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Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:04 am  |
This scenario I have witnessed many times since I joined in 2005, and many posters have left the forums out of frustration, good and bad. Witchhunts have commenced and many innocents burned in the fire.
I also have a valued group of posters that I follow and trust. I know these names, their issues, skin types and trust-worthiness. But sadly, we have also lost some of those valued members due to the drama, accusations and fighting. There is never a cause nor a place to be mean and petty. It casts a nasty film on an otherwise pleasurable pastime.
When I first posted about the Baby Q, I was accused of hawking it even though I never promoted it. When I did the NY Times interview on it, I even said that I couldn't tell you it did a darn thing and it was like the emperor's new clothes. Surely, the Quasar people aren't paying me to say that, haha. Yet there were many times I would find an article or a Baby Q for sale with my picture as if I did promote it. Nothing I could do about that.
So sometimes we just get enthusiastic about a product (like me and IS Clinical/Phyto-C serums).
As with any product or service in any field, be it cosmetic or financial, due diligence is required. Every stock I look at before buying I use DD. I will try something but I am also willing to answer for my own actions. You aren't holding my hand to the fire.
Having been a therapist and a minister for so long, I have seen that the amount of willing victims in the world completely/overwhelmingly outnumbers those that take responsibility for their own actions.
Caveot emptor. |
_________________
Joined the 50 club several years back, blonde w/ fair/sensitive skin, Texas humidity and prone to rosacea, light breakouts and sunburns, combo skin type, starting to see sundamage and fine lines |
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Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:39 am |
| sister sweets wrote: |
A few thoughts on ethics and disclosure rules:
We have people on EDS who have paid major money for surgical results - To be eithical: with every post they should have to say this in response to any other result - Eye lift, Brow lift, etc - not that a product is great... they should let the audience know their surgical history. it cannot be compared to someone who is achieving results naturally. Surgery/fillers, botox is fine but give credence to the results that come in a natural way.
If you have an eyelift - of course your eye cream may have a better look if your eye bags are lifted. etc.
I know we are being fair on EDS and need to let eveyone know their baseline about things. |
I thought we were discussing the forum ethics in regards to members selling here without disclosing their intentions? What does any of that have to do with selling ethics? If a person notices an improvement/worsening from their baseline skin health (whether they have had former procedures or not), surely they are entitled to share their reviews here? We all know that having a procedure does not stop aging in its tracks, or change someone's skin completely from another's. Even a total facelift will mean a person trying a new product will be able to notice whether their skin improves or stays the same, just as anyone else would. This really would entail anything that a person has done to their skin would need to be listed at every review, which would get tedious. Retin A has had one of the most beneficial results to my skin as my main problem has been sun damage, but must I repeat it every time? Even though everything else I do is surely enhanced by its use? What about autoneedling? Is it natural to have a device that makes thousands of holes in my skin and makes me swell for days, or lasers? The impacts are pretty significant, and everything effects everything else. Why would we just single out people that have 'paid major money for surgical results'? A tca peel I did gave pretty major results. I'm not sure how natural it felt burning off my skin at the time. What I do know is whatever we do, skin is skin, and it continues to age, so everyone should surely be entitled to review without having to give a caveat every time only for specific things they have undergone. It would seem unfair, almost as if those kinds of interventions are looked down upon, when really there is some great help for people with issues that could not be addressed otherwise.
I fail to see where the ethical issue is with people having surgical or non surgical treatments which are deemed 'unnatural'. How is it decided what is natural? Is using an electrical device like ultrasound or microcurrent continually on the skin 'natural'? The lists of everything you have ever done that may have contributed to an accumulated result would get exhaustive. Why is there an ethical issue anyway? Unless someone is trying to sell the device or product and has put pictures up of a surgically enhanced face and claimed it is natural - and I believe we have certainly seen this here, I don't see why other regular members not here to sell need to list every thing they've ever done. Members that are here to share and learn have nothing to gain by lying about or exaggerating their results. This really only pertains to those here to promote or sell, which is what the focus of this thread is.
I also have a problem with the 'supporting friends here to sell' and the excuses made why someone wouldn't disclose that they are pushing products onto unknowing members. I also do not think there is a grey area. Just like on any blog where laws state clearly if a product was given for free it should be made clear to the public for ethical reasons, so should people certainly make their connections clear here. It is unfairly advantageous to the seller to be singing the praises of your friends products, or of something you have a sweet deal with or even get freebies from without telling people you may be a wee bit biased. This is absolutely understood elshere in cyberspace, I would hope it would also be clear here, and that we had mods to protect us from those that take advantage of the trust this kind of forum promotes. |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:42 am |
I hope this will be my last post on the topic.
Regarding photos - if someone posts photos here demonstrating success, they are more credible if they share their entire regimen: topicals, gadgets, surgery, whatever... I recall this was the subject of a big dust up in some of the FE photos. Regarding anecdotal reports - while I sometimes find myself scratching my head, I am not going to question someone else's reports. People see what they want to see.
I have learned a lot lately about this community and I am disappointed. I am no longer naive. This sandbox is apparently dirty. I won't play here the same way - there are others cleaner and more reliable.
I simply find it unethical to not disclose affiliations.
At the end of the day, our character is all we have. I am comfortable with mine.
BFG - one last mention: I am still interested in researching and discussing verifiable claims for various products. Anyone else interested in that, contact me privately. |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:24 am |
| I would never be naïve enough to buy anything on the say-so of one person (even if they haven't admitted a connection to the product). Reading a range of reviews is advisable and not just on the EDS forum (it isn't the be-all and end-all!!). |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:38 pm |
| Tyger wrote: |
| I would never be naïve enough to buy anything on the say-so of one person (even if they haven't admitted a connection to the product). Reading a range of reviews is advisable and not just on the EDS forum (it isn't the be-all and end-all!!). |
When that 'one person' has been a long term member, well known and trusted, and suddenly they are claiming the most dramatic results that everyone would love to have in a particular age group, you would be surprised just how many people would (and have) 'been naive enough to buy on the say-so of this one person'. When that person has taken time to build relationships here, and has appeared to be a giving and helpful person, many find it impossible to believe that this same 'wonderful' person was actually in it for the take.
Of course there are ways to smell a rat, and now I am far more aware than I was before too, such as:
Does this member seem mainly or only interested in pushing a given product or two at any given time?
Does this member seem to have a lot of direct contact with the vendor and sets themselves up as a conduit for info, sales blurbs, links to vendor sites, often declares sales and percentages off for members if you buy now?
Has this member allowed their photos to be used for marketing any products online before?
Does this member defend the product constantly, blaming user error or other things when another member is not getting results?
Does the member claim results from the product that don't seem to be able to be backed up realistically?
Does the member constantly mention the product of the moment in other threads, even when seemingly irrelevant?
And on and on. These are the kind of checks I now make. Of course not all of them mean someone has connections they haven't made clear, but I find that if it is ongoing and there is a decent strike rate on the points above, then it's time to get suspicious of the motives. |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:25 pm |
Oh, another one I thought of:
Does the members results seem more exciting and better than other members seem to be getting?
Remember it is not always just one person here selling a particular product.
I'm sure you get the picture, and others can think of a few too. |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:58 pm |
| sister sweets wrote: |
A few thoughts on ethics and disclosure rules:
....If you have an eyelift - of course your eye cream may have a better look
if your eye bags are lifted. etc.....
.....I know we are being fair on EDS and need to let eveyone know their baseline about things. |
The thoughts certainly fall within the *ethics spectrum.* and, IMO, are valid.
A teeny example --
Being an avid (time-permitting) and eager reader of the forums here, I had sometimes become enticed by a back-and-forth between posters rave re a *product-etc*, or yes, even, pics, and as result, I’d recommend *things* out to family/friends.
Then, as I followed product promotion progress, time-later, I’d discover answers to questions I secretly harbored. Indirectly or directly, I’d learn that a reviewer(s)/poster(s)/promoter(s) has had some undisclosed previous physical augmentations/surgical treatments/enhancements/procedures etc. done which, of course, in turn, to me, belied some of the weight of the claims and, subsequently, put into question the *products’-etc.* effectiveness.
I’d just become so weary of updating/deleting my recs to others with an “Oh, never mind.”
I have zero idea on whether to suggest that product reviewers-promoters be more up-front, hoping that they’re simultaneously comfortable with their own sharing and encourage their understanding that the added info sometimes really can be valuable. Or whether it’s just a medical privacy issue and -- MYOB.
So, yeah, buyer beware rules even here at *Ed’s place*, just like anywhere else in the marketplace and at other *places*, and this teeny element (amongst other major ones, I’m sure, e.g. In-It-For-The-Take) does make the ethics fabric a little *raggedy-er* than it could be.
@Idealist - Great formalized common-sense list of questions/patterns to help detect and unravel agendas, in general. WOOT!!
(It’s the uncovering of some of the answers that become, sometimes, the pathetically time-consuming part.) |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:06 pm |
Kath--"Ed's place."  |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:20 pm |
| Kath91 wrote: |
| sister sweets wrote: |
A few thoughts on ethics and disclosure rules:
....If you have an eyelift - of course your eye cream may have a better look
if your eye bags are lifted. etc.....
.....I know we are being fair on EDS and need to let eveyone know their baseline about things. |
The thoughts certainly fall within the *ethics spectrum.* and, IMO, are valid.
A teeny example --
Being an avid (time-permitting) and eager reader of the forums here, I had sometimes become enticed by a back-and-forth between posters rave re a *product-etc*, or yes, even, pics, and as result, I’d recommend *things* out to family/friends.
Then, as I followed product promotion progress, time-later, I’d discover answers to questions I secretly harbored. Indirectly or directly, I’d learn that a reviewer(s)/poster(s)/promoter(s) has had some undisclosed previous physical augmentations/surgical treatments/enhancements/procedures etc. done which, of course, in turn, to me, belied some of the weight of the claims and, subsequently, put into question the *products’-etc.* effectiveness.
I’d just become so weary of updating/deleting my recs to others with an “Oh, never mind.”
I have zero idea on whether to suggest that product reviewers-promoters be more up-front, hoping that they’re simultaneously comfortable with their own sharing and encourage their understanding that the added info sometimes really can be valuable. Or whether it’s just a medical privacy issue and -- MYOB.
So, yeah, buyer beware rules even here at *Ed’s place*, just like anywhere else in the marketplace and at other *places*, and this teeny element (amongst other major ones, I’m sure, e.g. In-It-For-The-Take) does make the ethics fabric a little *raggedy-er* than it could be.
@Idealist - Great formalized common-sense list of questions/patterns to help detect and unravel agendas, in general. WOOT!!
(It’s the uncovering of some of the answers that become, sometimes, the pathetically time-consuming part.) |
I agree with both you and BFG that it is absolutely relevant if the person is selling a product, and most certainly if posting before and afters. Why anyone else would lie or claim exaggerated results when reviewing I just don't know. There are certain areas we see the obvious surgical or filler intervention that the vendor will not admit to, some of the most egregious offenders being in the facial exercising world. |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:00 pm |
There is so much negative energy surrounding this topic that I need to let go of and no longer be a part of, but one last thought occurred to me tonight when I was driving home from dinner...something very basic:
When a product works and works well, it sells itself.
The manufacturer has no need for huge ad budgets or to pay inside reps, outside reps, online reps...because the manufacturer is busy keeping it in stock.
When something works, word gets around and a star is born....
Until the star is born, we ask questions and the sellers either go on attack, get defensive or take their marbles and go home.
It is so telling and we see it happen time and again.
BFG |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:32 pm |
@BFG, Please don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch for you.
Some of us have the luxury of having spent many years at EDS, so we *smell* the cat, long before it's out of the bag...  |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:47 pm |
| Maybe it's just me but I don't know what is so hard to figure out. If you are getting ANY kind of compensation, whether free product, money, free treatments, whatever you need to disclose that. This doesn't make you a bad person but it can make you biased. People need to know that information and they can draw their own conclusions. It has been show in studies something as small as a pen given to a Doctor can influence the drug that they write a prescription for. |
_________________
Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:40 am |
| Idealist wrote: |
| Tyger wrote: |
| I would never be naïve enough to buy anything on the say-so of one person (even if they haven't admitted a connection to the product). Reading a range of reviews is advisable and not just on the EDS forum (it isn't the be-all and end-all!!). |
When that 'one person' has been a long term member, well known and trusted, and suddenly they are claiming the most dramatic results that everyone would love to have in a particular age group, you would be surprised just how many people would (and have) 'been naive enough to buy on the say-so of this one person'. When that person has taken time to build relationships here, and has appeared to be a giving and helpful person, many find it impossible to believe that this same 'wonderful' person was actually in it for the take.
Of course there are ways to smell a rat, and now I am far more aware than I was before too, such as:
Does this member seem mainly or only interested in pushing a given product or two at any given time?
Does this member seem to have a lot of direct contact with the vendor and sets themselves up as a conduit for info, sales blurbs, links to vendor sites, often declares sales and percentages off for members if you buy now?
Has this member allowed their photos to be used for marketing any products online before?
Does this member defend the product constantly, blaming user error or other things when another member is not getting results?
Does the member claim results from the product that don't seem to be able to be backed up realistically?
Does the member constantly mention the product of the moment in other threads, even when seemingly irrelevant?
And on and on. These are the kind of checks I now make. Of course not all of them mean someone has connections they haven't made clear, but I find that if it is ongoing and there is a decent strike rate on the points above, then it's time to get suspicious of the motives. |
I guess I am an old cynic.... I like to read lots of other reviews before I spend my hard-earned cash. I do agree all the points above are relevant if you have trusted one person for a while and are considering acting solely on their reviews though. |
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:41 am |
Maybe it's just me but I don't know what is so hard to figure out.
It's not just you - not by a long shot!
just hear all the emotion surrounding the topic, that's the sound of people worried about someone messing with their "rice bowl" LOL.
oh well, over and out. As you said Cookie, it's not that hard to understand.
BFG |
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:53 pm |
| CookieD wrote: |
... It has been show in studies something as small as a pen given to a Doctor can influence the drug that they write a prescription for.
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And then get a bunch of celebs to touch that pen -- and we’re all doomed 
(Mr. Marketing Bias shouts "Hello" and we understand to try to stay clear of all the drooling  ) |
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