Ethics & Sales
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free skin care · Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:04 pm

I would so much hope that the majority of posters and lurkers are here because they want information, because they want to share their opinions and experiences, warn others for adverse reactions they have experienced, share the solutions they have found for their troubles.

Cosmetics is a multi billion business. We all have our role to play in that, be it as high end buyers or as low end DIY-ers. Somehow our combined critical minds, experience, logic, knowledge etc. should get us somewhere if we could just be honest or able to sift out the shills and take whatever information can be of use and leave the rest.

free skin care · Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:14 pm

Yubs, if you left for a certain reason and came back years later to find the same thing, I wouldn't be expecting any future miracle changes, lol.

While I felt your response above was grossly inaccurate, it isn't worth my time to reply with an equally lengthy post disputing things since I know it won't make any difference. So let's just agree to disagree and move on.

free skin care · Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:30 pm

bethany wrote:

Yubs, if you left for a certain reason and came back years later to find the same thing, I wouldn't be expecting any future miracle changes, lol.

While I felt your response above was grossly inaccurate, it isn't worth my time to reply with an equally lengthy post disputing things since I know it won't make any difference. So let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Honestly, it was more of a hope than an expectation, really.

But as for my attitude: my experience has been that bringing things out into the light sometimes provokes change. I see a lot in the dynamics that go on here that IMHO is "in the dark" (i.e., largely unexamined). Every relationship, be it a one-on-one, or a group (like a forum or workplace) benefits from bringing dysfunctional patterns out into the light so participants can examine their behavior. EDS would be a friendlier place to long-time members and lurkers alike if we all did that.

For my part I agree to disagree, and want to move on. I hope that we can exchange ideas again in the future. I've gotten a lot out of my short time here this go round, and hope at some point to have something more substantial to contribute.

free skin care · Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:42 pm

Just poked in today...

Sheeshka, what happened here??

To tap-dance abit around some of it, first -

Yubs wrote:

Kath91...sorry for misreading the whole post!

Yubs, apology accepted. Btw, I don't live in a glass house (would be interesting, though) and my DH does think I spend too much money. Very Happy

Yubs wrote:

...The post was snarky and full of insinuation and contributed nothing to the duscussion...

Bethany's post did not insinuate anything but just relayed facts that during her on line research she came upon some questionable postings. Furthermore, she DID contribute to the discussion (i.e. my post) re the lack of ethics in the manipulation of social networks.

If you read this is again where she states her point again (although I initially understood clearly her original post) re the matter at hand - given, again, the context of my post:

bethany wrote:

BTW, my point in mentioning that is that we really can't trust in anything we see online these days. Celebs and companies buy followers as mentioned above, and companies also negotiate for positive product reviews. Someone shared an email with me recently where the company specifically asked for a positive review in exchange for a discount...this happens all the time.

Of course someone that is very enthusiastic about a product may go leave positive reviews on 5+ different sites, but the likelihood of that is very slim.

I think bethany is tactful enough not to want to or have to name names but as her post specifies she only wanted to share the fact that even an EDS member can resort to online marketing shenanigans. IMO, esp for me, its a valuable rule of thumb to be mindful of as I navigate through this Forum. (see also Lotusesther's post above) Adding, even if I did have names/identity of shills, I don't have the innate grandiosity to reveal that information publicly.

Yubs wrote:

...I say if you're not going to make it clear then drop it and move on...

Yubs wrote:

...You're just annoyed that I called out on something you wrote, or that I'm not arguing for the right "side"...

Yubs, isn't the right side *integrity* in ethics & sales?

Yubs wrote:

I have not heard nothing but insinuation and innuendo around here regarding ethics and sales and whatnot...

errr...Yubs, this thread is entitled Ethics & Sales.
Anyway, maybe now that you've got *it* all out of your system about it *around here*, (despite in doing so, unfortunately and sadly, used bethany as a scapegoat), you'll still be participating around this Forum.

@bethany, I've not seen you compromise your integrity here or elsewhere (for that matter), please, keep that wonderful information you produce/possess flowing.

free skin care · Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:05 am

Ok, this is kind of a bummer about the reviews of people that we think are just regular people, actually being financially motivated. Confused

The tension created by being scammed and maybe not knowing who your friends are, looks like its causing bickering.

The main thing is that we in this thread are not manipulating each other for financial gain, and maybe the question to address is: what action do we take if or when we become aware of an uncomfortable truth such as bethany outlined.

I dont quite know what I would do if I found out what bethany found out..I certainly would want to share the information, and it would need to be done with care.

free skin care · Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:32 am

I'm hoping we can all just move on and stay on our toes. This has happened a few times here and it won't be the last time.

free skin care · Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:41 pm

Lord have mercy!

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:34 am

Well, that's awfully discouraging to read.
What makes one online forum draw more readers than another? ...the quality of the discussion.
It's really unfortunate. When people begin to lose confidence in what they can gain from a site, they go elsewhere...when the most knowledgeable and helpful posters leave, the rest beat feet and then the forum dies...I have seen it time and again. Because there are no disclosure rules here, the only way I know of gaining confidence in a poster's writing is to watch their writing styles and posting patterns...i.e. - do they only show up to tout one product, never showing up on other threads? do they ask questions? are they knowleageable about skincare in general? do they "cheerlead" one brand over others, over again?...this helps me to focus on the valuable posters and ignore the rest. Over time, I find myself only clicking on certain names..

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:44 pm

I notice that the posts which resulted in Kassy's response of "Lord have mercy" have now been removed. So I'll just echo Kassy, "Lord have mercy!"

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:53 pm

what action do we take?

In the past, I've seen posters here tout their great results and post photos of themselves - all while at the same time, appearing in online advertisements for the same products. I pointed out this out to one particular poster - that she should make her affiliations clear, but she continues to post here without doing so...so there you go.

Perhaps if we find this out, we can share the info privately or offline. I am willing to do so.

BFG

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:05 pm

BFG, I think if you find out about a conflict of interest with a member on EDS you should report it to the mods and let them deal with it.

ETA: I am concerned that I see whole post disappearing from EDS on a much regular basis lately.

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:28 pm

I would report anything that needs to be reported to Havana8....I am sure it will be confidential.

free skin care · Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:20 am

Keliu wrote:

I notice that the posts which resulted in Kassy's response of "Lord have mercy" have now been removed. So I'll just echo Kassy, "Lord have mercy!"

Unless something is wrong with my browser window, Kassy's response of "Lord have mercy" came LONG AFTER the posts to which Keliu likely refers were deleted. Kassy made her remark on Sunday the 25th; the other controversial posts were deleted early/middle of last week (around the 21st, 22nd, or 23rd). As the etiology of the tangential controversy (not Ethics and sales) in this thread, I think it's safe for me to say that. I was "heavily moderated" in this thread.

Also have to say that although I don't always agree with the mods (like in the instance of this thread and others where I was moderated), after some thought I do think they do try to do a good job of keeping the forum going without squelching freedom of speech. It's a fine line between "editorial fascism" and letting a discussion board descend into anarchy because of a couple of opposing viewpoints (one of my jobs was to moderate a forum for a while so I know) and it's unfortunate that some adults here don't seem to understand that freedom of speech extends to people who say things they don't necessarily like or want to hear, as much as it extends to their views and opinions. Or even that if moderation were more draconian here, as they seem to want, that their behavior might actually put them on the wrong side of it. Does anyone really think EDS needs heavy moderation like at Skin Bio or Sarah Vaughter's forum?

I also think if it weren't for the fairly even-handed moderation this forum would quickly turn into an echo chamber where opinions and points that go against the grain of a handful of strong posters who have more time and energy to devote to forum dynamics than others would quickly be overshouted and overwhelmed. While that would probably suit this handful of people, it's good for the overall health of the forum that it doesn't happen.

FWIW, the "handful" changes periodically. It's not always the same handful...but the phenomenon seems to be peculiar to all forums that are not well moderated.

We should all also remember that this forum is supported by *a business*. Someone is paying for this bandwidth we use so freely, and especially those who do not buy products regularly from EDS should not complain about how this for-profit business uses the bandwidth they pay for us to use. EDS doesn't sell half the stuff we discuss here, so they're essentially paying for us to play. Even if they get a tax write-off to support this forum, this forum is also huge, so it's no inconsiderable expense and it's unlikely they're able to write off all of it. In light of that, if anyone *really* wants an echo chamber for only opinions and people they think are "correct", they should probably consider starting their own forum and moderating as they see fit. It's a big hassle and expense, and it's not easy to moderate well enough to suit a large group of people as has been done here, which is why so many forums are short-lived. Participation goes down because people get sick of the lack of diversity. But if the diversity of opinion here is that distressing, and people can't see the larger view of why the diversity shouldn't be squelched, it's always an option.

free skin care · Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:52 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

what action do we take?

In the past, I've seen posters here tout their great results and post photos of themselves - all while at the same time, appearing in online advertisements for the same products. I pointed out this out to one particular poster - that she should make her affiliations clear, but she continues to post here without doing so...so there you go.

Perhaps if we find this out, we can share the info privately or offline. I am willing to do so.

BFG

CookieD wrote:

BFG, I think if you find out about a conflict of interest with a member on EDS you should report it to the mods and let them deal with it.

ETA: I am concerned that I see whole post disappearing from EDS on a much regular basis lately.

CookieD I will tell you whom Barefootgirl is referring to: It is I. All this talk about people should come clean and whatnot is hot air because what she wants is a conspiracy theory or drama, not the truth. I know this because she has gotten the truth before but she still wants to beat this topic into a pulp.

Not only has she come out and asked me the question directly (and you will see from her posts below that the beating about the bush she was doing with the last post above is clearly about me) but I also answered her honestly. Yet she continues to insist that I need to come clean. So clearly she doesn't want the truth. She just wants to stir trouble where none exists. Let me show you what I mean.

For those who don't know, hooded (upper) eyelids run in my family (not under eye bags like someone once tried to twist my words to imply). I used to have hooded eyelids. I didn't think there was anything wrong with them and when I started face exercises, I didn't do them to change my eyes. But over the years, my eyes changed and stopped being hooded. So when I saw a discussion about an upper eyelid lift, I joined the discussion to offer an alternative in case someone was interested--just as I would hope someone would share tips they know with me if they saw me looking for a solution to a problem. It's what I do. If you look for my posts in any forum I have been a part of, what I do 90% of the time I'm posting is share information. I do this for free. I've even been asked to write a book or start a blog several times but I've not been interested.

Anyway, this is the link to the discussion in which BFG addressed this with me, if anyone is interested in reading the whole thing http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=44406, otherwise I will put out the relevant exchange between me and Barefootgirl below. (BTW when she started these string of threads in The Lounge talking about ethics and full exposure and whatnot, I wondered if this was directed at me because I had a moment of deja vu, but I dismissed it since we'd already been through this and I refused to believe she'd be this messy.)

So I was very active in that thread and because I find it hard to believe people when they make crazy claims without showing receipts, I make a point of backing up whatever I claim I make with evidence; so I posted photos of my family's eyes and mine before face exercises so people could see the change face exercises have made to my eyes (genetics defied) and hopefully be encouraged. I also posted results other people have had. My results by the way I got not with the program I do today (the one BFG seems to have an issue with) but with a previous program I did for 15 years starting in 1990.

This is where she started her indirect accusations:

Barefootgirl wrote:

I've been coming to this wonderful forum for several years now.

It's been my experience that the only time we ever see controversy here is when we get tangled up with people who have a financial interest in the products or procedures they are touting.

Other forums require disclosure of such. I don't know why EDS doesn't. Keeping shills around reduces the value and relevance of the forum.

It seems legitimate for a poster to come here to discuss or show photos of something they've done that worked for him/her...but when you start speaking for the success of others who aren't here - your motives are suspicious.

BFG

BTW, in that thread, I posted the results of many people who do face exercises. Not just of those who do Carolyn's Facial Fitness program, which is the program I do now, but rather I posted many other programs' results because my point was to show that face exercises can achieve results similar to getting cosmetic work done. I don't understand how that makes my motives suspicious, or is she claiming I'm on every face exercise program's payroll? Rolling Eyes

I don't know about the rest of you but seeing the results of one person tells me nothing. How do I know that person doesn't just have good genes? To me seeing many other examples of results gives credence to what's being shared and because I like to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, I don't give half info if I have more. I share EVERYTHING I can think of in order to leave no stone unturned. If BFG prefers that folks just believe her testament alone w/o proof, then she can knock herself with that. I prefer to do things differently and it doesn't make me suspicious. I'd think making claims of wonderful results w/o any proof and then adding a disclaimer that you aren't getting paid to tell us so when no one asked you looks way fishier to me (along the lines of "She doth protest too much!"). But anyway, I guess we all think differently.

So anyway, my response to her post:

Nonie aka AD wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

I've been coming to this wonderful forum for several years now.

It's been my experience that the only time we ever see controversy here is when we get tangled up with people who have a financial interest in the products or procedures they are touting.

Other forums require disclosure of such. I don't know why EDS doesn't. Keeping shills around reduces the value and relevance of the forum.

It seems legitimate for a poster to come here to discuss or show photos of something they've done that worked for him/her...but when you start speaking for the success of others who aren't here - your motives are suspicious.

BFG

LOL BFG since I am the one who's given examples of people who are not here guess it is I you are suspicious of eh? Funny the logic you use. I have used enough of my photos, more than I have ever posted elsewhere on this forum as proof of what I share. It just so happens that I am not the only one and unlike some people who may just love to toot their own horn and who are satisfied by just one story, I prefer more evidence than that. So far in this discussion my age and the fact that I started faced exercises early has been given as the reason I have had success. How else could I show that to be inaccurate without finding photos that fit the bill? I can't use mine. They have been deemed unhelpful, hello?

As for monetary gain, I guess you must know a bunch of selfish people who would not do anything unless there was something in it for them moneywise or people who aren't passionate about their beliefs. Or is it that no one has ever done something so good for you that you wanted to give them a review just for the heck of it? I mean, heck, what sort of people do you hang around?

I happen to spend hours on forums sharing stuff I know about hair, skin, face exercises, health, cats, etc and I don't get a cent for it. I have been a member one forum since 2003 and I think I have only started a handful of threads in that forum. The rest of the time I spend there is done to help people. When I come to this forum I browse through to see if there is a topic for which I can share useful info. And I never share anything I am not sure about. So forgive me for actually caring enough to put up with all I have been dealt since I joined EDS (not in this thread) in order to help others. I don't gain anything from sharing what I share. I don't even do Eva's program or Deb's but I talk about them because they help me explain what I am sharing at that time.

So quit making assumptions about people you don't know. Coz whether you wanna believe it or not, there are people with hearts big enough to give their all for free and to fight for what they believe with all they've got. Smile

She then came straight out and asked the question that was eating at her and you can see my response to her:

Nonie aka AD wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Nonie,

Yes or No answer, please if you want to back up your helpfulness claim.

Do you derive ANY financial gain from the regimen you suggest?

Thank you, bfg

I just answered that in my last post, so I suggest you read that and get your answer there.

You're welcome. Smile

Because she either didn't read my long post or didn't care to know the truth, she accused me of not answering her--a misconception that was also corrected by another poster:

Nonie aka AD wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Your un-answer is very telling.

I think we know the truth.

bfg

Bwahahahahaha! Bad Grin

Un-answer my foot. OK, here's your answer to the redundant question--redundant since I had JUST talked about that before you asked: NO I do not get any monetary gain for any of the face exercise programs I recommend. Razz

You would just love it, wouldn't you, if I were getting paid huh? Give you something to get all smug about.

Already someone suggested I was a specialist. WRONG! You suggest I'm getting paid. WRONG!

Can't understand my sort eh? Don't know how anyone could care so much about strangers to put out so much of themselves for nothing eh? Love it when folks can't figure me out. Hee hee hee!

BTW, my friends have asked me why I don't blog or have Youtube vids since I have so much to share. Some have even suggested I write a book or start my own program. Nah! Haven't got the time or patience for any of that. Don't think I'd be able to keep it up. I love forums coz I can post when I want and not have to feel the pressure to keep up with posts unless I want to.

Yes, BFG, I don't just work at being beautiful on the outside; I do try to be beautiful on the inside too. And selfless giving is part of that effort. Wink

Firefox7275 wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Your un-answer is very telling.

I think we know the truth.

bfg

How is this an un-answer?
"I happen to spend hours on forums sharing stuff I know about hair, skin, face exercises, health, cats, etc and I don't get a cent for it."

Now after both I and Firefox7275 clarified for her, she thanked me and I assumed we'd put this nonsense to rest so never returned to the discussion:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Thank you Nonie for the clarification, it is good to read that in writing.

It sends off signals when a particular poster consistently shows up to tout a particular product or service, but rarely participates otherwise in the forum or never or rarely discusses other products/procedures, etc.

I just posted the case of the Lifestyle Lift above if you are interested in reading the problems there.

bfg

Until today, I didn't realize that she had gone back and posted something else. If I didn't know better, I'd swear she was writhing with jealous or just has it in for me or something--or wait, maybe it is she who is getting paid to pick on me? 8-[quote="Barefootgirl"]who'd be fattening her pockets for this sort of thing. Bad Grin

Barefootgirl wrote:

I just recalled something else. Nonie appears in advertisements for at least one seller of facial exercise that I am aware of, so there is a built-in bias.

In a community such as this one, where trust should be paramount, it would seem the ethical thing to do for anyone here who continually posts consistently positive (or even negative) reviews to disclose their affiliations up front.

The Real Self forum found itself in a jam over this very issue.

bfg

What person on this forum doesn't share positive results they get from a product they use? And wouldn't anyone be partial to something they themselves like because of how well it works for them? What makes her post laughable is the fact that while I may be biased toward a program that saved my face when I thought I was doomed after another one messed it up and which continues to deliver results even today, I have praised face exercises of not only that one program. So exactly what is her point? And why shouldn't I be biased toward something that has worked so well for me? I don't see her fussing over the bias other people have over programs they like. What about the bias she has shown for things that worked for her? Does that bias make her belief in them poppycock? So I love CFF so much that I'm willing to put my face where my words are because unlike many people, I'm not exaggerating or telling lies it makes me suspicious? Exactly what is her problem? I thought the theme of this thread was people who get paid to give false claims about a product. So if I'm not just giving praise but actually showing you that it does what I say it does...that makes me suspicious? And her post about her wonderful results with no evidence is supposed to be less suspicious? And just because she says she isn't getting paid we're supposed to believe her? See how crazy this can get? Laughing

And to answer her point about me not participating in other discussions, I don't go into discussions of things I don't care about or plan on using. I don't even know what actives are and don't use many anti-aging products. I go into discussions that cover things I know or care for. So there!

If you go to the Lounge, you will see a thread about thighs in which I mention programs I have used to shape my body and I share photos too. I am biased toward those programs because they worked for me. Doesn't mean I am getting paid for gushing about them. I have turned so many people to the things that have worked for me because unlike many people who just talk but cannot back up their words with proof, I don't sing praises of anything for which I cannot show you what it has done for me. And it just so happens, my recommendations have worked for people. Also in the Lounge you will see that when Fibolgbred told me about EVOO being good for nails and I tried it, I returned to share the results I got from following her advice even giving her credit (and no she didn't pay me for that either).

In the skin forum I posted my beautiful nails that grew from stubs to lovely almost 1/2 inch tips and I shared the product that got me those results. And no I don't get paid by the guys who make the product even though I have sang its praises all over the place and turned people onto it. Oh and I have shown how well Vaseline works for my hands and argued FOR Vaseline, and again, I don't have stocks with Petrolatum companies.

Now since you bring up my advertising for CFF, let me tell you why I am on the website. First of all, I was so grateful for the help I got from Carolyn in getting my face back to how it used to be, after it had been ruined by another program, that it was the least I could do. And secondly, just like I do with every other success I experience, I wanted to show people proof of what face exercises can do and thus show anyone who has had a bad experience with face exercises, that the horrible changes do not have to be permanent, and what better place to do it that on the website of the program to which I owe my success. Thirdly, I finally got the chance to tell my story after so many lies had been told about me and I wanted the truth to be known and had a platform to do so. And it was I who volunteered my photos to Carolyn. I am shocked that you cannot believe that people can be so thankful to someone that they freely offer reviews even pictorial ones. And FYI, I will continue to support Carolyn with any updates I may have to share because she has given me a gift I can never afford to pay back. Heck if anything I should be paying her for using her bandwidth coz I am deeply and will forever be indebted to her.

So wait a minute, are you BFG saying that all other websites PAY their before/after models? That sounds so shady to me. If anything it would seem to imply that the product doesn't work that well so folks are being coerced to pretend they do. Is that why you are obsessed with there being a monetary gain? Sorry to disappoint you yet again. I'm not greedy like that and my photos are up there with my permission for free.

So Barefootgirl you can stop starting any more parallel threads trying to bait me. If your life is filled with people who only do stuff for pay, I am not that sort, which might be why I'm not in your life. I have been so blessed in my life that paying forward is something I get pleasure from doing and that comes naturally. If you go towww.longhaircareforum.com (that's the forum I mentioned in a previous discussion) and do a search for Nonie's posts you will see that this is the sort of person I am. I am not selfish with information and if something I know can help someone, you can bet your bottom dollar I will share it. I was on that forum for exactly 10 years July 1, 2003 to June 30, 2013 and have over 23,625 posts and very few of them are of me asking questions. Most of them have me sharing information and usually with photos to back up the info. And in many of those posts, I'm raving about a product that I like because it worked for me and for which I don't get paid.

So please do not confuse me with whatever crooked or greedy people you know. I happen to like being happy and seeing other people happy and if I see something worthy of praise, you can bet your bottom dollar I will sing its praises, including posting photos even if that person is not here...because as far as I'm concerned, it is worth sharing and getting the limelight. Oh and in that thread of face exercise program founders, I am not getting paid by any of the ones I've posted links or photos of. Some don't even know I am showing off their great results if they aren't members of the forum. I just happen to like the topic of face exercises and as long as a discussion comes up for which I can chime in, you can bet your bottom dollar I will, and most likely I will also post photos of people not here... coz it's just Nonie's modus operandi to use props to explain stuff. And you know what, last I checked, people do appreciate it when I do, even if it seems to rub you the wrong way.

But really, I don't understand your obsessive need to "expose" people. How about just deciding for yourself who's a crook and just living your life without drinking the KoolAid they're selling? It seems like a recipe for stress, wrinkles, heart disease, even a quick death to be worrying your head as you've been doing, trying to police the world. Laughing

Don't you have enough in your life to keep you otherwise occupied? I don't think you can win a contest with Satan, Father of Lies...and last I checked he sorta runs the show on this earth so you can bet your bottom dollar, he has lots of cohorts who fit the bill you are seeking to expose. And with such great numbers, I doubt you can round them all up. So live and let live, I say is m advice anyway. Oh and that's for free too. Very Happy

Oy bloody vey!

free skin care · Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:47 am

Lord have mercy! Laughing

free skin care · Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:03 am

ETA: I am concerned that I see whole post disappearing from EDS on a much regular basis lately.

Ultimately, this is a free site, no subscriptions required, so yes, the owners decide the rules.

In my opinion, we get enough advertising in our daily lives - they're coming at us from every angle *in many forms*, so having a place where we can discuss the benefits or disadvantages of products without constant bombardment of advertising is a valuable thing AND it draws eyeballs to the site - eyeballs that will spend money here.
If they want the forum portion of the site to diminish, they can make that happen. When posters show up and only get one sided viewpoints and trite responses, they will stop coming here. It's quite simple.
I will not participlate in long winded rants and diatribes against certain posters. It's not good for anyone's mental health and doesn't add anything.

My messages about disclosure are not complicated. Those who get them, get them. Those who don't - there is nothing that will help them get it.

BFG

free skin care · Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:22 pm

Gah! A new person recently moved into our neighborhood and we (all in the neighborhood) finally concur that the individual is *toxic*!

Believe it or not, made me think of this Sales & Ethics thread and the OP’s comments regarding the ethics within the community in which she was raised, MaryClaire’s comment “ It’s never their fault that they have to lie and cheat. They justify it by saying it’s the way of the world.” and Nonie aka AD’s perspective: “...How about just deciding for yourself who's a crook and just living your life without drinking the KoolAid they're selling? It seems like a recipe for… worrying your head … trying to police the world…”.

Wanted to post - that it’s awfully difficult to ignore and continue *living your life w/o drinking the Kool-Aid they’re selling*, especially when toxic scammer-personalities actually live in close proximity to where one lives in an honest and objectively decent neighborhood..

None of us in the neighborhood are trying to *police the world*, but awareness and recognition are just a few of our watchdog –team tools that contribute to protecting our neighborhood values (and, thus far, our sanity LOLOL)

Initially, of course, we were all delighted and *welcome-wagoned* the individual into our neighborhood. However, through our many and varied experiences with this individual, it dawned on all of us that it’s really true:
* Con Artists should never be underestimated. * (whether they're living 8 houses away, or on an online forum or on any Information Super Highway site. It’s all, unfortunately, still in-your-face situations.)

more on Con-Artistry (below link)

http://martiecoetser.hubpages.com/hub/Con-artists-sociopaths-troubled-with-Narcissistic-Personality-Disorder

free skin care · Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:53 am

I don't even know what to say anymore on this topic. People either get why it's important to the integrity of a group - or they don't. Maybe I have been around awhile, I'm older, so I can sense a tiger before even seeing the stripes...but newer people? who knows? I sense some think the rules of real life shouldn't apply when they login online. You don't think about it when logging into a chat room of your high school buddies, but a place where products in an industry based on hope and illusion are discussed? slam dunk. to me.

Documentarian Morgan Spurlock spoofs the concept in the link below. Maybe avatar jackets are a great idea LOL.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/movies/selling-morgan-spurlocks-greatest-movie-ever-sold.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

BFG

free skin care · Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:58 am

Kath, your link is very interesting. Having had my brushes with a few personalities I am convinced had a narcisstic/sociopathic/borderline disorder, I've done some research on that topic, myself.

However, I will say it troubles me seeing it here because when you learn a little bit about the phenomenon, it becomes easy to snap-diagnose people who act in ways we don't like, or who commit something we consider a breach of ethics, etc. The tendency to do this is analogous to med-students who learn about about obscure diseases and then become paranoid they have them or maybe their loved ones have them because they exhibit a few of the symtoms. Laughing

But it's perfectly possible for people to be (for example) weirdly tone-deaf, strident, self-centered, bafflingly repetitive or argumentative to the point of nauseam, to act in foolish ways (such as lack of disclosure), even to be manipulative to an extent, or to act in myriad other ways that we all find offensive at different times, all *without* having a personality disorder.

This is especially true on forums (or Twitter, or FB), where non-verbal cues are absent or at best replaced by emoticons, and where many of the strictures on behavior that inhibit us in daily F2F contact are absent. For example, a friend may act on a forum towards online acquaintances in ways she would never do to your face. Most of us try not to be like that, but IMO plenty of people lack the self-awareness to realize the difference.

To speak to the original point of this thread: my take is that it's entirely possible to live your life and not be taken in *without* knowing everyone's affiliations.

It's also entirely possible to help friends with their business, without being crooked or morally compromised.

Not the popularly held belief, I know, but that's where I'm at.

That's not to say I believe that people shouldn't disclose their affiliations...they should, if for no other reason than to avoid the appearance of impropriety. But IMO lack of disclosure can be due to many things, top two of which are fear and foolishness. Fear is number one, because frequently people face unpleasant consequences as a result of their disclosure, even when their intent and affiliation is entirely pure and no wrong has ever been committed. "Political hay" can be made of any disclosure by people who don't like you, and frequently is.

Foolishness is the second reason for lack of disclosure. Stuff tends to come out, so it's foolish not to just be up front about it in the first place.

To speak to the point of the link on narcisstic/sociopathic personality disorder: please be *extremely* careful slinging that label around. Everyone exhibits some of those tendencies from time to time, and especially on the internet it's really, really easy to use it on someone we simply don't like.

IMHO it's worth noting right now that only a small handful of people on this forum have commented on this thread, yet there are many, many, many worthy regular posters who I am quite sure have read it and are not vendor shills. Are these people *really* of less value to the forum simply because they haven't posted in this thread?

For myself, for the most part, these days I choose to take people at face value, until I see proof otherwise that they are not what they seem to be. That is not to say I am particularly gullible (at least, I hope I'm not Laughing

), but experience lets me know it's a whole lot more pleasant than seeing a shill (or a troll) around every corner just because someone rhapsodizes about (or has an intense, ongoing dislike for) a product.

This mindset also makes me happier than I was when (for example) a dumb lapse in judgment or an annoying personality trait was enough to make me cut someone out of my life. Black & white is frequently a hard way to go through life.

free skin care · Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:53 am

Once I figured it all out, I finally decided this isn't personal - it's not about what one poster here does or doesn't do - it's about the forum as a community.

If the community has a set of rules I am not entirely comfortable with, then I am more inclined to come here only to get info and not share or give as much info - why? because I can't be certain of the biases that exist here and that influences how freely I feel about sharing what I learn or know.

Whether that is important to anyone else here, I don't know. Just a game changer for me, perhaps.

BFG

free skin care · Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:32 am

I agree, this isn't about personalities - it's simply about providing unbiased reviews and following forum guidelines which state that any financial affiliation with the product should be declared.

However, there is one grey area - and that's where members receive free products to review from sellers - we know this goes on, but sometimes people don't declare this. In addition, members often develop close relationships with sellers and become conduits for product marketing - but I think it's up to those members to try and remain as unbiased as possible.

Also, just one comment on the backlash against "negativity" lately. If we want unbiased reviews, then surely we have to accept negative as well as positive comments. Recently we've had calls for any negative reviews to contain proof - we've even had threats of law suits for making unfavourable comments. I don't follow this line of thinking - and if we're going to demand proof for negative comments then we should also demand proof for positive ones!

free skin care · Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:38 am

Let nature be your gifter and supplier and you wont care about scam and scammers.

But viewing the conversation i can feel some evil and weird satisfaction from all of this stuff.

Just my 2 cents Wink

Who writes something about something that he/she doesnt like to happen? If you hate war then never care about spreading the violence but instead spread the love Wink

Some people they are auto -identify themselves from this stuff.Period.

Btw Yubs you have a completely wrong view about diseases.I suggest to you as a therapy daily: 2x in the sea,picking fresh fruits,bathing with oregano oil, sun-therapy-eating sun gaze,breathing exercises.And then you are about to see diseases that are there to HELP THE PERSON.

free skin care · Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:46 am

Keliu wrote:

Also, just one comment on the backlash against "negativity" lately. If we want unbiased reviews, then surely we have to accept negative as well as positive comments. Recently we've had calls for any negative reviews to contain proof - we've even had threats of law suits for making unfavourable comments. I don't follow this line of thinking - and if we're going to demand proof for negative comments then we should also demand proof for positive ones!

I 100% agree with this. Unless someone is providing proof of their own successes or failures, they certainly shouldn't question those of others. And even then it still wouldn't be appropriate.

free skin care · Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:05 pm

Glad you enjoyed my link, Yubs. It highlighted quickly and expediently what I thought in an interesting, short, and non- clinical synopsis-outline that is, IMO, valuable in an arsenal of critical information in identifying character traits that sometimes we can either sporadically exhibit and help improve in ourselves (no on is perfect nor morally blemish-free) or, also, remind ourselves of the traits that cause suffering, pain and harm towards others.

Refreshing ourselves with tidbits of such info can mostly minimize, also, the shock when we come across or encounter those irregularities and deviant characteristics that we have to endure within our day-to-day lives.

I only do wish in my particular circumstance within our neighborhood that we did not have to be exposed to and experience an individual who continually -- pathologically lies, defames the character of each an every neighbor, intentionally slanders and maligns each person in our friendly, stable and well-functioning neighborhood, deliberately creates chaos and friction amongst families and between family members with preposterous accusations and has devised elaborate egregious schemes that defies any imagination. (My DH, also, an attorney, has encountered and dealt w/ plenty, and has a professional tenacity to keep a very open mind. ) We’re still both amazed at the extent of this individual’s voracity.

There’s nothing psychosomatic about our or all of our other neighbors’ perceptions re most of this individual’s actions and behaviors. Given that, thus far, no actual criminal-law-breaking, criminally illegal activities have fully surfaced,-- (yet), pre-tort legal stages have already been delineated, for the benefit of a majority of us. One neighbor, a clinical psychologist specializing in deviant behavior, has already noted a request for a condition of a Psychological Assessment to be mandatory for this individual due to the consensus of all our observations…we’ll see.)

The common denominator here, as BFG aptly points out, that once the ethical fiber of any community (in my case our newly-victimized neighborhood community) is infiltrated with a sense of a loss of trust, it is unpleasant and neither justifications nor rationalizations excuses IT.

No one does relish living in a neighborhood where not only does one have to live under a perpetual Doubt-Cloud, nor , to have to, also, live with, despite our best to ignore, the expectation-of-the -unexpected, sucker-punch activities from a bold and known conniver.

IT’S certainly not, as you shrugged off, simply a matter of like or dislike of an individual. And IT’S so much more than having to live in proximity with someone who enjoys occasionally putting vinegar in the fly ointment that serves only to become part of warped discourses.

Hence, my post and the concurrence with all neighbors that we truly have a bona-fide Con-Artist in our midst … And to remember to never, ever underestimate them! We all know that there is no *black and white* judgment about that fact! IT’S real and very much ALIVE!

Yubs, I’d like to address one statement that confuses me, apart from the tone, context and confessional direction of your post. My *take* on the point of this thread, (and I may be mistaken) wasn’t about trying to *out* any forum members of any discreet or indiscreet affiliations nor announce nor beg for members’ affiliations-disclosures. I believe there was a thread created in the Lounge Forum titled *Out of The Closet* which pertained specifically to having EDS Forum members disclose whether they had any product *affiliations* -- the request to disclose affiliations was over there.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=49182

In regard to most/ the rest of your post, i.e. covertly helping friends profit with their business here, not feeling morally compromised when doing so, foolishness of not disclosing, *worthy regular posters* and shills or non-shills not posting in this thread, I would not even remotely want to address nor even want to fathom offering neither credence nor accuracy nor explanations. (not privy to worthy-poster-category -- LOL)

Maybe those issues could be part of any ongoing discussions or start a discussion there in the *Out Of the Closet* thread mentioned earlier.

I think my primary goals of posting on this thread were too show a few examples of how ethics, as a highly-desirable, and highly-revered value, -- which I presumed everyone here agreed to its inherent value -- goes/can go/has gone -- wrong.

I enjoy reading other posters sharing their information, feelings and opinions about this value being compromised. I can relate to their frustrations. - If someone wants to *out* themselves over in *Out of the Closet* thread, works for me. I’m sure it would be considered admirable.

@Panoslydios, how ‘bout we send you round trip air-fare and provide room & board at our place, if you promise to visit with a particular neighbor of ours 10 hours daily for a month or two. For us, it could possibly be a That’ll-Fix‘em-Strategy-Therapy ...LOL

I agree w/ Keliu's post re the very obvious need for unbiased product reviews here. However, I can’t believe that the existence of a *gray area* would be of any benefit to any forum reader without a full disclosure-paradigm - specifically reviews of free samples and/or profit-sharing w/ personal-social relationships.

IMHO, from what I see, objectivity and ethics are already too idiosyncratic.

free skin care · Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:47 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

Well, that's awfully discouraging to read.
What makes one online forum draw more readers than another? ...the quality of the discussion.
It's really unfortunate. When people begin to lose confidence in what they can gain from a site, they go elsewhere...when the most knowledgeable and helpful posters leave, the rest beat feet and then the forum dies...I have seen it time and again. Because there are no disclosure rules here, the only way I know of gaining confidence in a poster's writing is to watch their writing styles and posting patterns...i.e. - do they only show up to tout one product, never showing up on other threads? do they ask questions? are they knowleageable about skincare in general? do they "cheerlead" one brand over others, over again?...this helps me to focus on the valuable posters and ignore the rest. Over time, I find myself only clicking on certain names..

A few thoughts on ethics and disclosure rules:

A few years back a dermatologist on EDS who looked 10 years older than his actual age criticized facial exercise: He criticized the work of peers who were His age who looked 10 years younger than him who did facial exercise. He disparaged facial exercise and everyone who did it. He also sold his own skin care line and advocated surgical methods. Interesting that he looked so aged as the expert in the field. Understandably this validated my personal belief in facial exercise and made me skeptical of opinions of many doctors.

We have people on EDS who have paid major money for surgical results - To be eithical: with every post they should have to say this in response to any other result - Eye lift, Brow lift, etc - not that a product is great... they should let the audience know their surgical history. it cannot be compared to someone who is achieving results naturally. Surgery/fillers, botox is fine but give credence to the results that come in a natural way.
If you have an eyelift - of course your eye cream may have a better look if your eye bags are lifted. etc.
I know we are being fair on EDS and need to let eveyone know their baseline about things.

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