analysis, secondly I would avoid using anything that might change the structure of your skin, or anything abrasive until you have a specialists opinion. Avene would be my suggestion for products that would be kind to your skin and I wouldn't try anything else until you have a clearer idea of what is happening. I would even avoid microcurrent.

I am sorry I can't suggest anything else, but you are doing all the right things, so I am not sure why your skin has changed so much over the last three years.

Best wishes

PQ

free skin care · Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:21 pm

Dotty - I just wanted to ask one more thing... I know you are still very young (mid 40's) but I was wondering if you've noticed any hormonal changes with-in the last 3 years. How is your monthly cycle? Is everything still regular or have there been any changes?
I see a clinical nutritionist from time to time because I have Celiac but we discuss all sorts of issues I might be having. I am 38 now but I've been having some weird symptoms so he suggested I start using a natural progesterone cream. He said that while balancing the hormones it would also help with skin elasticity.
Maybe you should look into it and do some research. See if it's something that might be helpful to you.
Best of luck.

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:08 am

SnowFairy wrote:

Dotty - I just wanted to ask one more thing... I know you are still very young (mid 40's) but I was wondering if you've noticed any hormonal changes with-in the last 3 years. How is your monthly cycle? Is everything still regular or have there been any changes?
I see a clinical nutritionist from time to time because I have Celiac but we discuss all sorts of issues I might be having. I am 38 now but I've been having some weird symptoms so he suggested I start using a natural progesterone cream. He said that while balancing the hormones it would also help with skin elasticity.
Maybe you should look into it and do some research. See if it's something that might be helpful to you.
Best of luck.

I think I'm going into pre-menopause now but at the time this all started my periods were actually fairly regular - I have wondered about hormones - I may revisit the doctor to see what he thinks, thanks SnowFairy

PQ: thanks for your thoughts. I'm not intending to use anything strong, topically, I'll stick to my Avène products, my instinct is to use creams that are as neutral as possible. I'm not concerned about ageing skin in terms of wrinkles or marks, it's the sagging I need to address.

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:12 am

One thing I should add: my face often feels like it needs a darn good massage! You know that feeling you can get in your shoulders, for example, so you give them a good rub, or book a massage. Well that's how I feel with my face. I hold off doing it though because I'm worried about handling the skin too much.

free skin care · Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:09 am

Dotty wrote:

One thing I should add: my face often feels like it needs a darn good massage! You know that feeling you can get in your shoulders, for example, so you give them a good rub, or book a massage. Well that's how I feel with my face. I hold off doing it though because I'm worried about handling the skin too much.

Hi Dotty, you may want to look at this link for something that is a good massage for your face. It also helps "open up" the face from repetitive stress motions. I did it for awhile but found it too time consuming but I did like it when I found time for it.

http://yamunabodyrolling.com/store/body_focus/face/?show_item=36

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=42039&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

free skin care · Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:06 pm

Hi Dotty - I wanted to share something else with you that has made a huge difference to me in the past 2 years. When I look at old photos of me I feel that I look 10 years younger now than I did 2 years ago. This is a completely different approach and you don't even need to touch your face. About two years ago I started lifting very heavy weights and doing high intensity interval training. The workouts were so intense but I felt really good in such a short time period that it is easy to stick with it. I was wondering why I felt so good and had so much energy so I started doing some research. I was able to learn that during anaerobic workouts our bodies produce human growth hormone. HGH is what helps children grow, but us adults need it to maintain our good health and vitality. A decrease in HGH also means a decrease in immune function, a decrease in physical fitness and a decrease in estrogen and androgen (a balance of both hormones is needed for healthy skin). So by doing these workouts I lost weight and inches but I also feel that the quality and health of my skin has improved greatly. Although I had a double chin and jowls before I lost the weight, I don't have them anymore and I don't have any slack skin in their place. My skin feels more comfortable and healthier. It's difficult to explain, but it just functions better. So, this is something that you might think about. I've only seen good positive results.
Another thing I wanted to mention is if you've ever considered a candida overgrowth. Some doctors don't believe it is a real condition but I feel that it is and it can have an impact on your skin.
Lastly regarding the massage - what if you alternated hot and cold towels on your face. I know you don't want to handle your skin, but the hot and cold would increase circulation and maybe make your face feel better and not so tense.
That's it for now. Just throwing out some ideas....

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:00 pm

CookieD: love the look of the rolling massage. I worry it will be too strong for now but it's an interesting website and something I'll bear in mind so thanks for the link.

SnowFairy: funnily enough my acupuncturist had suggested focusing on strength training, I have actually started recently. I am using the machines at the gym and aim to work up gradually. I have a slight tendency to over-tire with strenuous exercise so I have to find the right level. Instinctively it feels like the right thing to do. I'm glad it's had such a positive effect for you.

free skin care · Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:05 am

That's good Dotty. Definitely stick with the strength training. Take your time but also push yourself a little more every time. You might also consider adding some HIIT training. If you use the treadmill at the gym you can mix in some sprints with your walking. I have read that during sprinting your skin and breast tissue don't bounce up and down so much because of the fast forward motion of your body (or something like that) - in case you were worried about that having an impact on your skin.
Good luck and hopefully you can sort out your sensitive sagging skin issue.

free skin care · Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:58 am

Hi Dotty. I was looking for something else today but I ran into this article and it made me think of you. You might want to read it.

http://www.juliahart.co.uk/skin-news/release-your-facial-tension/

Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:29 am

SnowFairy I really appreciate your helpful comments, thank you!

The rose quartz roller featured in that link looks lovely, what a nice idea.

I'm not going to try anything on my face until I've had specialist advice, but it's all good to bear in mind.

free skin care · Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:41 pm

Hi snowfairy,

u meant u look 10 yrs younger by doing weight training? will doing that make u look younger?

i am currently working out with light weights. how does that tone your face muscles to prevent sagging? i am using 0.5kg.

free skin care · Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:19 pm

SnowFairy wrote:

Hi Dotty. I was looking for something else today but I ran into this article and it made me think of you. You might want to read it.

http://www.juliahart.co.uk/skin-news/release-your-facial-tension/

Hi SnowFairy, something similar ( it's not rose quartz) but cheaper: http://www.amazon.com/Jade-Roller-Massager-Rejuvenates-Face/dp/B0051ZHQEC/ref=pd_sim_bt_6

and way cheaper: http://www.amazon.com/Roller-Facial-Slimming-Massager-Beauty/dp/B009DZKNHI/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hpc_8

free skin care · Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:59 am

I've had good results with the Tua Trend so that's an option if the facial exercises don't work for you. It's time consuming, but then all the gadgets are.

LED is more for sun damage. If you have $$ you could get a Lightstim and the Ageless Secret Gold. I haven't used these but they do seem to produce a visible difference from what I've seen of the few You Tube reviews online.

Look at your diet also. If you have calorie restricted or exercised a lot, that could be a factor. In your mid 40s, it's mostly internal clock-related (eg menopause), but you can still look and feel younger with a few tweaks. I've gotten a lot of insight from reading a biologist named Ray Peat. He has a following online; if you can't read his articles, there are blogs like Danny Roddy, Matt Stone 180 Degree Health, etc.

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:40 am

Thanks Gretchen. I'm going to stay clear of all devices and treatments for now, except microcurrent, which I think I'm going to try really soon for the first time. Hormones are fairly steady, diet pretty good, etc. I've kept a diary for two years to try and find causes but have come up blank!

free skin care · Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:59 am

Dotty wrote:

Thanks Gretchen. I'm going to stay clear of all devices and treatments for now, except microcurrent, which I think I'm going to try really soon for the first time. Hormones are fairly steady, diet pretty good, etc. I've kept a diary for two years to try and find causes but have come up blank!

Hi Dotty,
I posted this on the other thread as well, but you should drink a lot of water when using microcurrent. I drink 20 oz. before treatment and then 2-3 more 20 oz. bottles a day. This will keep your skin looking nice and plump... and YES Ageless Secret is an amazing product. I have used it with other devices, but by far it is most effective with the microcurrent. You can try it for 30 days and if you don't like it, it's free. As I understand it - Ageless products work to increase the electrical activity in the skin...microcurrent increases the galvanic response in the skin. The two work together beautifully to restore lost fullness and create more lift. I think maybe better than facial exercise, which I have been a long-time supporter of. I still use facial exercises, but have cut down significantly to restore more fullness to my face rather than having too sculpted a look. HTH, Aprile Very Happy

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