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doodles
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:05 pm      Reply with quote
I'm curious why when universal healthcare is mentioned by anyone from the US it's always with derision, ie: socialist/Marxist-type system - really? I can only speak about Canada, but if ANY government, provincial or federal, ever talked about dismantling the health care system we have in favor of a health care system modeled after the US, you wouldn't believe how fast their butts would be turfed!! All Canadians, rich and poor, are proud of our system. It might need some adjustments, but NO ONE is left without coverage because they are uninsured or under-insured. I'm betting people in Australia and the UK feel the same. Have you ever thought that the propaganda is coming from your side of the border? Ooh, scary universal healthcare = higher taxes, let the poor fend for themselves, etc.

My sister, who lives in Washington state, pays $1200 a month for her healthcare plan for her family of 3. Then of course her family also has property taxes, federal income tax, etc. If this is what the free market system for healthcare costs, you can keep it!

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:09 pm      Reply with quote
I live in the US and I am very much against government healthcare. Our government has never managed any benefit system well. Lots of waste and corruption. Just look at our current systems. No one in the US has ever went without healthcare. They just need to go to the emergency room and they cannot be refused. If they cannot work and provide for themselves, there are lots of programs to help them.

When I found out that several EDS members like their universal health care, I tried to find out why it worked in their country and not ours.

Australia in particular seems to be doing very well. I have read complaints about England and Canada, France, Greece. I thought their healthcare systems were going broke. Please correct me.

I think that it might hinge on the fact that the US has a lot of people coming here illegally. We also have a drug problem (no taxes there) and our current administration makes it easy to game the system.
Our schools, hospitals, benefit programs are already impacted negatively with illegal immigrants and Americans without healthcare and Americans that can't find a job or don't want a job.

The benefit programs have had drastic increases in the last 50 years. Unbelieveably so. People that can't find a job or want to supplement their retirement go on disability.

Almost more people are receiving benefit checks than are paying income taxes. We cannot be a strong nation without working citizens.

We owe 18 trillion dollars. China is buying our debt. Yet our congress wants to print more paper money.

I believe every capable body should work if they are not able to support themselves. If you want more you work for it. Attaining goals and supporting yourself and your family gives you motivation and incentive and self-esteem.
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:31 pm      Reply with quote
doodles wrote:
I'm curious why when universal healthcare is mentioned by anyone from the US it's always with derision, ie: socialist/Marxist-type system - really? I can only speak about Canada, but if ANY government, provincial or federal, ever talked about dismantling the health care system we have in favor of a health care system modeled after the US, you wouldn't believe how fast their butts would be turfed!! All Canadians, rich and poor, are proud of our system. It might need some adjustments, but NO ONE is left without coverage because they are uninsured or under-insured. I'm betting people in Australia and the UK feel the same. Have you ever thought that the propaganda is coming from your side of the border? Ooh, scary universal healthcare = higher taxes, let the poor fend for themselves, etc.

My sister, who lives in Washington state, pays $1200 a month for her healthcare plan for her family of 3. Then of course her family also has property taxes, federal income tax, etc. If this is what the free market system for healthcare costs, you can keep it!


doodles, please do not suggest that anyone who doesn't believe the same thing you do is brainwashed by propaganda. Speaking for myself, I am perfectly capable of making up my own mind based on what I've read, seen, and heard. I have a Master's degree and have taken history, economics, statistics, an accounting course, etc. I read voluminously. I have at least as many working braincells as you, and I am not particularly susceptible to being swayed by sloganeering and glib soundbites. I do my due diligence on a topic.

Just wondering...why do you consider the term socialist/Marxism considered "derisive"? I just thought it was a fact. Any governmental system that is run by bureaucrats and money is taxed into a pool and redistributed to the citizens is Marxist/Socialist. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Just a fact. So I would think that you would consider the term Marxist/Socialist a compliment, based on how the system really works, since you apparently like it so much it when it comes to healthcare.

But anyway, my take is that basic economics tells us that when the money runs out, there are problems. Everybody knows this.

So the problem with universal healthcare, especially when we are in a situation like now where the global population is rapidly aging and there are far fewer young people paying in than old/ill/unhealthy people drawing out, is that eventually you run out of other people's money. The people who are kicking in the most get sick of paying much more freight than others, and sometimes decide to quit producing. I know of several business owners locally that have just given up because they cannot afford to pay the workers to grow their business under the new healthcare system regs.

Many employers are also dropping some employees down to part-time, and not offering their part-time people healthcare any more. This means the part-timers will pay higher insurance premiums in the form of taxes.

But then fewer businesses and employees to tax means an increasingly smaller tax base. An increasingly smaller tax base means increasingly higher taxes on the base that's left, because the government must support itself. It takes what it needs, regardless of your needs.

Increasingly higher taxes means less disposable income. Less disposable income eventually means the whole economy tanks. It happened in the Soviet Union, it's currently happening in Greece, Spain...all over the world.

Further, if you as a person are getting a whole bunch of free stuff for doing not much, eventually it de-incentivizes your motivation to do anything to actually earn what you're getting. I don't mean you particularly, becaue I know better than that, but you in the general sense. That's just human nature. So when you get more people getting free stuff, eventually you get fewer people kicking in. This shrinks the tax base further.

On top of this don't forget the aging population and the dearth of young people of working age.

Then, when the tax base shrinks enough for all those reasons, you run out of other people's money, and everyone is Greece. Everyone is screwed. It's a vicious cycle.

Frankly, there was a lot wrong with the U.S. system before the ACA. But universal health care won't fix it. It's just going to make our economic problems worse.

Globally, it may take a decade or maybe even two, but just watch what happens to the great universal systems over that time. Some of us will likely expire before it all implodes, but our children and grandchildren are going to be in one heck of a fix thanks to us.

As far as Canadians "all" being proud of the healthcare system...well, I've heard quite a lot of criticism online about it. I have a couple of elderly snowbird neighbors that migrate every year from Canada and they HATE the healthcare up there. Long waits, hard to get to see a specialist, etc. But I won't debate you on that. You live there, I don't. You're entitle to your opinion based on your experience.

I don't know what the solution is. It's awful that some people are going without healthcare they need, and it's also very sad that many of us will have to go without it in the future, regardless of how we feel about whatever system we're in.

But taking prosperous people and taxing them into poverty (or into being disgusted enough to quit producing) in order to provide free stuff for other people, many of whom have not earned the free stuff they're being doled out, is not the way to fix it.
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:31 pm      Reply with quote
@Yubs... I wish I could give you 10 thank you 's and a hug. Very Happy

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:37 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs- I think your comment above are a over reaction and rude to boot. Your always talking about playing nice and these comments certainly don't meet that standard to me. It isn't about what you said. It how you said it.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:41 pm      Reply with quote
MaryClaire wrote:
I live in the US and I am very much against government healthcare. Our government has never managed any benefit system well. Lots of waste and corruption. Just look at our current systems. No one in the US has ever went without healthcare. They just need to go to the emergency room and they cannot be refused. If they cannot work and provide for themselves, there are lots of programs to help them.

When I found out that several EDS members like their universal health care, I tried to find out why it worked in their country and not ours.

Australia in particular seems to be doing very well. I have read complaints about England and Canada, France, Greece. I thought their healthcare systems were going broke. Please correct me.

I think that it might hinge on the fact that the US has a lot of people coming here illegally. We also have a drug problem (no taxes there) and our current administration makes it easy to game the system.
Our schools, hospitals, benefit programs are already impacted negatively with illegal immigrants and Americans without healthcare and Americans that can't find a job or don't want a job.

The benefit programs have had drastic increases in the last 50 years. Unbelieveably so. People that can't find a job or want to supplement their retirement go on disability.

Almost more people are receiving benefit checks than are paying income taxes. We cannot be a strong nation without working citizens.

We owe 18 trillion dollars. China is buying our debt. Yet our congress wants to print more paper money.

I believe every capable body should work if they are not able to support themselves. If you want more you work for it. Attaining goals and supporting yourself and your family gives you motivation and incentive and self-esteem.


Great Post Mary Claire - To take it one step further, we can live longer, happier, healthier, productive lives and contribute to the economy if we take better care of ourselves. Too many people take too many drugs!! This coupled with malnutrition from poor quality foods devoid of mineral and nutrients and dehydation from lack of quality water, leads to what I like to call "stinkin thinkin". You can't motivate yourself when you aren't feeding your brain cells, have no self esteem and the government continues to enable you in this process. It's truly a vicious cycle. ~ Aprile Confused
Yubs
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:26 pm      Reply with quote
CookieD wrote:
Yubs- I think your comment above are a over reaction and rude to boot. Your always talking about playing nice and these comments certainly don't meet that standard to me. It isn't about what you said. It how you said it.


Cookie, I have the right to state my opinion just as doodles does. I stated it. She likes universal healthcare; I don't. Distilled down, that's all I said.

As far as the rudeness: doodles basically said that I didn't know my own mind and was being swayed by "propaganda", when in fact this is a subject I have read a good deal of substantial literature about. Where I come from, being told you're under the influence of propaganda is an insult. It's not something I would ever say to anyone I was attempting to have a non-acrimonious dialogue with. I addressed it in the manner I saw fit.

Sorry if you're offended. You've been unhappy with me for a while now, but I'm okay with that. Report the post if you want. I don't see anything wrong with anything I said, any more than doodles likely sees anything wrong with telling me I'm being swayed by propaganda. I hope we can just leave it at that.
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:32 pm      Reply with quote
doodles wrote:
I'm curious why when universal healthcare is mentioned by anyone from the US it's always with derision, ie: socialist/Marxist-type system - really? I can only speak about Canada, but if ANY government, provincial or federal, ever talked about dismantling the health care system we have in favor of a health care system modeled after the US, you wouldn't believe how fast their butts would be turfed!! All Canadians, rich and poor, are proud of our system. It might need some adjustments, but NO ONE is left without coverage because they are uninsured or under-insured. I'm betting people in Australia and the UK feel the same. Have you ever thought that the propaganda is coming from your side of the border? Ooh, scary universal healthcare = higher taxes, let the poor fend for themselves, etc.

My sister, who lives in Washington state, pays $1200 a month for her healthcare plan for her family of 3. Then of course her family also has property taxes, federal income tax, etc. If this is what the free market system for healthcare costs, you can keep it!


I would be curious how old your sister is, and her children. Where there any pre existing conditions?

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:44 pm      Reply with quote
I see nothing wrong with your post either Yubs. In fact, I would *think* that most Americans would agree with your commentary. Americans may be fed up with our system, but that doesn't mean we want Socialized medicine.

~ Aprile Confused
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:59 pm      Reply with quote
ClaudiaFE wrote:
HOLY CRAP...

I just opened my rate increases for my personal medical insurance...

An awesome 73.4% increase in rates. I could buy and make payments on a pretty awesome car for this crap insurance...

I pretty much don't care who believes what about what... STAY healthy... do it however you can and however you are willing...


This was on my mind ^^

A few weeks ago, we attended a discussion hosted at one of our local universities. The main speaker was Investigative Journalist, David Kay Johnston, who discussed topics from his book, “ The Fine Print: How Big Companies use ‘Plain English’ to Rob You Blind.” Johnston is a specialist in economics and tax issues. He is a Pulitzer Prize winner who worked for 13 years at the New York Times.. (He is president of Investigative Reporters & Editors and wrote best-selling books Perfectly Legal, which won him an IRE medal and the book, Free Lunch.)

A very congenial and impressively astute gentleman.

Aside from that tidbit, here is an interview with David, that I recalled reading some time back, regarding *healthcare*. . And his stance, (and I agree w/him) on how our current *market economy* is shifting. (not towards Marxist/Socialism but *corporate socialism*)



December 19, 2012

…In part two of our interview with David Cay Johnston, we discuss his book, The Fine Print: How Big Companies Use 'Plain English' to Rob You Blind. Johnston writes, "No other modern country gives corporations the unfettered power found in America to gouge cus¬tomers, shortchange workers, and erect barriers to fair play. A big reason is that so little of the news ... addresses the private, government-approved mechanisms by which price gouging is employed to redistribute income upward."…

AMY GOODMAN: Talk about healthcare.

DAVID CAY JOHNSTON: Well, you know, healthcare in America is not a — we don’t have a system of healthcare, Amy. What we have is a system - a non-system system of sick care.

We spend so much more money than the French, who have the best healthcare system in the world, according to the World Health Organization, that if we simply reduced our costs to those of France, we could eliminate the corporate income — or, the individual income tax. And think about that. Nobody would have to pay individual income tax, and we could have universal healthcare, and all else would be equal in our economy. And yet, at some point during the year, one in four Americans will not have health insurance, and about one in six will go the whole year without health insurance. We have created a — it’s part of how we are creating a privatized set of rules, sponsored by government, to redistribute upward.

And that’s the whole scheme here. It is to redistribute income upward in a way that a market economy would never do that, but a corporate socialist economy, where corporations are able to privatize gains and make you pick up their losses, that’s the kind of economy that we’re moving into...

(for more >
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2012/9/19/david_cay_johnston_the_fine_print
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:07 pm      Reply with quote
Some very thoughtful comments on US healthcare reform from much more learned folks than I. I personally am on the fence. I do wonder though, if hardworking Americans would truly just give up and stop working if they feel they are being fleeced. It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I work in social services administering benefits meant to help people in a time of crisis and hopefully enable them to become self sufficient again. I see a great many people suffering and they are grateful for the help they can receive, but I also see the many that "work the system". They are "repeat customers" year after year. I don't know that any adjustments we make to our system will ever change that. There are always going to be the people who want something for nothing and will never be motivated to fully support themselves, and there will also always be people, through no fault of their own, that end up destitute and struggling to get back on their feet. Unfortunately, we will never know if healthcare reform was a mistake until it is too late. Once it is set in motion, only disaster will swing the pendulum the other way. I am grateful that my family currently has good healthcare coverage, but there is no guarantee for the future. The only aspect of the reform I am 100% sure of is that you cannot be turned down coverage because of a pre existing condition. Although I am certain that will still come at a cost. Just thought I would throw in my two cents.
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:31 pm      Reply with quote
I love this comment ~ how profound.

Kath91 wrote:
DAVID CAY JOHNSTON: Well, you know, healthcare in America is not a — we don’t have a system of healthcare, Amy. What we have is a system - a non-system system of sick care.
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:38 pm      Reply with quote
fawnie wrote:
Buzzwords for old age (please god shoot me dead if I ever utter them when I get there):

•fixed income
•Social Security
•Medicare
•Senior Citizen Center
•any combination of the above.


Instead I plan on using these:

•freedom from workplace BS
•independent choice
•local tavern
•spa
•permanent vacation

Smile

Oh FUN!

ROFL

Tho don’t forget, some more, hopefully, already *buzzed-words* >

-Long-term-care Insurance
-Estate planning –
…...Finances
…...Health care proxies
…...Living Will
…...Etc

And for the REALLY permanent vacation -

-Obituary written
-Funeral/Burial selection & expenses
doodles
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:45 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
CookieD wrote:
Yubs- I think your comment above are a over reaction and rude to boot. Your always talking about playing nice and these comments certainly don't meet that standard to me. It isn't about what you said. It how you said it.


Cookie, I have the right to state my opinion just as doodles does. I stated it. She likes universal healthcare; I don't. Distilled down, that's all I said.

As far as the rudeness: doodles basically said that I didn't know my own mind and was being swayed by "propaganda", when in fact this is a subject I have read a good deal of substantial literature about. Where I come from, being told you're under the influence of propaganda is an insult. It's not something I would ever say to anyone I was attempting to have a non-acrimonious dialogue with. I addressed it in the manner I saw fit.

Sorry if you're offended. You've been unhappy with me for a while now, but I'm okay with that. Report the post if you want. I don't see anything wrong with anything I said, any more than doodles likely sees anything wrong with telling me I'm being swayed by propaganda. I hope we can just leave it at that.


Nope Yubs, Cookie got it right. It's not what you said, it's how you said it. I do find you to be rude to people who don't agree with you. I never said you didn't know your own mind - you are putting words in my mouth, and I'm also pretty sure that you don't believe my propaganda statement was directed toward you. I have spent a lot of time in the States and I know what gets said about universal health care on the other side of the border.

Also, your snowbird friends might complain about the system up here, but I bet you they all head home before the 6 months is up to make sure that their Canadian health care does not become invalid - they can't afford to be caught without it.

You talk about playing nice, but in my opinion you are one of the worst offenders.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:57 pm      Reply with quote
doodles wrote:
I'm also pretty sure that you don't believe my propaganda statement was directed toward you.


You tell me not to put words in your mouth and ascribe meaning to your words based on exactly what you wrote, yet you presume to know that I actually *think* something different than what I said. hmm... Maybe I should get my tinfoil hat out again so nobody can scan around inside my brain! Laughing

Oddly, you also presume to know what my neighbors really think. Are you psychic, doodles? Perhaps I should make them tinfoil hats, too. They should be back any day now.

Seriously, if you really weren't making an oblique insult, then I apologize for being flinty. But please know that insinuating that someone is or may be operating nder the influence of propaganda rather than facts just because they don't agree with you *is* an insult. I suspect you wouldn't like it very much if our situations were reversed and I had said that to you, although I can't prove that since I don't really know what you're thinking.

So you've made your point. I've made mine, and apologized. We're about to start going in circles. Can we move on so the thread doesn't get pulled for pointless bickering, please?
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:34 pm      Reply with quote
ClaudiaFE wrote:
doodles wrote:
I'm curious why when universal healthcare is mentioned by anyone from the US it's always with derision, ie: socialist/Marxist-type system - really? I can only speak about Canada, but if ANY government, provincial or federal, ever talked about dismantling the health care system we have in favor of a health care system modeled after the US, you wouldn't believe how fast their butts would be turfed!! All Canadians, rich and poor, are proud of our system. It might need some adjustments, but NO ONE is left without coverage because they are uninsured or under-insured. I'm betting people in Australia and the UK feel the same. Have you ever thought that the propaganda is coming from your side of the border? Ooh, scary universal healthcare = higher taxes, let the poor fend for themselves, etc.

My sister, who lives in Washington state, pays $1200 a month for her healthcare plan for her family of 3. Then of course her family also has property taxes, federal income tax, etc. If this is what the free market system for healthcare costs, you can keep it!


I would be curious how old your sister is, and her children. Where there any pre existing conditions?


My sister is 58, her husband is 49, and 2 kids ages 21 and 18. I don't think the 21 year old is on their health care anymore. It was $1400 when she was. The 18 year old has asthma but other than that, no pre existing conditions. My brother-in-law runs a small, one man road construction/demolition business and in order to get contracts with the government, they specify what health insurance he has to carry. As far as I know they have premium coverage, but for that kind of money I would hope so. My only point was that $1200 on top of all of their other expenses was quite a burden.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:19 pm      Reply with quote
Doodles...

That is quite high. I know that I found policies ranging from $300 - $1200 to cover our family outside of DH's policy. We're not a terribly sick family. So I was able to go with $300 ish.

Now that option is not avail at all. We're looking at $600 policies now... that are not particularly healthy. I have not exhausted all resources yet. I still have my fingers crossed.

Given your sis and BIL's age. the polices they qual for range between 1000 and 1144. If they qualify for a subsidy they could get that lowered perhaps by half. These are CA figures. It will be different I think from state to state.

I understand if the family qualifies for a policy at spouses work... they don't qualify for subsidy.

Nothing is ragingly clear just yet. I'd be curious how they benefit from the changes...I think it will hinge on the subsidy.

If however, your BIL funds a policy through work, that is a 100% tax deduction as a business expense. So there are savings to be had there.

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Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:05 pm      Reply with quote
Claudia,

I'm not sure how things have changed for them since the new regulations have taken effect. Washington State requires that my BIL belong to the Teamsters union and the Teamsters require that they get their health insurance through them. I know that shopping around is not an option for them, as my BIL relies on State contracts for quite a bit of his income. I have no idea if they are eligible for subsidies. I do know that at times they struggle to make ends meet and the large health insurance bill doesn't help.

I would have hoped that the new regulations made healthcare more affordable for the average working citizen. I did not realize that this wasn't the case. I hope that you find a plan that works for you and your family that doesn't break the bank. Doodles.

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Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:22 am      Reply with quote
aprile wrote:

Also, since you don't live in the U.S., you have no idea about the true burden and “cost” of healthcare here. You also have no idea how much “cancer” costs all of us. ~ Aprile


This is rather a silly statement - do you not think some of us have family in the US? I have heard a lot about the US system from mine. Plus when myself and an elderly family member were visiting NYC and she fell and gashed her chin, the costs she had to pay (the insurance co only refunded afterwards) were a lot more than she would have had to pay in the private sector in the UK for the same accident - and we do have a private sector/insurance here too, so you don't have to be treated by the NHS (although you still have to contribute to the NHS - after all no-one knows when they might need emergency treatment). Incidentally, most of the doctors in the private sector here also work for the NHS.
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Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:39 am      Reply with quote
Aprile I am not off the mark by any means or standards. I completely get diet is important with cancer, but telling people that they should eat only organic food which is costly and isn’t proven by any shape or form to undo cancer is not only mad but completely illogical and makes me want to cringe. Yes cancer has been linked to toxins, but not just toxins in foods, and the idea that your trying to sell people here that eating only organic is going to prevent that from happening is down right crazy and if a professional made such a claim they would be in serious trouble.

It is about getting educated completely, but ridiculing people because they can’t afford a 100% organic diet is complete and utter hogwash. Sorry but there’s no science proving anything about eating 100% organic prevents cancer nor is there any evidence that it can reverse cancer. I’m not judging your financial status, but stating that people who cannot afford to eat 100% organic or even 80% organic shouldn’t be subjected to being belittled or called a bad parent. Nor does it mean they are uneducated or irresponsible – sorry that’s your personal opinion and you are entitled to it but calling others or labelling others with sick titles is just completely annoying to me and irresponsible.

As to not living in the US, and not having an idea about the true burden and cost of healthcare – shows really how much ignorance you have and how little to no idea you have of me or my family or connections to the US. You need to stop telling people how to live their lives and stating myths as facts when in all actuality there is nothing behind anything you say except a few notorious quack reports. For someone who claims to be so anti-processed stuff, yet then goes onto using stem cells directly onto their skin – is a little confusing as surely one is no more toxic than the other?

aprile wrote:
Actually TM - you are totally off the mark here. That was a comment made with the intent to magnify the importance of choosing foods wisely, particularly when someone is stricken with cancer. Also, don't twist my words - I have not ridiculed anyone. I have stated before that I do realize that cancer and other illnesses are caused by many other factors. BUT, you cannot minimize exposure to toxic chemicals in the form of pesticides. You cannot ignore chemicals found in cleaning products either(xeno-estrogens) which have been linked to an increase of estrogen in the body which is important when discussing breast cancer. GMOs which are experimental at best, have caused mammary cancers in lab animals. SERIOUSLY – people need to get educated and stop the insanity! Incidentally, I have found GMO produce with higher price tags than traditionally grown produce and people don’t even know what they’re buying. It’s about getting educated!!!

FWIW, I don't eat 100% organic myself, but pick and choose wisely the ones I feel are imperative, such as berries which are highly sprayed and extremely porous. Also, I cannot speak for the U.K., but in the U.S., many times certain organic produce items can cost less than traditionally grown produce. Now that chain stores such as Target are carrying organic produce, milk, eggs and frozen foods it’s easier and more affordable than ever before for more people. Even non-toxic cleaning supplies and laundry detergent can be found for less than regular toxic brands at Target.

Seriously there's no need to judge my financial status TM. For what it’s worth to ya, I work full time, do all my own housework, run my kid around, pay a ton of taxes, send my kid to Catholic school (our personal choice), my husband works two jobs to be able to afford this and still have a boatload of unpaid bills too, and guess what? Most of those unpaid bills are unpaid medical bills from improper coding for tests recommended by doctors, or being overbilled for a ten minute hospital visit for a pitching injury my son sustained, or bills just waiting to be paid, padded bills that need to be verified before paying them and there's only so much money in the monthly budget.

But to the point you made about my making the poor feel badly about not being able to afford better quality food for their children.. Yubs made a good point when she said that many people on Medicaid and food stamps purchase packaged food products (as I like to refer to them as) in lieu of real food. These packaged goods have virtually no nutritional value and can often times cost twice as much as REAL food. What I'm saying is that people need to get educated and make the proper choices within the confines of their budget. I worked in a supermarket in my twenties while paying for college and saw moms and dads who tried to purchas chips, soda and beer and all sorts of crap with their food stamps.

Also, since you don't live in the U.S., you have no idea about the true burden and “cost” of healthcare here. You also have no idea how much “cancer” costs all of us. So you see, my comment about the good farmer was taken completely out of context . We all need to take responsibility for our health and the health of our family, and not sit idly with our heads buried in the sand. ~ Aprile
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Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:42 am      Reply with quote
Precisely my point, I have US connections (family members). My brother lives in the US, and has two children who I see at least 3 times a year and we speak regularly, so the idea that I know nothing simply because I don’t live in the country is strange, but then what should I expect?

Tyger wrote:
aprile wrote:

Also, since you don't live in the U.S., you have no idea about the true burden and “cost” of healthcare here. You also have no idea how much “cancer” costs all of us. ~ Aprile


This is rather a silly statement - do you not think some of us have family in the US? I have heard a lot about the US system from mine. Plus when myself and an elderly family member were visiting NYC and she fell and gashed her chin, the costs she had to pay (the insurance co only refunded afterwards) were a lot more than she would have had to pay in the private sector in the UK for the same accident - and we do have a private sector/insurance here too, so you don't have to be treated by the NHS (although you still have to contribute to the NHS - after all no-one knows when they might need emergency treatment). Incidentally, most of the doctors in the private sector here also work for the NHS.
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Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:28 am      Reply with quote
sister sweets wrote:
I certainly don't expect anyone to admit this but if Keliu or Lacy are diagnosed I can assure you they would will look for other ways to put it in a different perspective.


Really? Amazing - because I don't really know how I'd react to being told I had cancer. I don't think anyone does until it happens. Many people say that they develop an inner strength - something that happens it times of crisis I guess. But if I had to imagine what I'd do - I would make sure I had a specialist I really trusted. I would talk to my GP because I like and trust his advice. Then I would talk to all my friends who have been through it - I'm sure they would offer lots of encouragement.

I've said to you before that I think chemo is a horrible treatment and I would hate to go through it. Just the hair falling out would freak me out. However, in our hospital system there are fantastic cancer support groups - so they would also be a source of information and encouragement.

All I can tell you is that all of my friends braved the treatment and came out the other side happy and healthy. My SIL had a double mastectomy - I had lunch with her two weeks ago and she looks fantastic. So if I was diagnosed with cancer, I will think of people like her - I will not be thinking of the negative, scaremongering opinions of you Sis.

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Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:48 am      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
Keliu wrote:
Correct - That's because, unlike every other developed nation in the world, the USA has no national health care system. The poor are left without care.


This is patently false. Please research before repeating things like this. The free health care system we have here for "poor people" here is called Medicaid. If you're old it's called Medicare.


If you have healthcare for the poor, could you explain to me why doctors in the US volunteer their services and go around the country and set up "clinics" in football stadiums where thousands of people have to queue for hours to get medical help. Some of whom have not seen a doctor for years and are seriously ill. This is similar to the work of Doctors Without Borders who attend to the sick in impoverished countries. But the US is the richest country in the world - and yet this is the only way some people can see a doctor. Unbelievable.

Further, why is it that so many Americans travel over the border to Canada and Mexico to buy prescription drugs and seek health care. They don't seem to mind making use of a health care system other than their own, at the expense of others.

Yubs, you say a national health care system is Marxist. Well Australia has just voted in a new Liberal government - I would just love you to tell them that they're Marxist. Nothing could be further from the truth. That's laughable.

You say that people who work don't want to pay for people who don't. But your taxes pay for a police and fire department - and those bodies service everyone - they're part of a civilised society - as health care also should be. Your taxes also pay for a defence force and millions go out the door in foreign aid. Well if you're providing foreign aid, why not help your own?

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Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:00 am      Reply with quote
Tyger wrote:
- and we do have a private sector/insurance here too, so you don't have to be treated by the NHS (although you still have to contribute to the NHS - after all no-one knows when they might need emergency treatment). Incidentally, most of the doctors in the private sector here also work for the NHS.


We also have private health insurance and private hospitals. However, recently there was much discussion on the news stating that the public hospitals actually have access to state of the art equipment and better staffing levels. Private hospitals are there to make money - profit can over-ride the purchase of new equipment and the need to increase staff levels.

One of my friends who recently suffered from a collapsed lung and who has private health cover said she was told by her specialist to go public because the care she would receive in the public hospital was top notch and could not be matched in a private hospital. And as Tyger stated above, our specialists also work in both private and public hospitals.

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Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:26 am      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Yubs wrote:
Keliu wrote:
Correct - That's because, unlike every other developed nation in the world, the USA has no national health care system. The poor are left without care.


This is patently false. Please research before repeating things like this. The free health care system we have here for "poor people" here is called Medicaid. If you're old it's called Medicare.


If you have healthcare for the poor, could you explain to me why doctors in the US volunteer their services and go around the country and set up "clinics" in football stadiums where thousands of people have to queue for hours to get medical help. Some of whom have not seen a doctor for years and are seriously ill. This is similar to the work of Doctors Without Borders who attend to the sick in impoverished countries. But the US is the richest country in the world - and yet this is the only way some people can see a doctor. Unbelievable.

Further, why is it that so many Americans travel over the border to Canada and Mexico to buy prescription drugs and seek health care. They don't seem to mind making use of a health care system other than their own, at the expense of others.

Yubs, you say a national health care system is Marxist. Well Australia has just voted in a new Liberal government - I would just love you to tell them that they're Marxist. Nothing could be further from the truth. That's laughable.

You say that people who work don't want to pay for people who don't. But your taxes pay for a police and fire department - and those bodies service everyone - they're part of a civilised society - as health care also should be. Your taxes also pay for a defence force and millions go out the door in foreign aid. Well if you're providing foreign aid, why not help your own?


Keliu, PLEASE stop reading the anti-U.S. "literature" you're getting a hold of from somewhere. Or at least vet the source that it's reliable. All I'll say is that your post is so off the mark I almost can't address it. If it didn't disturb me that you and others like you apparently believe it and apparently prefer to think that we're this horrible country full of horrible people, where millions of poverty stricken people live in shacks dying from various diseases, I would just chuckle to myself and ignore it.

The vast majority of our poor people live in government housing and get food stamps to buy almost whatever food they want, including sugary soda and chips. I think there was a movement to include fast food like McDonalds to our food stamps but someone put a stop to it. They have T.V., government-issued cell phones, and clothes. Their children go to school.

Unfortunate things do happen (you read about people living in their cars or whatever), and frequently these unfortunate things wind up in the media, where they are seized on and publicized heavily. Misfortune always attracts more attention than any of the good stuff that's going on. But in this country, the people who want assistance and are motivated to help themselves to get it in this country DO get it. Rest assured of that.

I have never heard of poor people in the U.S. queuing up for desperately needed healthcare in
Quote:
football stadiums.


Seriously?

I think sometimes the*are* "health fairs" (probably sponsored by corporations although I don't really pay attention) at football stadiums, but those are for everybody. They're like events where you can get bloodwork done for a low price and walk around a look at displays and get free stuff (pill organizers or whatever).

I absolutely agree with you about foreign aid and taking care of our own. If I was in charge, it would be different. Unfortunately, there has traditionally been a great deal of resistance to putting me in charge of my country. I've frankly never understood it, but it's there nonetheless. Wink So the best I can do is vote for the best of the worst of a crop of Boomer politicians who do not agree with much of what I believe. That's democracy. Globally I think we've got the worst political class in the history of the world, and this includes the U.S. We will all come to rue this bunch, I think.

As far as taxes...I never said taxes weren't necessary. They are. But private individuals (NOT huge corporations) and local agencies typically care more and do a better job at most things than federal government bureaucrats and local is where I'd prefer to see my tax money go. I'd also prefer to donate to private organizations where I was more sure of how my money was being used. Sadly, that's not what happens to my money.

As far as Marxist/Socialist forms of cthought, economics, and governance...if you don't know what those ideologies really are, and how they present in modern progressive liberal thought (not classically liberal, which is something entirely different), and the history of them...I'm can't explain them to you. You appear to be firmly set in your opinions, and I'm not going to change your mind about anything. I don't have time. If it's even possible, which I doubt. I've already spent too much time in this thread as it is. You can read up yourself on these subjects or not. I'm okay either way. But if you have questions about football stadium healthcare in the U.S and whatnot Laughing, and you're truly interested in my answers, you can PM me. If I get time I'll answer.

Finally, IMHO we should all remember that this thread was started about CANCER by a cancer survivor. It's turning into an unattractive political war. This should stop. I started contributing to it because I don't believe in universal healthcare and (against my better judgment) felt compelled to provide a counterpoint to the panegyrics to it I was seeing in this thread. I wish now that I hadn't. I'm stopping now with the politics. I I hope others can do the same and this thread can get back to its original subject.
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